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Transcript · All-In Podcast

Dylan Field: Is AI Replacing Designers?, Design is the New Code & Democratizing Creativity

40:32English, auto-generated captions7,275 words · 29 min read
In short · Summary by AI

Figma CEO Dylan Field discusses how AI is lowering the barrier to creating software and digital content, arguing that design, point of view, and brand become the new differentiators, the 'design is the new code' thesis. He also recounts Figma's failed $20 billion Adobe acquisition and the company's independent path since, and argues that humans still raise the creative ceiling through boldness and curiosity rather than AI alone.

Transcript

Intro and Design Thesis

0:00Dylanfield, welcome to the All In interview. >> Thank you. Thanks for having me. >> We are here in beautiful Napa, Yountville, California. >> Yeah, you're three drinks in. >> We're a couple drinks in and we decided to go on camera. >> Yeah, why not? >> Why not? Well, but what are you doing here?
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0:46>> I was uh for this event that you're going to be at tomorrow as well. >> I'm at an event tomorrow. >> same event and we were basically talking about design, product development, uh I stuck in a little bit of security, thought that'd be nice. Uh but overall, a lot about just like how product development is evolving and in my point of view, the thing you'd expect me to say, too, is that design is the new code.
1:10Uh and what's happening right now is as coding models get better, I'm not saying that you don't need engineers. We definitely need engineers at Figma. We love our engineers, but also the nature of programming is changing. And as it changes, the value is rising in terms of differentiation to the top. >> Right.
1:31>> That's design, that's brand, it's marketing as point of view, it's being bold, uh and it's like the emotional reaction you're able to elicit. Uh and I think that a lot of people are missing that. We also talked a lot about like AI and just kind of like >> Okay, so you did a thing on stage today. You talked with Nikesh.
1:49>> I'm just recapping the interview here. Sorry. >> it's great. Like it's good. Like we can fast forward. But I want to back up. You're the CEO of Figma, publicly traded. Maybe you can just give the quick elevator pitch on Figma and when did you start the business? >> Yeah, we started Figma back in August 2012.

Figma's Origins and Mission

2:05And the quick pitch is this is where we want to make it so that the best best teams in the world can design and create and build the world's best software. Uh we're also used for all sorts of stuff. So marketing, uh advertising, slides, whiteboarding, diagramming, uh you know, you name it. Like if it's visual at all, someone's probably doing it in Figma even if it's not meant for that.
2:30>> People call it a design software. Is that a fair characterization or does it not capture the full spectrum of what the service is? >> No, I mean I think that design is really our center and our core. Uh and like when I'm in a product review and talking with the team, we talk about designers. We talk about what they want.
2:47Uh design is also a term that's like so interesting because there's like a hundred definitions of design. >> Right. >> I I think about a lot of a lot about the definition of like it's uh maybe creativity meets problem solving. Um but there's like so many others you can find. And then also design can refer to everything from interior to industrial to product design to brand design and so on.
3:11And so people think about a lot of things they think about design. >> Just to get caught up on the history of the business. You started in 2012, you raised some venture money, the business takes off, you're selling enterprise software. You're doing really well. And then Adobe offers to buy the business for $20 billion.

