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Transcript · The Joe Rogan Experience

Joe Rogan Experience #2575 - Sam Tallent

2:42:54English, auto-generated captions35,292 words · 141 min read

In short · Summary by AI

Comedian Sam Tallent discusses his debut-era novel Brute, a pulp-style hitman story he wrote partly as a love letter to literature, Paris, and his friends. The conversation ranges across his stand-up career, the Kill Tony O2 Arena disaster, Austin's comedy scene, his health and fitness changes, social media's harms, and fears about AI.

Transcript

Tallent's novel and origins

0:01Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. >> The Joe Rogan Experience. >> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY NIGHT. All day. >> We are. All right. We're up. Sam, your book is [ __ ] great. >> Thank you. >> It's really good. It was surprising. >> Yeah. >> Very interesting. >> It's uh You're a great writer, man.

0:22>> Thank you, Joe. >> You really are. It's proud of it. It's really good, man. It's uh you know it's I mean you're a very talented comedian so I shouldn't be surprised but it's always surprising when someone does something outside of comedy that they're really good at. >> I think you should be surprised.

0:38I think you're rightfully surprised that like a filthy nightclub comic who's very good at selling chicken tenders like wrote a book that's kind of beautiful, you know? >> So yeah, I think that's >> a beautiful book about an assassin which is even more interesting. >> Isn't that fun? >> Yeah. It's so much fun to take a thing we've all heard a million times and then like try and tell it like if it was actually happening in the real world.

0:59>> So I tried to like bring this down into the reality we all share >> and uh it's violent, you know, it's sexy. I get to talk about Paris like it's [ __ ] me. I love it. >> Yeah. What um what was the motivation behind like how So like when you decide you're going to write a book and you decide you decide you're going to write a novel you wrote a novel about comedy before, >> but this is different.

1:20this is uh about a hitman. Like, how did this come about? >> Uh [snorts] Random House picked up Running the Light, my first novel. And they reissued it and they gave me a twobook deal and they were like, "What do you want to do for the second book?" And I was like, "I wrote this book kind of about like if I never left my hometown and it's like I'm a loser and I like walk along the side of the highway cuz I love novels about men who walk in like overalls, you know what I mean?

1:45Like there's this like like Flannry O' Conor, like uh Larry Brown. There's all these great books about dudes who are like risking their lives for $300 so they can like fix the tires on their pickup truck. So, I wanted to write that kind of book about me and I was like, "It's kind of quiet and like inward looking."

2:00And they were like, "Do you have literally anything else? That sounds so [ __ ] boring." And I was like, "I got 30 pages about a hitman killing a guy with his gun that's jammed and he's like driving it into his skull like a spoon and mango." And they were like, "Run with it, kid." So, this thing was like fun to write compared to the other stuff because uh it's like a total fantasy, you know.

Writing the hitman story

2:20>> Where did it come from? >> Um did you did you just sit down and like what is your process when you when you decide you're going to start writing fiction? Do you have a thought in your mind? Do you sit down and let the thought come to you? Literally, I wanted I had this idea about um a a hit a killer trying to kill someone, but his gun jams and then him showing human signs of frustration.

2:44And I was like, I want to write that short story about like what's that look like to a guy who's supposed to be the best in the world at his job. But it turns out he's just as capable as all the infinite human failures that we all are. So that was the 30 pages I had of this and it was going to be a short story.

2:58And then, like I said, I was kind of incentivized by Random House to like, you know, they're giving me the ball. Do some damage. And that this is [clears throat] this is damage. You know, it's like the cover's awesome. Uh it looks like a punk rock album that I would have bought when I was a kid. like it was I don't want to say it was a commercial decision, but I definitely knew that this was the first time I was going to be on bookshelves, you know, with a hardcover release >> and I wanted to write something that was

3:25a uh easily sellable bit of, you know, pulp fiction. I love all those books, >> but I wanted to, you know, hide a love story in there as well and like >> write about all the things that kind of I wanted to explore nihilism and like all the existentialism that I like about like French writers and the Japanese like bleak people.

3:46And this is kind of like my love letter to a lot of different whether it's genre fiction, whether it's Paris, whether it's like my friends, you know, cuz like there is the guy is gay, but like I think I know how to write about loving men a lot more than I do loving women cuz like I've loved a lot more men.

Sexuality, friendship, and bachelor parties

4:03I've never [ __ ] any man in the ass. That'd be pretty sick if I could pull that off, but [laughter] I'm like trapped by heterosexuality. Like I would love to like spend a week at a bachelor party with the boys and have the most fun fraternity, paintball, ultimate frisbee. Maybe if Jaime's there, >> but uh and then at the end of it, wouldn't it be great to just lay down and like blow each other?

