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Sophia Bush, the actress known for playing Brooke Davis on One Tree Hill, sits down with Alex Cooper to discuss her memoir, her early career, the sexualization she faced on set, the workplace harassment by her showrunner and the group of women who organized against him, her past relationships including Chad Michael Murray, and her marriage to Ashlin Harris. The conclusion is that women should trust their intuition, that self-exploration is ongoing, and that it is never too late to want more.
- Bush recounts leaving USC early in 2003 to take the One Tree Hill role after initially planning a medical career and then a journalism path, with her parents opposed to her acting.
- She describes pushing back on the producers' push to sexualize Brooke Davis, including a dispute over being shot topless in a nude bra for a hot tub scene.
- Bush says she and other cast members were harassed by their boss, and that the cast's coordinated response helped hold him accountable, with 18 women signing a collective statement.
- She reflects on how cast members were kept apart by the showrunner, and how the women built a support network by showing up together to dinners he set up with new hires.
- Bush discusses her relationship with Chad Michael Murray, her friend Hilarie Burton's earlier warning not to date him, and how she later learned their boss had been spreading stories between the women.
- She talks about realizing she had long dissociated from her own intuition and overperformed at work, and that recognizing red flags came only after years of therapy and self-reflection.
- Bush shares how her relationship with Ashlin Harris began as a friendship that turned romantic during a difficult period in both their divorces, and how the media speculation affected them.
- The episode closes with the couple's small backyard wedding, which Bush describes as the most perfect day of her life and a final step in healing.
- 0:03Opening and Daddy Gang Greeting
- 3:46Early Life and Acting Beginnings
- 7:25Joining One Tree Hill as Brooke
- 13:07Brooke's Early Character and Growth
- 16:48Sexualization and Pushback on Set
- 24:53Impact on Public Perception
- 29:17Standing Up to the Showrunner
- 35:07Trust, Friendship, and Chad Michael Murray
- 48:12Intuition, Overwork, and Red Flags
- 59:53Marriage to Grant and Ashlin Harris
- 1:21:33Proposal, Wedding, and Closing Reflections
Opening and Daddy Gang Greeting
0:03What is up, Daddy gang? It is your founding father, Alex Cooper, with Call Her Daddy. >> Sophia Bush, welcome to Caller Daddy. Thank you. >> Wait, can I can we say it together? >> Yes. What are we saying? >> I really want to do a What's Up Daddy gang like so bad. Vanessa and I did it the whole way here in the car.
0:25>> Okay. Wait. Do you want to do it together? Yeah, I do. I want to do it together. >> Like like we're at cheer camp. Not that I ever went, but >> Yeah. But but you know how to be a cheerleader. Okay. Ready? >> What's up, daddy gang? Thank you. I just I needed to do it one day. >> It's like literally become something I feel like it's like I don't even think about when I say that, but I guess to other people, it's so something I say all the time.
0:46I also don't know if you know there's like a niche angle of it for either gender non-conforming or like hot mask lesbians because there's there's like such a daddy swag and then it turns into a little bit of like when there's a group of them people are like it's a daddy gang. you you know what I love so much is when I started this show way back when I'm like wow the name had such a different meaning and it has evolved for me and even the name Daddy I really do appreciate like the different iterations
1:17that I've gone through and the way that I identify with it but I love that you're walking in here being like oh this means a lot to me this means a lot to me >> it feels it feels right >> you mean a lot to me okay because if I told myself that I was going to get to sit down with the woman behind first of all so much that you've done in your career but if you take like young Alex >> Mhm.
1:40the legend, the icon behind Brooke Davis and what she meant for women and my younger self. Like I was the biggest One Tree Hill fan episode one through and through and I'm so excited obviously because now to have you here and you have a memoir coming out there's so many highs and there's so many lows and the way that you really bring us through that journey of your life.
2:05You did such an incredible job. >> And now I just can't help but ask like why now? Like what? How did you know this was the right time? >> You know that adage, let go or be dragged? Like your book drags you? And a book, you think you know what it's going to be and then it drags you and it's like, no, we're going here.
2:24And you're like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. And the more writers I've talked about this with, the more people who have shared the journey of their first book, they're like, "Oh, it's Baptism by Fire is like mellow compared to writing your first book." I can't imagine cuz I feel like it's like you probably went through so many different versions of yourself when you were writing this.
2:46And also, it almost is probably, yes, cathartic and therapeutic, but also, like you said, it's also dragging you where you're like, "But I didn't want to write about this." But then it calls you and you have to write about it. Are you nervous? Are you excited? Like >> I am everything. >> I I have never been on more of an emotional roller coaster.
3:05I have days where I'm like, I did it >> and it's beautiful and I've held it and I'm so proud of it. And I have days where I'm like, don't do it. Don't, you know, I'll just I'll buy every copy and burn them and chapter and why does anybody do this and who lets us do this and why why does anybody do this?
3:19Like it's it's crazy. No, it's I I was thinking about that like you share so much in this book and there's so much I don't [laughter] >> and you're going to tell me offline, but let's get into it because >> one of the chapters in this memoir is called It Was the Best of Times, It Was the Worst of Times, and it is about One Tree Hill.
Early Life and Acting Beginnings
3:46>> Yeah. >> And so I want to just kind of like go back to the beginning. What did your life even look like when you first got the call to do this audition that changed your life? It was so, how do I even begin to describe the time? I mean, it was 2003. First of all, I I didn't think I wanted to be an actor.
4:11I thought I wanted to be a heart surgeon. I wanted to go to medical school. I love I do really love science. And then as I was sort of making my way through high school. I was like weird. I don't love chemistry. I think that's pretty important for [gasps] med school, but I really like biology. I don't know.
4:32Like I was sort of in that space. And then I had to do a play. I was so pissed. I thought I was going to outsmart the school system and be like, "Oopsy, I left my theater requirement for the semester that I'm on the volleyball team, so you're not going to make me stop playing sports, right?" And I remember the head mistress of my school who was so fabulous looking at me with this smirk and being like, "Sounds like a you problem."
4:55And I was like, "Oo, this is a lesson in accountability. I really wasn't prepared for K." and the experience of essentially taking a book, a story that I loved to get lost in and bring it to life with other people. I was like, do people know about this? Do they know how amazing this is? >> Like, I actually like doing this.
5:18What a concept. >> So, it was this big shift for me. And then I went to USC. My parents did not want me to be an actor. I didn't enjoy the acting program. It felt too small. I transferred into the journalism school. They were like, "Thank God, she's on her way. She's going to give it up. She's going to have a serious job.
5:37She's going to work on the news." And then I booked this pilot, like big pilot for ABC. Jeff Nordling, like handsome mess of a dad from Big Little Lies, was playing my dad. Loved working with him. Pilot winds up not getting picked up. It's just it's not what they're looking for for the slate. And I get a call because the same production company that made that pilot had produced the pilot Ravens, which I'd read and I'd been synthesized for Payton and I'd laughed cuz I was like, you
6:11guys, like I am not I'm not punk rock. [laughter] Okay. >> Okay. So, that was like so far for you. >> Like that's not I I could read. I'm never going to book that part. Like it's just not my essence. And in the time between when they were gearing up for the show, they realized their four lead kids all had pretty tragic stuff going on and they wanted somebody who felt fun.
6:38So season one, you know, episode one after the pilot, they're introducing the new girl and they asked me to read for her and I was like, I went to an all girls school. Like what's a cheerleader? I've seen Bring It On a Hundred times, but I've never cheered. I don't know. I'll figure it out. And I went in to read for this part, literally being like, "Well, I have a I have a skirt that kind of looks like a tennis skirt, which I guess could pass for a cheer skirt.
7:04They're pleated, maybe." Like just like a clueless little baby of a human with like goo behind my ears, no idea what was going on. And through the process, I went, you know, call back after call back. And then they were like, "Do you want to move to North Carolina next Thursday?" >> And you're at USC.
Joining One Tree Hill as Brooke
7:25You're living a normal college experience. >> I was the philanthropy chair of my sorority. >> Oh, you were thriving. >> And the only reason I'd even gotten into the Greek system was because I went to an all girls school with 55 girls in my graduating class. >> So it was familiar. You're like, I know this is like the back of my hand.