Adobe Acquisition Blocked

3:29>> Uh yeah, correct. Quite the fast forward. >> What year was that? >> Uh it was a few years back now. And >> I'm skipping through literally building the business. Like >> Yeah, you're like uh you know, 10 11 years in. But the um No, I mean we uh have always respected Adobe, still do. And I mean a generational incredible company that like started everything from printing to making Photoshop what it is and like the entire graphic design revolution.
3:55>> Uh by the way, I was on Adobe Photoshop since 1990. I did graphic design >> pre-layers? >> Actually, you and I haven't talked about >> pre-layers? >> Yes. So, I did graphic design pre-layers as a kid on computers and I did it as like a service for like people in the neighborhood and small businesses and stuff.
4:14>> So cool. So, how did you get access to it? >> like I at my school and then I had Well, I was on a Macintosh. I got the first Mac original 1984. And um I was always fascinated with graphic design. It was like something I loved doing as a literally a hobby. You and I actually never talked about this.
4:31And then I used like Bryce 3D and all these early 3D tools and then when Kai's Power Tools came out >> Kai's Power Tools is really cool. >> It reinvented Adobe Photoshop. And for me, it was like this incredible like expansion of creative potential on what you could do with Photoshop. So, I've been a big Photoshop fan since the earliest days and a big user as a personal hobby and like I made money on the side doing graphic design and stuff.
4:53>> That's awesome, man. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean, Photoshop, of course, is like a product that is very mature. I mean, maybe beyond mature, too, in that it has so many different parts of it that have been added over the years. Uh which I think is the nature of a lot of software. Uh it gets more bloated over time if you're not careful.
5:10But, there's just so much that's possible with it. And uh you know, Adobe as a company has been very inventive. So, I've always had a respect since I was a kid, too. >> Totally. >> And it felt like it was a time when, you know, we could join and not be totally absorbed. Uh like if we were smaller, I felt like maybe we would just kind of dissipate.
5:32And yeah, we we signed the agreement, we said yes, and then uh various world governments decided that they didn't like it. >> Right. >> And uh >> Like anti-trust got involved and they blocked the deal. >> Yeah, I mean, it's it anti-trust is kind of like a broad way to refer to it, but you have the United States, European Union, CMA.
5:52And you know, it's very different vibe in a few years ago than today. >> Adobe would be taking out a big competitor. >> They said a lot of things. But, the I think most important part for us was that we just kept putting our foot on the gas. I mean you know, I thought it would be like sort of we would just go right through.
6:12And as soon as a month or two in, it was clear that was not the case. >> Yeah. >> It kind of became okay, like we got to like really power through as an organization here. >> Yeah. >> And ship and build like the next stuff. >> Yeah. >> Because if we don't power through and keep our foot on the gas, you know, what's on the other side?