4:26>> That'd be cool. >> No, >> that would be cool. Like if we were capable of it. >> Well, we're certainly capable of it. At gunpoint, I'm sure people are capable of a lot of things. >> Oh, sure. Yeah, but I wish I wasn't at gunpoint. I wish I could do that and just be like get in here. >> You could decide to do it.

4:41>> No, I love fat natties and [ __ ] >> Well, yeah. So, why would it be beautiful to do something that you don't love? >> That's what I'm saying is if I was capable of that, then I think that would be the ultimate expression of male friendship would be like, "Get over here, boys." But >> instead, >> that's what the Spartans did.

4:58>> I know, right? They were cool. A lot of Vikings comforted each other that way. I think there was a lot of homosexuality all throughout human history before I think before people started talking >> for [laughter] sure before they could give labels to things and it was just like holes in the dark and then there was judgment once it's like a term you know >> right and then there was people discussing things like did you hear Mike [ __ ] Tom >> like oh Jesus Tom >> what the [ __ ]

5:25>> and everyone's living to be 22 and they don't know where fire comes from but they're still like being gay is gross that's a funny to think of in the cave. >> There's also a lot of pedarasti going on back then. >> There was a lot of uh lot of kid [ __ ] It was very common. And then also having sex with boys, men having sex with boys seems just ubiquitous all throughout history.

5:48>> Yeah. >> It's kind of how you broke them in, you know. >> Very strange. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Do you know about New Guinea? >> Uh I know about old Guinea. No, I don't know about New Guinea. What? >> The the uh pa New Guinea. The uh the seaman warriors. Do you know that story? >> No. But please, >> it's rough.

6:04>> I'm going to write down Seaman Warriors. >> Please write it down, >> which could be the name of this book. >> Once you hear about this tribe, you're you're you're going to be pretty freaked out. >> So, um, upon the age, I think it's of six years old, young boys are taken away from their mothers and given to an older man who they call their anal father.

6:23And their uh the folklore of their tribe is that for a man to grow strong, they must consume sperm uh anally and orally. >> They think they have a mouth in their butt. >> No, but that's they take they take it. >> Okay. >> You know what I'm saying? >> No. Yeah, you get it. >> I guess consume. I'm sorry.

6:47I guess >> Well, they have to consume it in the mouth and then they take it in the butt and then they uh they just get mouth [ __ ] and [ __ ] >> Yeah. And this is uh like the tradition amongst this tribe. >> But it's just you got to wonder like how that started and how you got everybody to go along with it, you know?

7:06Hey, give me your six-year-old. I'm going to mouth [ __ ] him, >> right? >> Cuz that's how he's going to grow strong. >> Do you think it was tied to like there was probably some like, you know, exploitative pervert who was in control. >> Sure. And then there was like he was already doing these bad things and then there was like a record harvest that year and then he was like well if you guys want to keep getting these record harvest keep letting me [ __ ] your kids in all their holes

7:32>> perhaps, right? >> Yeah. It wouldn't be a harvest because these are hunter gatherers. It's a very primitive tribe so it would be you know >> so the biggest caribou ever was landed that year. >> Something wouldn't be caribou different geographic locations. >> What goes on down there? >> Uh it's jungle.

7:47>> Okay. So it's uh >> there's like a macaw with the prettiest brain. >> They probably eat a lot of monkeys. Yeah. Um >> isn't that how you get pryion diseases? >> You can. Yeah. >> Well, maybe that's why they're [ __ ] all the kids cuz they got monkey brain. >> They also are cannibals. So you get pryion diseases from that as well.

Cannibalism and strange cultural rituals

8:01But apparently pryion diseases from cannibalism are a lot more rare than I thought. I was talking to who was uh the guy who was explaining us Daniel Everett. Is that who it was? >> Jimmy, remember the cannibal you had on? No, he was a a a guy who's uh spent time with a lot of indigenous tribes and and there's two different types of cannibalism that they engage in.

8:23One of them is uh cannibalism of your enemies. Yeah. >> And the other one is cannibalism of your loved ones. >> Okay. >> So when you kill your enemies, you eat them. >> And then when your loved ones die, they it's a really disgusting process. They would let them sit for three days um and putrify and they they would put buckets underneath the body to uh capture the liquefying >> the putrifying fluids and then they would dunk their sweet potatoes into the putrified liquids.

8:58>> Okay. >> And eat it. >> So it's kind of like a human candied sweet potato. >> Something along those lines. And then they they would eat they would consume. He was talking about this one guy who was working with him who had to leave the project because he had to go back home and eat one of his relatives because they had died and so he had to be part of this ritual.