7:40I can do this. >> I just was like, oh, I'll go to college and do the thing they do in the movies. and see if it's fun. And then of course I wound up launching all our charitable stuff. And then I get to set and people are like, "Oh, well she's from LA." And I was like, "But I don't what's a mark? Like what what is this place?"
7:58I knew nothing. >> Okay. So you decide, you know what? I'm going to leave college. Did your parents freak out? >> Um, yes. Okay. >> Also, [laughter] like what a baby. Truly, I just I had so little life experience. I remember going to see my advisor at Annenburgg, this tiny, adorable woman with dark curly hair.
8:25I'm not going to say her name because I don't want people to like look her up on Instagram. Um, but she's a dream boat. And I remember sitting down in her office and and saying, you know, they want me to come in and screen test for this TV show. and if you screen test, you know, you have to sign a deal and if you get it, it's done.
8:41You're going and it's it's going to be my senior year in college and I don't know if I want to miss it. I'm never going to get this back." And she just said, "Sophia, this is not these are not opportunities that come around a lot. And if this is what you think you want to do, go and do it. You can always come back to school."
9:00And I remember thinking, "Yeah, I mean, I guess we could do even like a couple years and I could come back. Maybe I'll be back in three years. What's the difference? >> Yeah, maybe I'll be back and then >> and then nine seasons later. >> And then >> a decade. >> So, how old were you? >> I turned 21 the week before I moved to North Carolina.
9:20>> So, I I did three years at SC and then that that summer after my junior year, I was 20. I turned 21 and then I moved there. >> And that's like a pretty traditional normal college experience going into it. Like I'm like I didn't fully know that about you before I started researching. I'm like, "Oh, this girl went through like normal life, college.
9:43She wasn't a child actress." Like your whole life just turned upside down. So you get on set for the first time and from what I understand, you're basically saying you weren't this seasoned actor, which some of them already were. How did that play into how you felt walking on set and meeting everyone?
10:03I mean, I was so I was so nervous and there was this I I think I mentioned earlier this sort of story like, oh, this girl from LA, oh, her dad's in the business. My dad was a photographer who worked in advertising and you know what I think nobody really got cuz it sounds like a fancy job. My dad my dad was a version of a cameraman.
10:27You know, my dad was crew, right? And so it was a weird thing because I'd watched my dad work. I'd learned work ethic certainly from him, from both my parents, >> but I'd never been in that environment before in the sort of rarified air like on the set with the actors. This was the era of Tiger Beat, you know?
10:49It all seemed so cool and I was like, I'm not cool and I don't want anyone to know I'm not cool, but I'm playing the coolest girl on camera, probably one of the coolest high schoolers to ever grace our televisions. Okay. >> And then I'm like, okay, so you then do you immediately bond with the cast? Are you a little bit?
11:13>> It totally is. >> It was all so sweet because it really, you know, you'll hear people talk about how it's a bit like summer camp. We were all kids. It literally felt like summer camp, but suddenly we we were the campers and the counselors, you know, and none of us knew what we were doing. It's crazy to have that much responsibility and we just sort of figured it out.
11:34And I think I got really lucky because I hadn't been there for the pilot. I didn't know any of these people. I didn't know any of their prior relationships or experiences with each other. I was the sort of fish out of water. And you know, I got I got pulled under wings very quickly. And it was like, you're going to come to this with us.
12:00Everybody's going out to this and you'll come with us. You know, everybody was so sweet. It was lovely. And we were children. Well, I was going to say like to anyone who lived under a rock and didn't Well, actually, I would say didn't know what One Tree Hill was, but now it's having a complete resurgence again and again and again, it it just keeps going, which is amazing.
12:20Like, we get older, but the show stays the same age. And every year it finds a new life. >> And it's so crazy. And now I meet moms our age who have 12-year-olds who were watching the show and their mom and I'm like I also I'm going I'm so sorry for the things my character did in the first season. She grows up.
12:44Don't don't take her advice right away. But she has a really good heart. I promise. And now I feel like their mother. It's so crazy. So, I actually wrote that down cuz I was like I was not like this like sexy thing when I was younger, but I remember some of Brooke Davis's lines and one of them I wrote down was >> know that not even your fantasy of me is interested in you.
Brooke's Early Character and Growth
13:07>> So good. >> I'm like that is obviously I know what you're saying about like some of her early advice, but are there any early OG Brooke moments where you look back and you're like uh that was my girl. Like she really she really embodied just something that we all wanted to be in moments. >> Totally.
13:24She she was so at first alarmingly confident to me. I was like, "This is not okay. We should not be doing this. What sort of example are we setting?" And interestingly, because I had to play her even when I didn't agree with her or even if I was mortified by her behavior, I learned to make room for other people.
13:47I think earlier than I might have because I had to figure out how to make room for another person literally inside of myself. And it was a really interesting journey because then I started to learn to ask questions. Well, why is she behaving like this? Where does where does the acting out come from? What do we call pick a stereotypical word for bold women out of the dictionary and fill in the blank?
14:13Why do we call her that? because if the boys act like this, they get high fives, but then she gets called something derogatory. I don't like that. And it it weirdly made me it helped me be a bolder person, I think, sooner than I might have found my boldness. That is really beautiful. Call Her Daddy is brought to you by Ashley.
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15:58Something I think that I I was excited to talk to you about because I know you're obviously so bright and I think >> obviously the over sexualization of women in media and television is just >> rampid and it has been for decades in dentur centuries centuries centuries it goes all the way back. So, talk to me about early days.
16:20You pushed back on the sexualization of Brooke and her character. And can you explain to me like what this character was initially pitched as and then some of the things that you voiced like, "No, this is a little uncomfortable. I don't love this." >> Yeah. I mean, it she was pitched. I remember them saying, "Okay, so we we had this producer on the show who very famously dropped an fbomb every fourth word."
Sexualization and Pushback on Set
16:48Like a a real New York guy came up in the MTV scene like [gasps] like if you had a stereotypical New York gruff but lovable neighbor on Seinfeld, this guy, he actually was named as a Seinfeld character. And when we when we did the call ahead of me going in to read for them because they were all under the same production company umbrella, he was like, "All these characters make you want to kill yourself."
17:16And I was like, "Oh my god." You know, [laughter] I was like, "Okay." And you know, he's and he's like, you know, it's like you have a kid who's a victim of like narcissistic abuse from a dad and a a kid who doesn't have a dad and people dealing with economic struggles and someone with a dead mom and like everything's dark, >> you know?
17:36And he was like, "We need somebody like comic relief. Come in and stir the pot like the, you know, we always used to joke like she's the HBIC, you know, the head [ __ ] in charge, which I wasn't." And I was like, "Fun. That sounds so fun. And I remember like being there were four scenes in the audition and one of them was the leopard bra in the backseat of the car and I remember being a little uncomfortable with it but also wanting to be good and being like so like what's like what's
18:10the vibe with this? Like you know throw myself under the bus a little bit. I went to an all girl school. Like I didn't know anything. we didn't have this, you know, like parking lots with boys cars and what's the vibe? And they're like, well, you know, it's it's an introductory moment and it's it's meant to tell the audience like you can't ignore this person because she wasn't in the pilot.
18:29And I'm like, okay, >> it's a it's like a stunt, >> you know, it's like stunt casting but in a scene. And I'm going, okay, I get it. And then, you know, she's fun and she's like trying to push Payton to get out of her shell and she's like the girl who is telling you her best friend like, "You're hot.
18:45you're desired. Go out there and get what you want. And I'm like, that's me. Like, I'm the person when you walk in, I'm like, your hair looks [ __ ] amazing. Your tits look great in that dress. Your butt looks perfect in those jeans. Like, tell your friends they're beautiful. The world is mean to women, you know?
18:58>> Yes. You're the hype woman. >> Yes. So, I was like, she's a hype woman. That I have in spades >> down. And then we get out there and then I hear that there's been a mandate by the fourth episode from the producers like we want more Brooke and I'm like whoa that's crazy. And also the story gets told by our boss in a way that definitely makes the energy with the girls weird.