All-Hands and Employee Decisions

6:26We don't know what's on the other side. Uh we got to make sure everything's fine no matter what. >> So this is 20 >> 23. How many employees did you have? >> Uh I want to say it was about 500 to 1,200. I have to double-check. >> Okay, so when I heard this story, I was fascinated by and I think I saw you in 2024, March of '24.
6:45I don't know if you remember I mentioned this to you. But for me, the story of telling 1,200 employees of a startup we have one of the most incredible exits in history. 20 billion-dollar exit of this company and it's not going to happen. What was the all-hands like when you get in front of everyone and you tell everyone guys, this isn't going to happen.
7:08And how do you get everyone to realign on building a business and continuing forward when it feels like the floor for some people may have felt like the floor fell out from under them? >> Well, I think you have to remember the length of the regulatory review. Which definitely needs to be fixed somehow because it's, you know, if you're in a situation where it's actually anti-competitive.
7:31Which I don't I still don't believe the Adobe thing was, for what it's worth. A lot of people, you know, on the internet probably would say it is. Uh like or at least they did back then, but I thought their arguments were poor. And they were fighting past battles. Not looking at the future and what this all would become.
7:51Uh but the um and I say that not because I'm not like I'm stoked to be independent, too. I'm stoked to be running Figma. That was the plan for Adobe was just run Figma. Uh either way, uh running Figma, I'm happy. Independently, we do move fast. I'm glad I'm grateful for that, but uh going back to your question, it's like we had 16 months of regulatory review.
8:1316 months of regulatory review for any company is punishing. And uh in an actual anti-competitive situation, that could be like very destructive for one of the parties. Or both. Um and I think Roomba's a great example, actually. Roomba uh was going to be acquired. >> Small deal. >> Uh yeah, it wasn't like a crazy deal.
8:33>> Small deal, >> so they did not let it go through. And because of that, Roomba went bankrupt. And the entire market at the time basically went to China. Uh [snorts] so from the United States standpoint, it made no sense. >> Right. >> Anyway, I go on a tangent, but I do think it's an important point.
8:49There's some policy stuff here that's like when you go for the ideals idealism, it doesn't always practically like help America. But it's also an important point, which is >> almost all markets now are more expansive than they have been historically. And nearly anything that looks like oh, it's the market, that's not actually the market.
9:10The market is AI. >> Yeah, I mean, exactly. >> is this massive market and this deal is 1% and 0.2% of the market. >> like do you define the market looking back at the history, which is like the only logical way you do it as a regulator, or do you do it as a technologist looking forward? Uh and that could be very different in terms of how you think about markets by sizes, but um anyway, it's all hands.
9:37It was actually the first day of a winter break, uh which is pretty funny. So, we had told everybody okay, uh you know, enjoy the holidays. We actually have way less traffic during the holidays cuz we're work product. And that was a Friday, and then um realized sort of over the weekend, okay, this is going to come to a conclusion.
10:01And on Monday morning, uh sent a message to everybody saying, "Hey, all hands at noon." And uh dial in if you like, and here's what's going on, and here's like the full sort of uh details. And so, first of all, so much of the company showed up. That was awesome just to see the turnout. You know, first day of break, really.
10:22And secondly, I'd say just like the mood was relief because it wasn't about relief of not Adobe, it was relief of not having ambiguity. To have ambiguity that long is really intense. And people have to kind of have two worlds in their head, they're not exactly sure the future holds. So, that was the immediate mood.
10:38It was just kind of like lighter. And then from there, uh yeah, I think that the question you asked is right. How do you make sure everyone's all in? And the way that we did it was we said, "Look, I I just kind of put a video out into the company Slack and emailed everybody and said, 'Hey, if you're tired after working really hard, if you're someone who joined during this period thinking you're going to go work at Adobe, and actually the startup thing is not for you, like please know, we're going to be

Anthropic Claude Design Question

11:13working very hard, hustling hard, and no shame, like we're still on good terms. If you want to leave, here is a few months' pay. Uh and you're welcome to just let us know, we'll make it super easy. >> [snorts] >> And from there, uh you know, you six months before you can reapply. That's the only condition.
11:36>> [snorts] >> Uh after six months, you can reapply and we'll uh re-interview you.' And it was a pretty small percentage of people that took us up on that. But overall, it was healthy, and some people actually ended up doing total career pivots, like in wild ways, uh went on different life paths. Like I I think it was healthy for everyone.
11:59>> You continue to build the business, it grows, you go public. And I just want to fast-forward to the earlier this year. You guys announced a partnership with Anthropic, Claude design. >> Uh we not quite. We We've been working with Anthropic as a partner and Anthropic uh separately announced Claude design, yes.
12:19>> Oh, sorry. Yeah, that's right, but you had a connector with them that you announced earlier in the year. >> Yeah, we have an MCP. We are partnered with many companies, but yeah. >> Then they announced Claude design. Was that surprising to you when they did that? And how worried were you when they came out with Claude design relative to what you guys were offering?
12:37Cuz the market looked at it and said, "Oh my god, Figma's dead. Claude is going to crush Figma." >> I mean, the nature of online discourse right now is uh we're so back, it's so over. And it's just a a cycle, right? I mean, how many times have you been all over uh in the last like month? >> Yes. >> Probably, you know, a bunch times I don't even know about.
12:58>> Yes. >> And everyone was kind of used to that at that point cuz you know, you when when you kind of die uh so many times and then you're actually like not dead. Right. You kind of realize at some point maybe maybe this is like not the truth. Social media is actually like not reality, but um yeah, I I uh was overall surprised at the way that kind of communication happened.
13:24Uh I think that you know, look, everybody wants to do good usually. I mean, there's some exceptions, but for the most part that's that's what I assume for people. They want to win, they want to do good. And I think that organizations scaling really fast, Anthropic, like are there any examples of organizations scaling that fast ever?
13:49>> Ever. >> Can get very confused and um mixed up internally. And due to that, weird stuff can happen. And I think that it's just the case that yeah, we're on the other side of kind of like a weird bout of uh communication there. >> Did it Did it affect your business? >> Oh, no. Uh like not that not any degree that was like you know, significant.
14:16>> Cuz I read your quarterly report after that announcement, you guys grew 48% year-over-year. And the business basically accelerated its growth. >> Yeah. >> So, I'm looking at that and I'm, you know, this is when everyone had the SaaS-pocalypse >> Mhm. >> thesis in general, and I was a big subscriber to SaaS-pocalypse.