9:14So he had to he had to depart. Huh. He had to go on his hero's journey. Sure. Yeah. God damn. Well, I don't know. I mean, it seems like there's a lot of like uh you know, kid exploitation at all levels of like high power. Or maybe power just ultimately leads to like >> that. >> Once you've had every delicacy on the buffet of life, then you're like, "What's left?"

9:36And it's like, "Wow." >> Right. You're at a diddy party. >> Yeah. Yeah. You're at a diddy party diddling. >> Yeah. Well, why you know why when you I've have this bit on stage like what happens? Like how do you get to that point where you're hiring 15 male prostitutes to [ __ ] your girlfriend in front of you?

9:51>> Like what's because you've seen everything. You've done you've done too much. And then >> also drugs. Drugs play a giant part in that. Like extreme deviency. Yeah. You know, >> most of the worst decisions I've made have been very high [laughter] and not on pot, you know, like whatever. >> I remember there was this weird opium going around Denver in like 2006 and they called it Red Dragon.

Red Dragon opium in Denver

10:16And me and my friends, you know, we're reading a lot of like burrows and we're like, let's get some of this Red Dragon. >> Oh boy. And boy howdy, if if it didn't lead me to The only time I've ever committed any kind of like big property theft is we were all [ __ ] up on this Red Dragon and we walked by a construction site and my buddy Crusty was like, "Hey, these lights go for like $800 a pop."

10:37And next thing I know I'm just like carrying two huge like construction lights down the street and the cops came and they like see like a giant man, you know, and I like put him down and they were like, "What are you doing with those lights?" And I was like, "Oh, I I thought we were supposed to set up for work here."

10:52And they were like, "Okay, carry on." >> Oh, nice. >> Yeah. So then I was just like, you know, I was like, "I got to do opium forever. It makes me bulletproof." [laughter] Like apparently under the powers of opium, I'm the most persuasive person ever. >> And then that kind of drug logic, you try and apply it to like charming your teachers or whatever it is.

11:08And you're like on the nod in rhetoric class. >> How old were you when you were doing this? >> 18, 19. >> Okay. So this is college, like first years of college. >> And how were you consuming this opium? You smoking it? >> Oh, yeah. Smoking it. We we bought like a very like we all pulled our money to get like a special opium pipe.

11:27>> What do they look like? >> I can't I was so high on opium. I don't know. [laughter] We were always smoking in the back of someone's car, you know? So, it's like the ritual of it was never there. It was like let's get high and like go to Cece's Pizza Buffet, you know? Yeah. >> But that is a ritual.

11:39It's not traditional, but >> Oh, dude. >> All rituals eventually become traditional if you >> Do is it Was [clears throat] it this stuff? Do you know? >> No, but uh >> dragon's blood something like that because they're say I'm looking it up. I typed in red dragon opium, but it says it's actually not opium and it was sold back then.

11:55>> What is it? >> I mean, it could have easily been fake. >> It does not contain opium. >> Yeah. Awesome. >> Oh, so what is it? >> One article I think I just clicked on said it potentially was like the THC9 stuff. Maybe like an early version of it. >> Huh. >> What year was this? 2005 six. >> Huh. >> Yeah.

12:11>> Misbranded as a drug. See, I said a delta 9. >> Okay. >> It was an unknown red substance. That was exactly what we were purchasing. >> So, you guys thought it was opium? >> Literally, a man named Snake from Garden City, Kansas, said, "This is opium." And we were like, "Awesome." And he was a white guy with dreadlocks in 2005, so it was still brave.

12:33>> Like a Gary Oldman looking dude. >> God, Gary Oldman. We'd be lucky if you look like Gary Oldman. >> Well, do you remember that from what was it from? True Romance. >> Oh, yes. Yeah, dude. >> No, it was more of like uh The Matrix Twins. >> Okay. Okay. >> Remember those albino twins on the Matrix? Who fought?

12:51>> You know what I'm talking about? >> Matrix twins. >> The movie The Matrix. >> The Albinos. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Why do I not remember? They're in the sequel. They were like the >> Show me a couple albino twins. >> Oh, the sequel. >> Yeah, these Yeah, this is what he looked like. >> Oh boy. I don't remember those guys.

13:06>> Yeah. >> Oh, now I do. Okay. Okay. Okay. >> And he uh he was kind of our our doula in a way. [snorts] Boy. So, >> I moved from a very small town to Denver and I was easily tricked into all types of like romantic notions. I was rude. Yeah. >> And Burrows got you in. What? What Burrow's book specifically?