19:27And I'm like that that didn't feel you didn't need to tell other people that you could have just told me there was a compliment. Like it was a weird dynamic >> cuz everyone's fighting for screen time and it's again it's a job. So you're like why are we doing this? >> Well and and we had no adult who said these are common things that happen to young people on TV.
19:46You might feel this, you might feel that. You might need someone to talk to. We were just kind of trying to deal with it all and then pretend like we weren't affected. But of course we were affected. And so I remember I don't remember what the episodes were that led up to it, which is crazy because now I've actually watched the whole show thanks to the podcast.
20:07But I remember when the big fight that I wrote about happened. It was the episode where the characters get in the hot tub. They like break into one of Brook's neighbors backyards and are hot tubbing. And they gave me bathing suit bottoms but a nude strapless bra. And I was like, "No, I want a bathing suit top."
20:30And they were like, "No, you're supposed to look topless." And I'm like, "But it's a nude. It's literally just going to look like my breasts are out in the water on screen. Like they're not down at the bottom of the hot tub. They're right here." So, and and wardrobe was like, "I don't know what to tell you.
20:50This is from the producers in LA." And I was kind of like, I'm saying no and you're saying no to me and it's my body. And it was it it was sort of a straw that broke the camel's back because there were more and more and more of these very expository scenes. And I was like, romance and sex and whatever.
21:14I mean, God, I didn't have a healthy relationship to any of it then. Who did? But I was like, I get some of it. I don't think it should be the only thing this person does. And so we got into it and we got in this like screaming match on my flip phone. And I remember like and I I wrote about this like looking at the phone like this so offended by what was being said to me.
21:38And I think about it now because I'm like, "Oh, was something in my brain aware that we would have FaceTime one day? Like that we would have a screen? I don't know." But it was this moment where I just I was so naive that I didn't know it was dangerous to defend myself so loudly. And I literally said to my boss, I go, "Keep writing these scenes.
22:04I dare you. I'm going to start coming I'm going to start coming to set every day in a turtleneck. >> I love you." >> Like, oh my god. [laughter] I look I look back at that and I'm like go off girl. Like who do you think you are? >> Literally like where did you get these balls? Because >> I don't know.
22:22>> Oh my god. >> Especially because I've spent so much of my life being like I don't want to bother anyone. >> Right. But when it came to this, >> but in this moment I just was like, no. >> No. You wrote I wrote this line down. You're the one with the [ __ ] rack everyone wants to see was something that was said to you.
22:42>> Mhm. And I was like, "Is it appropriate for my boss, who's old enough to be my father, to say that to me on the phone?" Like, you speak to women that way? Crazy. But the culture was so bad. I mean, remember the way they picked apart Britney and her body? Remember the way they were just the the content they were making, the things they were doing?
23:05They they treated us like >> blowup dolls. Yeah. >> And it's so surreal to me. And I think, you know, as I've grown and I've understood how threatened men are by women's power, I go like, "Oh, how embarrassing for you that you want to write us to be so basic. You're so intimidated. Shame." >> You're right.
23:33It's the insecurity and they try to reduce us to just this sexual being and it's like it is it's so loud the way that you clearly view us and we are constantly pushing back against that but they refuse to see it. I wanted to know also because of how determined they were to sexualize this character in a way that was not initially pitched to you.
23:55You write about how a random guy filming you in public once referred to you as a piece of meat, a TV prostitute. >> How do you think the way that you were forced essentially to portray Brooke impacted the public's perception of you as Sophia Bush in real life? >> Hugely. >> Talk to me about that. >> Because you have to remember there was no ability to communicate for yourself at the time.
24:21>> There [clears throat] was no social media. >> No social media. you know, I was not writing op-eds. You know, pretty soon into this, I would, you know, 5 years in, I was on the campaign trail, but it's not like all of that was being, you know, recorded and transcribed or whatever. I I definitely could see particularly because she was so treated as a sex object, you know, hot girl cheer cheerleader and it's like, oh, poor you.
Impact on Public Perception
24:53But the interesting experience of it was not being taken seriously, not having my intellect trusted, having people be so shocked at my education, at my ability to be a writer, at all of these things, and to be reduced, reduced, reduced. Women were often reduced to being in service of a man, being in service of his desire.
25:18Everything was male gays. And it was an interesting thing when the story about our boss broke and the the writer who broke it, a woman who'd worked on our show, who I adore, was like, "There's nothing I can quite," she essentially said, I'm paraphrasing obviously, but how you can never really recover from the moment you realize you might only be in a room because you're a body part.
25:43and what that does to your understanding of your talent, your capabilities. And I'm not gonna be so, I don't know, emotional as to be like the world shouldn't be like this. It shouldn't obviously, but what I what I actually think we should look at and what I want to ask men to look at is this is a whole layer of your life experience from the moment you leave your front door to the moment you're able to lock it safely behind you.
26:11Cuz I don't count walking in. I count shutting it and locking it as I'm safe. It's a whole layer on top of your entire life like Saran wrap over the bowl that you guys never have to deal with ever. And I'm not saying you don't have to deal with stuff and I know you're not doing great. Look at suicide rates.
26:27Men are clearly not happy either in a patriarchal system, but they don't have to deal with what we have to deal with. They don't have to laugh at jokes that aren't funny. They don't have to be told that being harassed or groped um or sexualized or talked down to is just a compliment they should take and keep it moving.
26:46They don't have to reduce their experience to make other people comfortable. And the interesting thing about the dynamic on our in our workplace, our boss being so insidious as to really try to make sure the girls wouldn't feel safe to be friends with each other was he was afraid we were going to have these conversations.
27:03He was afraid of the gossip. He was afraid of the talking circle because the minute we had it, it all blew open. >> Yeah. >> And it's like because they're afraid, they then >> make you afraid of connecting because they recognize first of all, it's a complete power imbalance. He holds the keys to your career and he's acting inappropriately.
27:26And so then he's recognizing I easily can weaponize my power by making sure these women are all looking at each other like you're the one that's coming for my career and you're the one and you guys never have enough time to actually look at who's the actual problem which is this man. >> Totally. But by the but even by, you know, the fifth season, like we would be we would be in little group chats and the new girls that were hired that year, we were like, "If he invites you to dinner, call us."
27:59And then it was like, "Oh, yeah. We're supposed to go to work and talk about the character." And we'd be like, "Where and what time?" And two of us would show up and be like, "Oh, what? You thought you were going to have dinner with the newbie without us?" And we would act jealous so she wouldn't have to sit alone with him at a restaurant and be like, "So, what are you going to do with her storyline?"
28:20So that she wouldn't have to be alone with him. >> Wow. So then you guys almost started creating this. >> Well, we played into it a little bit, >> but it was helping these other women essentially. You're like we >> And sometimes sometimes we'd be like, "Okay, if they're going to go cuz you can't do that every week, you know.
28:35So then it would be like, okay, what if two of us go to the restaurant? If if they're supposed to go and like talk about the season arc at 8, why don't four of us go and get bar seats? We'll call the restaurant manager. We'll get bar seats at 7 and we'll have a cocktail and apps and they'll walk in and we'll be like, "What are you doing here?
28:54Oh my god, pull up chairs." Like we we didn't leave each other alone. >> No, you created a support network for each other. But women do that everywhere. In hospitals, at universities, like we know how to have each other's backs >> in a way that we shouldn't have to >> that part, >> but we do it. >> And a lot of times it's an unsaid thing.
Standing Up to the Showrunner
29:17And a lot of times it just goes and it we don't talk about it, but it took years for this showrunner who harassed you and countless others as you're talking about on the One Tree Hill set >> to be held accountable and you helped organize the effort. Can you explain how this came together? >> Yeah, you know, we [sighs and gasps] obviously we all the great thing about having such a big group.
29:41You've got your massive group chat everyone's in. You've got your massive group chat of all the girls. You have the little side chats of like, oh, the three of us are going through the same thing at the same time. You know, these people are becoming parents. These people are going through breakups. These people are whatever.
29:55Like, what? It's what we do forever. And we all were always talking about life and things. But as we were moving through 2017 and the Harvey Weinstein story broke and me too really exploded by the way in the way it should and then they wanted to backlash it because God forbid women actually say we're not doing this to ourselves.