SaaS Debate and Cursor

14:34But I do think that there's a bunch of ways to distinguish SaaS companies, one of which I think is founder-led. And I think that there's user experience that matters a lot embedded user experience and the ability to kind of build from there, especially if you know how to use AI to accelerate and reinvent your business as a founder, particularly.
14:50But your business accelerated. >> Yep. Um, no, it's been continued to do well. And I think that Look, the hard part about model companies and product is like, what is the product? Is it the model? Is it the UI on top? Is it some hybrid of both? If it's a hybrid, how is it weighted? And uh in any case, >> You're talking about like an Anthropic and Open AI.
15:21>> Yeah, I mean >> Gemini. >> Like whether it's a harness for coding or it's a product like CoDesign which you just mentioned. I think it's easy to mistake model progress for product progress. >> Right. >> The reality is a tool like Figma, you know, has taken a very long time to build. Uh and a very long time to make sure that we get the workflows right for our users and we still have work to do.
15:43Our users will tell you that. Uh and I and we're always trying to make it better. So, I think that like it's it's sort of um not surprising that it wasn't an instant hit or something when there's actually quite a lot of work on the just core user journey workflow side that you have to do to meet the needs of professionals.
16:02Now, they're uh they made CoDesign into a product that is is broad. So, it's trying to do all these things like you'll see like posters and stuff as well, like graphic design scenarios, I believe, when you go to their homepage. And And like maybe they'll do well in some areas and on others like >> Mhm.
16:20I'm not bullish or bearish on the product. I think it's just like hard to make good design tools for professionals. >> Yeah, there's a lot of things to design. And a lot of categories of design. >> of it is like an instrument. You have to get the feel right. You have to get the mechanics right. >> Yeah.
16:34>> And we've stressed every detail of that and have had a lot of feedback over the years about what people like and don't like. It depends on where they're coming from. It depends on uh their task and sort of like what they're trying to overall do. And there's so many scenarios. But overall uh you know, I think that um there are more modes for software than are implied by the SaaS-pocalypse and it's not like software as a category is binary good or bad.
17:03Uh there are plenty of other ways that you can um make sure that you're able to sustain yourself long-term and have a growing business long-term as a software company or app layer company. Uh and you part of it is yes, if you're as specialized as possible on a target audience and you know your audience and you're building for them, that is something that matters.
17:29>> Right. >> Uh and I think a great example of this is Cursor. Um Cursor like by all means should not have grown the way they did. You've got all these Frontier Labs that are chasing them with their own models before Cursor had a model of any kind. But yet Cursor really obsessed over the user. They saw their own corners.
17:49They strategized. They made sure they were doing the right thing for the customer. And they've had an incredible success. >> Yeah. >> And I I think it's amazing and I think it's an example that will be repeated uh across many different types of companies. >> SaaS is not dead. >> Well, I I think that it's not true that all SaaS companies are fine and it's also not true that all SaaS companies are dead.
18:13>> Fair enough. >> I'm going all in.
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18:44Learn more at conservationfund.org. >> [music] >> In a world of AI, agentic AI, I have this capacity to prompt as a human and say, "I want to make something that looks like, feels like, and does X." And this magical technology takes off and does it. And I end up with a product. Sometimes the product is great.

Human Creativity in AI Era

19:18Sometimes the product sucks. But it's improving the ability for these tools to do that. Historically, I would have needed a product manager, a designer, a bunch of engineers to do the actual building of the product, whether it's a software product or a hardware product. Increasingly, though, it seems like AI is doing more and more of those tools.
19:41Can you just give me your view on the future of human creativity in this era, this future era that we're waltzing into, the singularity we're falling into? Where does human creativity play a role? And where do the gaps still need to be filled for taking human creativity to the realization moment? >> It's the case, I think, that uh we're lowering the floor with AI, making it so that all of the production, whether it's code or it's uh motion, video, design, whatever you name it, uh
20:20if it's digital, you're lowering the floor to make it happen. Um everyone can be part of that and it's more democratized. Ironically, and I I used to believe uh even a few years ago I said it at our annual user conference Config, I said the ceiling will be raised by AI. You'll be able to do greater things before.
20:44That was wrong. Uh the ceiling has stayed the same. AI is not raising the ceiling. Humans are raising the ceiling, though. Uh the creatives, the designers out there, when they choose to focus, invest their time, and to be bold, and try to do something no one else has ever done before, that's when we see the ceiling raised.
21:04And at point uh it's a question of do you care about being in the center of distribution? Do you care about like a mean or average result? Uh is that sufficient for your task? Or do you need something that shows that you care, that you took the time to actually like go make this thing? Do you need to go and be beyond uh what is the minimum bar?
21:32And in the world of software design and product, I mean, we're seeing exponentially more software than ever before. It's exactly what you'd predict. The exponential continues. Uh you look at App Store uh numbers. The App Store numbers are exactly that same exponential. And we're seeing that the usage and utilization of apps flat.
21:55So, people are using just the amount same amount of apps, but the amount of apps that you can get, it's like bigger than ever and growing. And I think it's just speaks to, okay, there's a need to differentiate yourself if you're building any kind of software. Well, how do you do that? It's not code cuz anyone can create code now.
22:14That's not the hard part anymore. So, my view is design is the new code. It's the layer above. You have to make it so that your design is differentiated. And you have to have a point of view, and a good brand and marketing. And the point of view I think is the part that is probably missed the most. >> That's the human part.
22:32>> It's not just the human part, it's also the part that humans are uncomfortable having. Uh I think that folks are scared to say something that's not consensus. >> It's so true. I mean, this is what the greatest artists, the greatest business leaders, the greatest politicians have always demonstrated is the willingness to to be brave to say and do the things that no one else would say or do, and that's what changes the world.
22:58>> And I would also add comedians to the mix, too. >> Comedians. >> Comedians are underappreciated. >> I had Tony Hinchcliffe at our thing last year, cuz he's like one of the few guys that is willing to say and do things nowadays in the cancel culture era. >> But comedians often like speak truth in a way that people otherwise couldn't hear.
23:13>> Willing to say things. >> And uh it's not about political correctness, it's about do you have a message that can rise above the noise, and do so in a sustained way? Because look at social media right now. Like, every unique point of view, everything interesting, it gets diffused into like the ether of social media instantly.
23:31And so, unless you've got uh something that allows you to kind of keep generating content and a message that is really uh evergreen because it's so outside of the overton window, you're not going to be able to actually break through and have any attention. And the attention economy is ruthless. >> Is this also what human creativity is?
23:57If you're not doing something that's never been done before, you're not creating something, you're mimicking something, you're copying something, you're xeroxing something. But to do something new is to create. And newness requires doing things that have never been done before. >> definition. >> By definition.
24:15>> And uh therefore you are operating outside of this distribution of training. It's not even about operating outside the mean of the distribution, which is where you start if you're just prompting without any like any kind of advanced scaffolding around it. Uh but you're actually doing something that is breaking through and it's unique.
24:35And I do think that will be rewarded by the market. Everyone's going to see it. I think it's even rewarded by the tension market of organizations. I'm already hearing from so many like, "Ugh, I got another deck made by AI today." >> Totally. >> And I don't even know if the person who made it I like don't know if they wrote it.