30:18If one in four of us has been harassed or assaulted by the age of 22, who do you think's doing it? >> Thank you. >> And that's by the age of 22. What do you think we've been through by the time we're 40? like hello. So, we would as as that was happening, people were like, "What do you think's going to happen?"
30:34You know, it's been a while for us. What What do you think's happening on his new show? What do you think's going to happen? What do you think's going to happen? And then we started getting, it was weird. You know, you'd see comments, you'd see things on Twitter, you'd see things on your Instagram. Sometimes you delete them because if you don't then the comments turn into a whole other thing.
30:57And you're not doing that to protect a bad guy. You're like, I don't I don't want this I don't want this to turn into a beast that's going to bite someone else. Kind of a thing. Some things we'd leave up and be like, "Oh, well, we didn't say it." You know, you you have to kind of navigate. It's it's a it's a sort of labor you do and you figure out how to do it together.
31:18And we had been tagged in a tweet that basically said like, "Whenever you're ready, ladies, tell us about your boss." And we were like, "Oh my god, could you imagine? Like, what do you think? What do you think?" And the hard thing, I think, for many of us was it's not just my story to tell. You know, Hillary says that in the in the portions of it I used in the book.
31:47um of our conversations. I I selected little bits of them to tell the story and also frankly to let it be forensic because you know men are who they are and might say like oh well you you took that in a way she didn't mean it. So it that part is very much like a forensic journalism section. And it was like, well, who do you think it might be?
32:13Because we all know what happened to us on the sliding scale of what happened to women on our show. I was like, oh, I'm like on the lower end, closer. I'm like on a I'm up to like a four. There are women who experienced him at a 10. And it's not my place to tell their stories. And so when things started really bubbling up and then our writer posted her thread about her experiences with her writing partner on our show, she didn't name our showrunner and she didn't name our show, but people could
32:50look up what they worked on together in the year and then they knew. And so as soon as we everybody knew and the news knew and we started getting calls, we were like, "What are we going to do?" And everybody was getting calls, everybody on the show. And when Daphne, obviously, you know, me and Hillary and a, you know, a couple of us were like on all the time.
33:12And when Daphne called me and was like, they just called my agents. I played your mom. Like, I didn't experience this with him, but they're calling my team. What are we going to do? And all of us knew some of each other's stories. And it was during this time that we came to know everyone's stories. And then we were tasked with this not t we we we were actually sort of waited with the impossible task of how do we do justice and how do we not destroy anyone's privacy.
33:44And Daphany, to her credit, wise woman, she said if we did a collective statement, we can anonymize who everything happened to, but we can be clear about what happened and how it happened to everyone. And then me, Annenberg, obsessed with the law, took a constitutional law class for fun. I was like, I got this.
34:09because there are people who really like can't talk about it. They are traumatized. And I was like, I've got my own trauma. Most of mine doesn't come from that guy, but I can do this for the group. And it actually became an outlet for me to process the worst things that had happened to me. In a way, I could channel them into this and I could hold everybody's hands and I could literally interview every single woman in the cast and say in anonymized fashion, what words do what words feel okay to you?
34:48What words are not okay to you? Even with the things that happened to you, if you don't want the actual word that defines the experience, >> what words are what words make you feel safer? And every ounce of love I've ever carried for any woman in my whole entire life was like dripping out of that keyboard.
Trust, Friendship, and Chad Michael Murray
35:07And it felt important because it was accurate and it was true and it was protective. And very often when our stories get told, we're not protected. We're just used for more popcorn. and then to to put it into the world and then within a few days to see the response letter. There were 18 of us who signed our letter.
35:31To see the response letter of 25 women from the show he was working on at that time. I was just like this is why we say believe women. Why would we lie about this? Look how many of us there are and you still want to go well they're actresses. They got something out of it. Well, like, yeah, I've also been an actress on a Shondaanda Rime show.
35:54I would work for her until the day I die. Love working for Shondaanda. Never had to never had to do this to get something out of Grey's Anatomy. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's not a requirement. It's different. It's so incredible because I think there are so many women who >> I have chills. No, I do too because it's like I don't think there there is understandably a lot of women who don't even know where to begin to have their voice be heard.
36:22>> And so to be able to gather the way that you did and to collectively come together, >> I was really proud of us. >> It's incredible. And and it was really it restored my faith in a lot of things. It gave us back a very ferocious connection. It gave us all a second chance. It It gave us something I think we didn't know that we needed.
36:50And it mattered to me because it felt a little bit like the scales were getting balanced. You know, it felt a little bit like every single woman I know has a story and every single man wants to say he's never done anything wrong and doesn't know a man who does. And I'm like, "Guys, the math ain't math."
37:08>> Yeah. Then like literally, who's doing it? Yeah. Literally, who's doing it? And I remember when some of the some conversations were had recently and someone said, "If you if you get a woman so drunk that she's blacking out to have sex with her, that's assault." And a guy responded on Twitter and was like, "So that basically means every guy's raped someone."
37:27And we were like, "You're so close to getting it." you know, like to to to force someone in any way is not okay. >> And they don't even see it that way. >> And they don't see it that way. And this for me, the disconnect between what they understand and what reality is, the disconnect between how [snorts] few men who commit those crimes against women are ever prosecuted.
37:57Um, it felt like we put a weight on the good side of the scale and it helped me because there were experiences I had also reported that were not ever rectified or taken seriously. So, I had a lot I had had a lot of weights on the shitty scale at that time in my life. and the experience of doing this with with my girlfriends, the the realness it gave to us, like we always loved each other, but then we were like, "No, no, I don't love you as my coworker.
38:30I love you as a person." Like, I didn't just put my weight on the other scale. I got to take 18 of those shitty little weights and move them to this side. And it and it mattered, you know? We didn't fix the system, but we we were we were no longer a group that could be ignored. And it mattered to me.
38:54Absolutely. And I think what was so it's so profound what you're saying and also I think what's so hard as women is there's so many other things that have happened that you never got the justice or whatever and so then we'll take a win as a win for anything. Caller Daddy is brought to you by SoFi, the everything app for smarter money.
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40:54It's time you meet your new CRM BFF. Go to kla vi yo.com/b bestfriends. As we're talking about, you know, the rise of this show and the success of this show, like you said, then there were >> relationships that come from >> gee, what do you mean? >> You know, just naturally sometimes people get into relationships.
41:19And this topic was on your do not ask list for a while in the past, right? >> I mean, never respected, by the way, >> but always on the list. >> Never. Of course not. Of course not. But it was on your do not ask list. Totally. >> And you do in this memoir open up about your relationship with Chad Michael Murray for kind of the first time in length.
41:44What were some of your just like biggest hesitations about sharing this part of your life? >> The thing that's a little hard to swallow when you share your life and your writing makes you a famous writer. People are like, "Wow, book changed my life." When you're already famous and people have opinions about you and you share your story, people are like, "Can't get over it."
42:08Da da da. And it's it's a really weird dichotomy where you're sort of not supposed to say anything. But if you're a person who's done the work to heal from anything, who's journeyed through your life attempting to be aware, who wants to be accountable, who wants to grow, who goes to therapy, you have thoughts about how things that happened to you shaped you.
42:31And when I said I don't want to write about it at all, my editor was like, I hate to break it to you. Google exists. So I think that's like the second line in the chapter. And what felt important to me was to say we were kids. We're older. We're all We're all adults. We're all parents. No harm, no foul.
42:52Wish you well. Pray the adult you are. Hope it's mutual. But as a young person in a highly pressurized situation, as a woman, I trusted every single other person in the room more than I trusted myself. And there were times when I called it and I allowed myself to be talked back in and I didn't I really just didn't read the writing on the wall and I didn't want to disappoint other people and I didn't know how to say the hard thing when everyone else's expectations were wrapped up in it.
43:29And I think we've all been there. But what I hope you learn is choose yourself. just choose yourself. And I think also so much of what you do share, the themes within it are so also helpful as someone who is a fan and watched the show to understand what you were going through on that set while this was happening behind the scenes.
43:55the fact that you guys were having to interact and still whether it be love interests or friends on the show and this is all happening behind the scenes. It is very helpful to paint the story of your life and give us more insight into who you are as a resilient woman in very challenging dynamic to think that our boss who was old enough to be our parent was like, "Oh, these kids are going through something incredibly traumatizing.