Trust, Authenticity and AI Labels

24:55Do they even know what's in their deck? And at Figma we actually made it so that uh it was just a simple thing, but we said, "Hey, if you are using AI in your writing of any kind, just put at the top written with AI." Very simple, very easy to follow. Uh and, you know, people made jokes about it internally, but people do it.
25:19And it makes it so that we can all trust that when we see something, we know that it's been cared for enough that it's like worth your time to process. And I I think that we're going to see some bifurcation here around trust. Uh and one way to get trust is to do something with your hands. The other point that's important is if you have a vision or if you have a point of view in your head of how something should be designed or look aesthetically or from experiential standpoint,
25:50you're I I think it's great to start with building with AI. It gives you something to get past like the blank page, blank canvas problem. You can then react to it and say, "Here are all the things I don't like. I'm going to I'm going to go fix these things. I'm going to change them up." Cuz it's really helpful to have a back and forth.
26:09But if you don't if you have your own vision and you're trusting AI to implement it, you're doing it through the lens of AI. And like AI has kind of like its own distribution. >> The model fit by it, yeah. >> Yeah. And so you're not going to get exactly what you want. Now, if you are able to do both, and that's what we're trying to enable in Figma, make code a material on the canvas, make it so that you can go start by building.
26:34You can build a thing if you like. Uh but also when you want to think and work with your hands, you can do that, too. >> Right. >> go back and forth rapidly. >> Right. I remember the early days of Photoshop just having been a user avid user from the early days. People freaked out when layers happened and then they freaked out when all the filters came out and when Kai's power tools came out and everyone was like, "What's the role of the photographer anymore?
26:57It's like you're destroying the art of photography, the creativity of photography." But it unleashed a new era of creativity cuz now these new artists emerged that could use these filters and use these layering tools and capabilities to reimagine what's possible on a canvas. And it was basically a new toolkit.
27:19It doesn't mean that the old creatives mapped perfectly to the new creative system and tools. But there was an explosion in creativity and human potential that arose from this and we pushed boundaries in all sorts of ways. Feels like we might be entering that era again. >> I'm a big believer in that and I think that part of it is what I described about market dynamics.
27:43In order to get attention, in order to get engagement, in order to get people to care, you have to do something new. Uh you have to actually be daring and try things that are bold. The resistance to change is real and there's a great thing you can Google actually for your point. Look up the mailing list for when layers was introduced.
28:03And it's like people going, "This is the worst thing ever." Uh and you can find it. If you Google, it's like on a uh mailing list that's publicly available. And you can see all the reactions. >> Totally. >> Um but obviously it became the future. And I think that uh there's also still photographers in the world who are doing incredible work, but the bigger disruption, if we're going to be real, it was the camera phone.
28:28Uh that was what made it so that people stopped buying cameras that were dedicated to the task of photography because the best camera is the one that's on you. And [snorts] started treating photography in a different way with Instagram and their camera phone. Uh so it transformed for a lot of people and I can't tell you if it's better or worse as a result.
28:47Uh but there was change. >> There's one view on human creativity that human creativity is basically connecting dots in the unconscious that you've had seen or experienced all of these things in your life or in your set of inputs, sensory inputs and from those inputs you connect dots and then you extrapolate a forward view of things that hasn't perhaps been seen in the world before.
29:16Do you agree with that view on creativity and is it distinct from actually what AI does? And again, I want to go back to the uniqueness of the human in an AI era. >> Well, I I think that um one thing that happens with humans is they're always seeking novelty. Like our reward function is different than like an AI's.
29:38Also our loss function. Like if I was to open this bottle of water and splashed all over you and you got mad at me, like you bet I'm not going to do that again. But an AI like, you know, with RL you got like really tell it a bunch of times uh that you know, you don't do that. Um >> Robot, stop kicking me.
29:57>> Yeah, well, and maybe that'll change with architectures over time, but like overall the brain is different uh than the current systems that we've made with AI. And I I think that uh it's unknown. We don't know much about neuroscience uh overall. I'd love to get to the point where like we all know more about neuroscience, but something is fundamentally different there when it comes to creativity.
30:22And I also think design is different than creativity. It's not just creativity, it's also problem solving like I mentioned earlier. And the combination of the two is I I just find it fascinating because you have a user, you're trying to solve their needs, you're trying to do so in a way that stands out as creative and it connects with them.
30:42And also, like you have to connect to wider systems. The marketing and brand, the culture, the business problems, uh and so on and and like holding all that in your head at different levels of abstraction while trying to like deliver a screen or a flow uh that like from a search space standpoint can be a combinatorial explosion is just pretty cool.
31:06It's pretty fascinating. >> I'm actually personally really excited about the idea of reinventing existing art form and media where AI can enable more dynamic generation, where the creator steps up a level, sets a bunch of parameters, but doesn't actually necessarily render the final product, but the final product, sort of like in a video game, is rendered on the fly with the user in front of it.
31:28But the creator, the creative team behind a video game, for example, is building all of the object. They're building the storyline. They're building the narrative flow. And the realization of that is much more dynamic, but I feel like it's going to find its way. It's going to leech its way into many more totally different media.
31:47>> we have products around that, too. Like in Figma design, you can have you know, generative tools and shaders where you can do very much that. Or we have a product called Weave. And Weave is basically a node-based system. You can connect model outputs into uh other inputs and such. And the whole idea is like it's not bad to generate with AI, but you need a way to craft that clay.