44:24I'm gonna rewrite them together. Make them do intimate scenes together. Demand that wardrobe makes them be skin-to-skin to look naked in those scenes together. Like an adult made that choice for two essentially two children. [clears throat] And it for me is just so crazy. And so there are lessons I I obviously want women or anyone to have, which is if if you are sure something is wrong and everyone's telling you you're crazy, you're probably not crazy.
45:01I love how you reference that because again, this is a theme I want to talk about, which is getting information from people, but not trusting yourself, but trusting yourself and going with your gut when you're young. At the time, Hillary Burton was one of your closest friends on set, Miss Pton Sawyer.
45:16We love you. And she explicitly told you, I'm assuming when you and Chad started kind of clearly liking each other and people on set were seeing this, she told you, quote, "Do not date him." What was her reasoning behind this warning to you as a friend? >> They had worked together on another show. Wasn't a great experience.
45:38you know, it was good advice and I just didn't I didn't have the I didn't have the wherewithal or the experience. Um there was a while where my friends used to joke like look up gullible in the dictionary and you'll see her face. >> How did it impact cuz I have been there. We've all been there with a girlfriend where they're like trust me don't date him.
46:01I know his past and when you do end up being like love you but I'm I I need to see for myself sometimes it can impact the friendship. How did that impact you and Hillary just in general as friends? >> Yeah, I mean, you know, it's interesting because for years I thought that's why we stopped being two peas in a pod.
46:23Obviously years later when all of us started to try to unpack our experiences with our boss, I was like, "Oh my god, this is why communication is so important because I felt so much shame." And then she was right. And then again about who he was then. I know the trolls are going to have a field day. Like we're it's all good.
46:43And so for me the the distance was like I didn't listen. She was right. And that was it. Like I didn't trust her. And years later, we all came to learn our boss was telling every woman on the show stuff about the other women, stuff supposedly that the other women were saying. And we did not. I think something people don't understand about that environment is it's not like you go to school with these people or that's your friend or that's someone who lives in your dorm.
47:20You have to do a job together. >> This is your job. >> So, you try to never rock the boat. You don't want to risk it. You don't want to fight. But sometimes that means things go unsaid for years. And so, when we finally started to unpack all the really crazy puppet mastering our boss was doing, I was like, "Oh my god, I thought you >> This was over a boy.
47:43>> I thought you cut me off over a boy." And she was like, "Well, I heard that you." And I was like, "Wait, what?" And that was when we started to be able to repair. And it is something I talk about later in the book, like this gorgeous thing that all of us women got to do together. And one of our other friends, co-workers, sisters in this crazy journey we took said like, "The thing I'm actually the most mad about is the years I missed being friends with all of the rest of you because I
Intuition, Overwork, and Red Flags
48:12believed what he said." And that's why I think the book is so illuminating, too. When women are kind of siloed into their corners and you feel as though you can't talk to the other woman, there is a reason someone is making you feel that way cuz they don't want you to talk. And so the fact that you're like, "Okay, you gave me advice maybe not to date Chad, then I'm dating Chad."
48:32And I'm thinking it's because I'm dating Chad that we're not as >> we're both telling totally separate stories about why we there's distance between us >> completely. And then I also want to talk about because I think this is a relatable thing which again we have so much to keep going through but >> when you talk about the doubting of yourself which is so relatable because I have been in a relationship that was very traumatizing where he cheated and it was like him telling me he didn't
48:56cheat and then you're believing that person. >> I was essentially dropped into my own romcom. It felt like a fairy tale, >> right? And I would imagine that that swirl I would imagine it was a swirl for him as well. You know, for me, I think for anyone it's like if you don't want to be in something, tell someone and leave.
49:16If you're not ready to be committed, tell someone and go. If you like change your circumstances, but I also understand that's hard. Yeah. And I think that's also fair for you to be like that feeling of the fairy tale in the beginning. I've been there. Every woman has been there where you're like, you are still holding on to the fantasy of those original days where there were no problems.
49:38It's fun. We're on this show together. There's no way he's cheating. And even though people are like kind of telling you it's happening, you're going to take this person's word because you want to believe them and you understandably are saying, I I there's no way that this you would lie cuz I wouldn't lie.
49:54Just why wouldn't you? Well, also why I think sort of like why would anyone if you want to be out on the scene like go. >> Do you have any insight now when you look back of like oh why was I kind of feeling like those red flags >> were okay to push aside because was there anything that you were feeling fulfilled with?
50:17I I don't really know. But what I can see and what's the ugly thing where you really think you've processed all your stuff and you go like, "Turns out there were a few crumbs left under the rug. That'll be fun. Yeah, I totally want to clean that up again." was to realize I could see these major moments in my life from childhood pre the show, during the show, after this period, after that show, on other shows, in my personal life where I would go, "Oh, but this is the reason life is
50:49hard." Like at this time that you're referencing, my mom was sick. My mom was starting chemo. Of course, I thought I was unhappy. >> I see. >> Do you know what I mean? There's like a >> and and I've had to realize, oh, I have a desire to identify things outside myself as the causes of stress or unhappiness because I have that good girl syndrome where I want to be grateful and I'm so lucky to have the job I have and I'm so lucky to have the privilege I have.
51:18And yes, my life might feel really hard and I might be a little depressed or I might be super stressed, but so many other people have it worse. Buck up. I look at myself at 21 and I go, "Sweetheart, >> you were looking for any reason for why it felt bad." >> And I get it. >> No, I I love that you're saying that because again, a woman's intuition is never wrong.
51:42But I was thinking about it, >> but we're not taught to feel it or trust it. >> Of course not. And you're literally explaining that exact situation. And you're like, I am going through the motion of this situation and this relationship and there's so many things that are screaming in my face being like, Sophia, this ain't it, it girl.
51:59Like the beginning to the >> 21. I was like, look at all the party colors. It's a parade. And then you're like, oh, I must be sad cuz my mom's sick. Instead of like, well, there's another cheating rumor or whatever it be. >> Yeah. >> The day of your wedding. And this is something that I need to just hear your opinion on for women listening.
52:16if you have advice. >> I think a lot of women wonder, okay, >> is this just like pre wedding nerves? Because a lot of people do feel that of like this is the craziest day of my life. Oh my god, oh my god. And then there's that verse when you're like, >> is this a deeper intuition and my gut is telling me maybe this is not the person for me?
52:37And like >> how do you learn the difference? >> I think it takes a really long time and there's no road map for it and you have to find it for yourself. You know, you hear people say marriage is hard, but if hard is suffering, that's not the same thing. You hear people say trust your gut, but how do you know the difference between your gut screaming at you and normal anxiety that you hear everybody has?
53:04I learned how to disassociate like a pro. I I can't make that everybody else's fault. I have to take accountability for how fine I seem a lot of the time when I'm not and learn to be open enough to say no this isn't minor I am not okay I'm saying okay but I'm covered in a rash from head to toe maybe that's a red flag and not an allergic reaction you know and it's taken me a long time to learn that because the thing that has been the most praised Ed in my work.
53:42I can do a 110 hour work week. I can do 17 hours on set and be back the next day on a forced call and be on the next show and be and then fly on a red eye to go do press the next morning and fly back. I can do anything you need me to do. That is the greatest asset in my line of work. And that [clears throat] is what makes you a shell of a human in your personal life.
54:03>> I was going to say it's like it's your superpower and it's also your your curse because >> Okay. And it took me a very long time, probably until I turned 40, to go, I think I've been fine and good in a lot of time when I really wasn't. And I can't change that. But what I know is that I want to live I want to live the rest differently.
54:32I don't want to look fine and be miserable. I don't want to look happy and be struggling to get out of bed in the morning. I don't want to be saying you, you have so much to be grateful for. Be grateful. Like gratitude is a punishment and not a pleasure. I want it to feel good. I want that for all of us.
54:53I think that is so important that you're highlighting that because I appreciate that we can all recognize when we're younger, we h we don't have the tools, especially as women, like you said, >> 2003, >> we had no tools. >> No, no, no. Literally, in 2003, it was like we're just happy. We're happy. We're happy you're here.
55:14We're happy you're here. And I think that that is such a testament to like the the >> way that you have to just sometimes get through like you said you learned how to dissociate and now you're at a point in your life where you're starting to like okay I'm actually able to start to recognize the rash on my body when something is physically saying we are rejecting what's happening these are things you're learning but back then you're like I'm ignoring and I'm just pushing through because I'm getting
55:43rewarded for pushing through and Your gut was right. >> Yeah. >> Like I said, a woman's intuition, it's always right. >> You had a conversation >> with Chad's groomsman >> or one of them. [clears throat] >> And you picked up the phone >> and you called this guy. Why did you even pick up the phone and call?
56:01What was what was getting too loud to ignore? And what was confirmed on that phone call? Something in my brain was like, "Why didn't he show up that day?" And then part of me was like, "But if he didn't show up that day, he would have certainly called me to tell me if it was like about me, right?" And something in me was like, "No."
56:24Cuz also, how do you do that to your friend? Like that's that's a really sticky position to be in. And you know, to his credit, like when I called and asked, he was like, "Why didn't you call me that morning?" And I was like, "If you make this my fault." [laughter] So, what you're saying the groomsman is saying, "Why didn't you call me the morning of the wedding?"
56:43>> And and you're like, >> and I just was like, >> because he dropped out. He dropped out of the wedding and he basically told you, "Girl, >> didn't tell me anything. Just, oh, he's not going to make any sick." It was a special thing that he was willing to be honest. I wish more men were. And, you know, I I also said we were young.
57:03Like, again, we were young. But what I think is the most important thing to me, and I, you know, I didn't talk about this in the book. I wrote about um some of the friendships I made with women who I think the world would probably think I would never speak to. Um that I really cherish. And frankly, when I like look at the landscape, I'm like badass, badass, badass, badass.
57:31Like in pretty decent company. We are you saying that the people that he was cheating on you with are you're now like oh I'm >> a couple >> oh >> and and it's like again I I know the adult the adults we are are completely different people from who we were but even the the child I don't relate to that he was I'm like you did have kind of great taste bro and like congrats you crushed >> you're like no that's actually kind of nice when you're like yeah I get it like >> I'm like he's great
58:00>> like I actually get it and by the way like >> Sophia Yeah, >> I'm open to all people. I'm like I get it. Hot. >> You're like actually I don't even know if I want you anymore. >> I know. I'm just like damn. Like [laughter] in a lineup I take any one of us. So like okay. >> No, that's really beautiful that and also finding a way to not actually pit it on the woman and just being like, "Oh my god, you know what?
58:24Let's become friends because we have a lot in common clearly." >> Yeah. And I love it's like what a weird blessing. Like you don't know where you don't know where your little sparkle bits are going to come from. And like it's kind of sparkly. >> No, that's really beautiful. And I do love how you do take these moments that are most people are like I'm crying on the floor and you're like, "Come on, let's go.
58:50Let's be friends." I mean, we all did it and like I had I had people cry in my arms and it and I'm like, "I'm here. Whatever you need, we're going to survive. >> We're also like, shouldn't we have a marg and do something else? >> We should always have a marg. >> Yeah. >> Call her daddy is brought to you by Zip Recruiter.
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Marriage to Grant and Ashlin Harris
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1:00:22That's ziprecruiter.comdaddy. Meet your match on Ziprecruiter. Something you also write about in your book that I think is again very relatable for women is this second marriage that you experienced with your ex-husband Grant. And you write about in the book ultimately like you realized you two were maybe better off as friends.
1:00:46Yeah. And maybe you should have never gotten married. What do you remember about that feeling of like, "Ooh, maybe this isn't right." I Esther Perelled myself to death because I said, "The smartest woman I know says you can't expect what you used to get from a village from one person." And I have more than any one person could want for their life from my community of friends.
1:01:12I overindex on love, commitment, service, music, laughter, comedy, creativity, spontaneity. Like I have multiple friends that are like, "Oh yeah, Sophia is my friend I can call and say, "You want to go to Africa on Thursday?" And she's like, "Yeah, cuz they want to go too." Like I have it. And so in a way, and I and I don't think I'd processed this yet either, I I had closed off so many tender parts of myself in the years leading up to 2020 as I tried to put myself back together.
1:01:48So I think I think I'd really done like a number on myself and said, I I don't need so much. I'm okay. I have enough. and and in the way that I had always gone left. Left hadn't worked. I decided to make a right. And we had a big audacious project to work on that we were both really passionate about.
1:02:12And it was great. And I as much as we are not each other's person, I will say I deeply admire that energy tendency trait in him and I can admire it in myself and I absolutely see how we mistook a a melding on something really important as as meaning it was important that that we were important. So during the kind of like fallout of that relationship, you began dating former US soccer star Ashlin Harris.
1:02:54>> Yes. >> The internet had a lot to say. So >> really did. >> I would love to hear from you. How did you guys meet >> on Instagram in 2015? >> Like all all of the girlies though and it was cool. You know, remember how pure the internet used to be? It was like so nice and everybody was just big uping each other all the time and the team was playing and crushing and you know we were doing what you did then.
1:03:17Nothing was cringe. We were posting. We were tagging. We were like cheersing everyone and you know having a time and my best friend and I were like up at 4 in the morning watching games. We were living together at the time. Like we were just having fun. >> So you meet on Instagram and then you randomly like you guys eventually meet in real life.
1:03:37>> Yeah. in real life. Finally, in 2019, >> okay, >> we went to an event that a bunch of women on the team threw and it was like an artist and activist lunchon and I remember I remember how fun it was cuz a bunch of us had met by then and we were like, you know, you have the moment where you're like off the internet finally.
1:03:59>> And so at this point, you're going through a divorce. >> Oh no, no, this is 2019. This is before I even started dating my ex. >> I see. Okay. So, then we go through the divorce. >> And what was surreal to me was as I started to be open about my experience with my best friends. I was like barely hanging on by a thread.
1:04:20I was in London alone. And I'm going to do a panel for a brand partnership to shocker not shocker raise money to get women elected and then invest in women's sports. I know this [ __ ] like the back of my hand. I don't open the email. I'm so sorry. Please don't be mad at me. I did good on the panel. I I'm like, I don't need to prep for this.
1:04:40I have to get on a plane, go and do this, pretend I'm okay, and then fly back and do eight shows this week on the West End and I get taken to this dinner and all my friends are there. I had no idea. And everyone was like, "Are you dumb? Like, this is the moment. There's a whole women's sports build." I was like, "Guys, I don't I don't know.
1:05:00I'm here for 16 hours. And it was such a gift to see people, but it wasn't like I didn't have the thing that I think people know, which is like woman we know to be with a man, sees hot soccer player, says there she is. Like >> I didn't have that. I had known her forever. >> So Ashlin was at that dinner.
1:05:22>> Yes. With by the way, with 10 of our other friends. I was like, what's happen? You know, shrieking like a sorority girl. I'm so lucky. And when you guys were friends, like what was your understanding of her relationship and her marriage? >> Oh, we weren't friends like that. >> Okay. >> I wasn't like in the inner circle knowing what was up.
1:05:41The other thing that I know >> from going through obviously not the same exact experience, but going through a similar experience and also having so many other women in my life go through it that summer. Everywhere I turned, everyone was going through it. like I don't know. I didn't I didn't even know the inside information on how she'd gotten there until everyone finally had a place to talk.
1:06:08And I think there's a really hard thing about there's a really hard thing about the shame and when it looks really good from the outside and I know the feeling like I posted about how happy I was on my anniversary and I had already told my best friend I'm not going to be able to stay in this marriage and then I thought to myself but if I don't celebrate this the internet's going to come for me and if by some magical measure we work through it, it'll be messy forever.
1:06:42>> So, the the public thing adds a layer because you keep performing. >> You keep pretending it's okay even when you're not sleeping in the same bed, even when you're living on separate floors of your house, even when your parents know you are not sleeping at all and miserable. Like, and when I started to realize how many people had been doing that, my first reaction wasn't, "This is great for me."