Weave and Creative Tools

32:12You need a way to mold it. And uh with Weave, people do like the most amazing video and photo work uh and overall just like the the outcomes that are achievable with it are incredible. Uh so yeah, I think that if you've got the intention, if you actually care to do the work, um you can always get to a better result.
32:36And people, you know, new model drops, there's like this AI psychosis moment that people are in for a few days. And it's like, I think also aided by algo feeds, the best results rise to the top. Everyone's like, this model is everything. And then a few days later, it's it's okay, okay, I know the kind of like main tropes of the model.
32:57Um, and you adapt fast. Like, the novelty's gone. It no longer is a thing that's that's kind of like rewarding you or firing off your dopamine system or whatever. And instead, you're like, okay, well, yeah, it always does that thing. How do I move past it? And that seems to be the continued loop we're in.
33:16Uh, which is sort of fascinating because models keep getting so good when it comes to these formal domains, math, cybersecurity. Uh, like the IQ points just stack and stack and stack. And then, for creativity and for design, it's very incremental progress overall. Uh, maybe that will change at some point, but I think the fact that these are non-verifiable domains has something to do with it.
33:42>> And it's probably the fact that maybe that is the human role in the AI toolkit, which is conceive, create, design, and let the AI do more of the work, but it gives you the ability to do much more work. Any art or media that you're particularly excited about or interested in that's kind of emerging right now?
34:04>> You know, I I find it fascinating, uh, when people do sort of like new AI experiments. For example, uh, it puts it in the media category. Um, there was a uh, designer artist type that made a webpage the other day, uh, and it was like a letter to Figma, actually. So, it caught my attention cuz I was, you know, getting the Figma hit on the algo feed.
34:31>> [snorts] >> And every time you moved away from it, uh, and came back, it got slightly more degraded. And it was basically a comment on attention. But thought that was really cool. >> Oh, cool. That was a piece of art. >> I thought so. It was a webpage. >> Yeah. >> But like I thought that the technique and the way that they went about it was really neat and like not something that many others have done.
34:57I've seen a few other things like that, but overall I thought it was a very cool way to do it. Um it was also just a very well-written letter. Uh I liked the letter, too. But I Yeah, I see stuff like this um and you know, back in the day I remember um seeing people do like NFT art with AI when NFTs were a thing, you know, so it's like 2019 or something like that.
35:21But the way they did it sometimes was uh really remarkable. I mean, Holly Herndon's work around uh taking her voice and making it so that her voice was something that people could use in an almost open-source way. Uh that was quite incredible and ahead of its time. Um and I think this like sort of play between uh what is me, what is the collective, and what is it that is unique and ownable versus what is not uh is is quite fascinating.
35:56I've always been fascinated by that intersection. >> Yeah, that's cool. Just as we wrap up, a lot of the commentary on AI that's negative is that it takes away human agency, human potential gets capped out. Can you just talk a little bit about your view on the the potential of every human to be a creative, to be a designer, and how AI might perhaps magnify every every person, not just the quote creatives where they're in some elite class of artists in some special building, but the ability for every human to

Everyone Can Create

36:28create and the ability for every human to design and produce things in the world, and where you sit with that right now. I I think it's even broader. I think it's it's um as a human in general, pre-AI, post-AI, you have a choice. Do you want to consume or create? Do you want to take the easy path or do you want to like climb the mountain?
36:51And what I'm seeing happen right now a lot is people are letting AI think for them. Uh less at Figma but like more just like in my interactions with the world, uh I just see a lot of this at the moment. And that's one path you can take but the other one is actually use AI to further your understanding of the world, to learn, to do things you never would have dared to do before because they were would have taken so much time to learn or it's so hard.
37:20Uh and to really expand like the potential ways that you can like live as a human. Uh that to me, the latter, is the interesting part. >> Yeah. >> The former, like why would I want something else to think for me? Like my entire life has been about like figuring out how to think. And um I don't know, I just hope that people use AI to create good and to like go be a force for it rather than just kind of like joining the hive mind.
37:52>> Everyone can be a maker. >> Everyone can be a maker. Everyone can go do both things. Uh it's about willpower and it's about curiosity. And if you're curious and you're willing to do the work uh I believe >> your truth. >> Yeah, exactly. And then I think that you can go do incredible things. Uh we will probably see a vastly different setup in the future where things that we can't imagine are possible and things we take for granted are no longer in sort of the realm of what humans do

Math Breakthroughs and Mystery

38:27every day. Uh how exactly that will look, I don't think either of us can tell. But it is the case that both were on the precipice of great change and nothing hit home for me more than the math drop last night uh from OpenAI of 700 plus papers on all sorts of very famous problems. Uh that that was a show of something.
38:52Uh I had a lot of emotions. I don't I don't know how to process them. >> thought it was the greatest day of discovery in human history. >> Oh, I mean, factually, yes. >> Yes. And also like something about it was like brilliant and exciting and something about it was kind of sad. >> Yeah. >> And I I don't know how to articulate the sadness, but it felt like we lost something and gained something at the same time.
39:14>> know. I lift my head up and I look at the next frontier and I think that the frontiers are brighter and wider and more accessible than they've ever been. So, I'm pretty excited. >> Oh, I'm excited, too. And I think that the world will look amazing and uh I'm an optimist. I think there's going to be a lot of challenges and we'll figure them out.
39:31>> Yeah. >> Uh how exactly and what the challenges will be in their full form, we have yet to see. But yeah, I do think that like math is uh something that somehow has a quality of mystery like an unsolved problem. Uh is it you know, is this conjecture true or false? How? Why? Uh grappling with that mystery is something that is special.
39:57And uh I I'm both excited for the progress and like all the things it'll make possible. And also like I don't think it's wrong to like mourn the loss of a little mystery. >> Right. Fair enough. Dylan, this has been a great chat. Should we go over another drink? >> Sounds good. >> Let's do it. >> Thanks, man.
40:11>> Thanks. >> I'm going all in.
40:28I'm going all in.

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