1:07:10Like, my reaction was, "What does everybody need? Let me connect everybody. Talk to my best friend. She's going through it with a toddler. Who needs a lawyer? Who needs an apartment? Do you need my Amazon wish list for like kitchen utensils?" You know, >> hearing you guys. Yes. You're going through all this also.
1:07:25And it sounds like there were so many people in your life going through similar things. Yeah. >> It wasn't like this movie moment where it was like so then like >> it becomes romantic. [sighs and gasps] There began the thing that happens where everyone starts sending the Instagram profiles of the people they're getting set up with.
1:07:49A profile of a very beautiful person was sent. I said something uncharacteristically mean and was like I don't like to talk about women like that. And I was like, am I okay? >> Oh, you were jealous. So, you're saying like they were saying like they were going to set Ashley? >> Oh, yeah. The like lesbian mafia in New York was like just sending the Instagram profiles.
1:08:12>> And you were like, wait, I'm jealous. >> And I was like, what is this feeling? I don't like it. >> And then for me, it's also like, well, I can't all all my friends are like, you have to say something. I'm like, I'm not going to say something. But also, Sophia, you had never, correct me if I'm wrong, you had never been in a relationship with >> like a relationship, right?
1:08:29No. >> So, how did you make sense of I'm feeling these feelings and then and then actualizing them. >> But I think that's probably why like, hello, is anybody home? It took me so long. I'd known her for so long. There's no like, yeah, she's one of the most beautiful people who's ever walked the face of the planet.
1:08:49Like, we've all told her how hot she is forever. Like there was no like wow I'm really wow. It was more like do you ever have that moment where a group of people are talking and two of you say the same thing at the same time? It was that it was like well today's brutal lesson is blah blah blah blah and then like we'd both send the same text in response to someone else's and I'd be like what is that?
1:09:11You know, there were really hard conversations about for a lot of us like what we'd been fighting for for so long that just wasn't there. How do you rectify it? Why did you stay? Why did you double down? And a [clears throat] lot of our reasons for those things that like I don't mean to be rude, but aren't anybody's business like were the same.
1:09:35>> So, you were emotionally connected. >> Yeah. And as the as the time wore on, I just was like, "Oh my god, is this like a is this the invisible string?" Like, was I always supposed to, oh my god. And it was really surreal. And then I had to pace around my house for about 2 weeks. And my my best friend who's here today took videos of me being like literally you turned into Rainman.
1:09:59You were just like walking around the house going like, "Oh boy." But I like I I was like making sounds. I couldn't I I I like I broke my own brain. >> Why? Cuz you were just like I I'm a I'm want to be with this woman. Like it's almost like something just came over you where you were like oh my god I'm attracted to you in a way.
1:10:17>> It wasn't like it wasn't it wasn't that God this sounds so gay. I'm like it wasn't just like that I was attracted to her. It was like I went like oh are you like are you the other piece of the puzzle? Like does every weird little edge fit? And I wouldn't have thought these puzzle pieces were related, but now they're the last two and they click.
1:10:38Like what? >> And so did you when did you tell her this? >> Yeah, but I'm I'm a little bit of like a chicken [ __ ] but this whole like oh must have like gotten drunk and had an affair. I was like anyone who thinks that was a casual leap for me is doesn't know me. Um, no. And I was so nervous to like to say something to her that I did it at an event for a friend that I was only at because I was on a stopover on my way on a trip with my family.
1:11:07And I was like, "Yeah, I'll do like a layover for the night, stay with my best friend in Tribeca. We'll go to our friend's big presentation. Like, we're so happy for her. It's this big moment for her company. And then I'm going to go get on a plane." And I was like, "Well, I'm leaving the country." [snorts] So, this is perfect because I'm leaving the country and if she says no, I can cry into my mother's arms for 9 days overseas and come back and pretend this never happened.
1:11:30>> So, what did you say? >> I mumbled a lot. She had [laughter] It's so embarrassing. She had to sort of figure it out because I was like, you know, the group and so grateful and it's been so nice to like have this and probably wouldn't have lived through the summer without you guys. And the these these are so nice and happy for her brand.
1:11:56That was wonderful. >> And she's like, "Are you having a stroke? Like what's going on?" And I was like, you know, and it's it's been so nice. Like the dinner we all had together after the big event was so lovely, but like and this is nice, you You know, I'm glad I get to have lunch before my flight, but maybe we should just like have a meal not with everyone.
1:12:16I've never been less cool. She literally was like, "Are you asking me on a date?" And I was like, "Yes." I was It was terrifying. >> And when you went on your first date, were you as terrified? >> It Yes. I I tried on 900 tops, but like, you know, it was such a weird thing because and I can feel it like like [snorts] my mouth is dry and my fingers are tingly like even thinking about it, my body is back there because it was this really surreal thing.
1:12:55I was like, I've sat next to this person so many times. I've like sorority girl jumped into like her and other friends arms at events and like charged the patriarchy and called about the things and congratulated each other on the life stuff that looked great online and I and and and suddenly someone I never blinked at I can't breathe around.
1:13:19And later obviously we both talked about like it was the weirdest thing. It felt like we It felt like It felt like meeting a new person. It was like every everything in my body just like clicked and I was like, "Oh, this is what alignment feels like. Amazing. Now, let's talk about you have to deal with >> then you have to deal with, oh my gosh, you step out for the first time as a couple, basically."
1:13:51>> Well, no, we didn't. I'm I'm gonna be really clear. >> Yeah, know this is good to clarify. >> You know, outing Brooke Davis felt really fun for the tabloids. >> And the only way to stop the monstrosity of it was to to say like, I can show you this isn't true. And my team was like, yeah, see, ridiculous.
1:14:12They've they're friends. And I went, um, I took her to dinner last week. And then they said, "Are you going to take her to dinner again?" And I said, "Well, considering I feel like I got oxygen for the first time in my life." Yeah. And then they said, "Well, we can't lie. We can't say none of it's true.
1:14:33We can say it's not true, but they did go to dinner last week and it was a date." And then it was >> Can you clarify for everyone when everyone thinks there was overlap? Two people who had filed for divorce and lived in separate residences from their exes went to dinner. >> Both of you filed for divorce.
1:14:56>> Yes. >> Okay. So, you can say there was no overlap. >> I can say that. Everybody wishes they could have done a million things differently at the time. Like, do I wish that instead of flying home and stopping in New York cuz I already had tickets to a comedy show and taking her on a date, I'd taken her on a date 6 weeks later.
1:15:13Like, yeah, of course I do. But I can't change it. And and what I can't do is change I can't change my reality for anyone else. And I also can't be my own personal definition of insanity, which is try the same thing over and over again with no result. I'm never going to change anybody's mind who made it up.
1:15:38And I don't as much as there's like the part of me that was raised by my mother who was raised for many years in the Bronx that's like you know Michelle Obama can go high you want to go low meet me in the gutter like there's also a part of me that goes I've done too much work on myself to hurt someone when I've been hurt and I think especially when there's children involved especially when when the things that run away because they're fun for strangers ers.
1:16:08And that's true for all of us. They're fun for strangers. When they affect people's jobs, when they destroy someone's ability to provide for their family, when they when they destroy someone's credibility unfairly, like I I don't want to be party to that. And that's a really hard practice cuz all I want to do is be like, "Here's all the information."
1:16:30And if you had the information, the vibes would be different. And [clears throat] what's it going to do? How did the two of you handle though? Aside from all the speculation, like how did you guys handle such negativity at a time where you were also just trying to grow this relationship and have a good time while and then the media is saying, you know, home wrecker and and this and all and you're also for the first time, you know, this is people writing about how you're queer and all this.
1:16:59Like there's a lot that was happening at that time. like how did you two stay solid in that? >> Um, you know, strike season was really helpful and cuz everything was quiet and it was really just let's be quiet, you know, and and there were moments where I was like, well, I wish I would have said this and I wish we would have done this and I w quiet for me.
1:17:26I don't think I would have made it through that had I not known her for so long and had I not seen had I not seen the work and the sadness and the heartbreak and and the absolute crushing experience of I can't keep saying I can't do this anymore and staying and to to have shared that experience with her with two of my friends that divorced each other.
1:17:56My god, with my best friend divorcing her ex-husband, with another friend who was going to get a divorce and then went back. Like, it was I had seen so much that most people don't get to see when like potentially beginning to connect with someone. I feel like we had skipped to the end of the chapter already before I even knew the chapter could have like or the next chapter could have a a romantic angle.
1:18:25And because I knew I said like I'm just going to be here and we were quiet and my best friend showed up with her son and then she went home and I stayed and other friends came and then they went home and I stayed and we just stayed and it was awful and painful. And to be clear, not just painful on my side and her side is it's painful for everybody.
1:18:54It it was it was dirty. I watched it traumatize her. You know, there are there's a lot of work she's had to do to not be held under. And you know, we're still really [ __ ] privileged. So, like I I I don't know. >> Yeah. But yeah, it was it was it was clearly very hard for everyone and it became like a sport and that was ugly.
1:19:25>> Yeah. And then I think that's what the internet loves anything negative. And so I think whenever there can be something that's fun to pry on and be negative, it's almost which is hard cuz it is personal, but it's not personal to the internet. They don't care who they're doing it to. It's just so fun and people get off on it.
1:19:42And unfortunately it's like no, these are our real lives. But you have um clearly things have worked out. >> Yeah, >> cuz I see that ring. [laughter] And you are now married. >> I am. >> Congratulations. >> Thank you. >> Um why was this something you wanted to like keep quiet at first? Um, well, we spent so much time being quiet, you know, and we went through a lot of really hard things and then slowly life just got more and more beautiful.
1:20:23and a friend of ours was asking a question like considering in a relationship with a new guy and marriage was really important to him and she'd been divorced and and we had this like conversation like how do you do it again and I was like I mean don't [ __ ] ask me like I haven't gotten it right but I would do it again because I think I think the thing I think it's beautiful I think we grin when we talk about it like your eyes like go up at the corner when you talk about your husband like I
1:20:57think we have that because it's meaningful and it was like sort of an interesting moment you know cuz you have that conversation and then like you kind of look at each other and you're like and it became a conversation for a long while and there's so many there's so many pieces and bits of it where you have to untangle what you got wrong and And you have to really look at why you wanted it in the first place and what do you believe in and the conversations about what we believe in
Proposal, Wedding, and Closing Reflections
1:21:33about her grandparents that she looked up to about relationships that I've been lucky enough to bear witness to in my life. like I've seen it and I think the reason I've tried it probably when I shouldn't have is because I believe in it so much. And then it was this sort of thing where it it was a conversation for a really long time and it was like yeah well we'll figure it out like tomorrow like next year I don't know.
1:22:03>> Wait, was there a proposal? >> Yeah, but that's for me. >> I did it. >> No way. Turns out I was never supposed to be asked. I was supposed to ask. >> Are you proud of how you did it? >> I am. And it was so sweet. And then we were like, "Okay, like >> let's plan a wedding. >> Stop. >> Next week when?"
1:22:24And it's an interesting thing, you know, when when your life has been public for so long. I mean, and hers longer than mine. Like you get recruited for the national team at 13. Like what does that mean? But mine public teen television is a crazy kind of public too. And when you kind of recover from what the public commodifying you does to you, you don't want it to happen again.
1:22:54And we'd both done the big Vogue wedding and the thing and they were beautiful and we really tried our best and we really loved those people, but we were not compatible. And now I'm with someone who finishes my sentences and vice versa who makes me laugh in moments that laughter feels impossible and in all the other moments too.
1:23:16And I just was like, I don't need it. I don't need to design a dress and I don't need to plan a thing and I don't need a destination. By the way, I love a destination wedding. Like I want to come to your destination wedding. But I didn't need anything. And it was like the most perfect day. And my best friend was coming to visit with her kid and we were like, "Cool.
1:23:39So this weekend and you'll do it." And then her best friend came and we literally prepped food, put it on the smoker, got married in the backyard, had dinner, and it was
1:24:01it was the best most perfect day. I was the most in my body I have ever been. We sobbed and we laughed and it was exactly right. And I'm so thankful. And it it was like the very last stitch I put on every wound that had ever had a claw in it that I was sewing up for myself. I was like, "Oh, yeah. I had to do all of this for me, but the last steps of it I can't do without her."
1:24:43And that was it. And I love her. >> It's crazy to literally be moved to tears because you are so happy and grateful. Because gratitude used to be kind of toxic for me and now it's like I don't have words for it and I have a lot of words. Well, why it's also such a beautiful kind of almost end point where for this book and for this conversation is like >> we started this and we talked about that >> young girl at USC who was just like eager and excited and she got this job >> and so much of the book and our
1:25:29conversation has really been about yes the high highs and the low lows and just like all of this selfexloration that it takes a lot of trial and error to get yourself to a point where you can actually advocate for what you want, you know what you want, and you're able to be in your body and experience life in a way that you deserve and you want, >> it's crazy, >> right?
1:25:51And so to hear you talk about these other relationships that you had and like having a a gut feeling something was off and then getting into that other relationship and being like I think maybe I was actually asking for not enough because I was convincing myself that maybe if I just asked for this one thing that will be fine and I can fill my cup elsewhere and then to finally get to a place in your life where you're like I was in my body after dissociating from things to get to a
1:26:19place where you're sitting here now being like of Of course, there's work to still always be done. >> Oh my god. >> But >> all of these reps essentially, it's only gotten better. >> And I think that's such a beautiful message to leave women with because I do think we can get really really in our heads about >> oh my god, I feel like I'm maybe I shouldn't leave this marriage because can I even get better?
1:26:41And the answer is always yes. >> The answer is always yes. And this idea that it's too late or you're too old or who are you to want more? That's patriarchy. That is crazy. We don't need it. And for me, like it was the most profound thing to love the life inside my four walls, to not need to always be moving, to not be cramming every single day with so much work.
1:27:12And even afterward, like it was the most perfect day. And then I've never had something that's mine. And we got to tell our friends in person. We flew home to see my dad for his birthday and told my parents. We flew like we literally we took all the time we wanted so we could tell every single one of our favorite people face to face, show them photos, be together, and then it was like, okay, everyone that I don't want to find out on the internet, which is how everyone in my life finds out about
1:27:48everything, knows. And now I don't have to keep being like, "Well, my partner, [laughter] you know, I was like, "God, this is so" and I almost I've I've like almost slipped and been like, "Well, you know, well, what was I saying?" >> Say it, girl. You can say it now. >> I'm like, "That's my wife. That's my wife."
1:28:10>> How good does that feel? >> Incredible. Hot daddy. [laughter] >> I'm very into it. >> Oh my god. >> I'm very into it. Sophia, I am so happy for you. I really will say as obviously much as we covered in this conversation, the book there's so much in it and there's so much more detail that I urge people to go read it and truly just like enjoy it because there's so much that you can take away and find yourself in it.
1:28:43>> And there are joyful stories. >> There are and there are we we only touched on a few. I mean, they're big templates. We got in our feels today. >> Yeah, we we did the Monopoly board mostly, which is great. >> No, and I appreciate you going there with me today because you are so bright and it was so just enjoyable to listen to you just talking about your life in a way again that I think we really were able to extract a lot of good advice and wisdom.
1:29:05And I think people are going to take so much from this. And also, you're just our favorite and and obviously growing up watching you and continuing to watch you and what you do, like it was such a pleasure to sit down with you. I knew we would have such a good conversation. Also, this has been a long time coming.
1:29:20>> I know. We've really >> What was that years ago that we saw each other in Paris? >> Yes. The Olympics. >> Yes. And we were like, "Girl, when are we going to do like a needed sit down?" And it >> But this is the perfect time. >> It was the perfect time. And again, like your life in the public eye now, you having this memoir and having something that you want to say and that you're sharing and you're feeling comfortable doing in your terms.
1:29:43I'm so grateful that you felt comfortable to come and sit here with me and share so much with me and I really can't wait to just like continue to watch your career and your relationship of whatever you feel comfortable sharing online. Like we I'm rooting for you and I wish you the best and thank you so much for sharing so many good stories and good advice.
1:30:05>> Thank you so much. This was so fun. I we love you guys and this is this is special. So, thanks for having me. [music]
1:30:19>> [music]
1:30:27>> Heat.
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