13:27>> Oh man, probably Queer and Junkie. >> Those two for sure. Naked Lunch always seemed like he was like I hated it. >> Really? >> Yeah man. It's like look I understand that you're like Jackson Pollocking and you've earned that right as like a master of the form like as a writer. M >> he wrote queer, he wrote junkie, he wrote other things that were easily digestible and now he's kind of letting his freak flag fly and like swinging his dick, but like at the end of the day as a reader,

13:53>> it's really hard to like enjoy a book that doesn't have any discernable story. >> I see. >> Like I still like a plot, you know what I mean? Right. >> So yeah, it was queer and junky and my dad was cool. My dad gave me really cool books early on and like good music. So >> and also Hunter obviously like Hunter S.

14:12Thompson was a huge deal, especially cuz we were in Colorado. So, like there was like the Owl Farm thing and like my dad would like >> we're going to go up to Owl Farm and I don't think he ever did, but it was always an aspiration. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I think his ex-wife still lives there. >> Oh, yeah.

14:26And my friend Liz like worked for her and uh I would really love [gasps] >> You want to hear like a petty memory I have? >> Yeah. You know how you like like I'm at Shane's thing and Jamie is like talking to Bam Margera and I'm like life is big enough to include the fact that like I'm watching Jamie talk to BM Marggera while my friend does Eagle Stadium.

Owl Farm and spite as motivation

14:48Like there's all these weird little like so uh what the [ __ ] was I talking about? >> How did you start this? >> Yeah, how did I start this? Okay. We went from THC to the Matrix guys to Hunter S. Thompson >> to Owl Farm >> to Owl Farm >> to >> Oh, petty being petty. >> Petty. >> So, I remember in like 2008 there was this guy in Denver who like got to go finish his novel at Owl Farm.

15:18>> And really? Yeah. And it was like everyone was like, "That's so cool." And I of course was like a jock comedian who was like, "Fuck him. He's a poser." You know? And then his book came out and I read it and I was like, "Damn, it's pretty [snorts] moving. I love the second part, you know?" So, it's like I still remember that guy.

15:34And I hit up my friend Liz and I was like, "Hey, could I like maybe go finish this book like at Owl Farm?" And she was like, "They don't do that anymore." And I was like, "I remember the guy's name." I was like, "You let blank do it." And she was like, "Oh, how do you remember that? No one ever remembers that."

15:48And I was like, "I remember it because of spite." You know, so there's like a lot of things that I only remember because it made me mad and feel weak. [sighs and gasps] >> That's funny. But that's at a different stage in your life. The the stage of your life where you're trying to get something going, trying to succeed, you're very vulnerable to spite, very vulnerable to envy.

16:09>> Well, it's a real pure burning fuel. You know, rage, hate, all these things. Like, they really >> get you your octane up quick. >> Yeah. Unfortunately, it consumes the vessel that's holding it. Oh yeah. It's the worst one. It's a poison. It's corrosive. >> It's a poison. Yeah. It's very sad to see people that you like fall prey to that.

16:27Or people that you have liked in the past who you see them lash out at people that are doing well and you realize it's it's it's so the map is so clear. It's because they're not doing well. It's always what it is. >> Well, it's easier to uh be mad at people than to better your own position. >> It's like I lost all this weight and people are like, "You look sick."

16:48And like beforehand, people were like, "Look how fat this guy is. He's the fattest guy ever." And it's like, "All right, what do you want? Why are you guys so obsessed with my body?" >> Well, there is no solution. You cannot make everyone happy. It will not happen. It's impossible. >> And when you do try to make everyone happy, the [ __ ] that you make as like an artist is so bad cuz you're trying to make [ __ ] for, you know, the comment section.

Stand-up, social media, and promotion

17:10And it's like >> I never got in. When I got into standup, it was 2005. And like all the things that we have to do now as comedians weren't there. you could just like be funny, maybe do coning, and then like you got to do all the funny bones. And like that was all I wanted. I wanted to like be in clubs.

17:26>> And now all the [ __ ] that surrounds comedy is like super embarrassing and cringe and I hate it. Like promo, >> you know, like make the Instagram post, like, >> you know, any of that [ __ ] that's like >> like like all the [ __ ] that my super successful friends are good at is [ __ ] that makes me want to like buy a bullet and rent a gun, you [laughter] know?

17:45Like I want to like hang myself from a sturdy rope when I'm like, "Oh yeah, I gotta get engagement. I need to comment the first 30 minutes that the post is up so that more people will see it." It's like I want to pay someone so much money to do all of this so I don't have to anymore. >> Well, you could or you could just post that's where you're going to be and then just leave it alone.

18:03That's probably the best solution because your fans certainly want to know when you're going to be somewhere and it sucks if you find out that a comic that you love came to your town and you missed out >> because they didn't post about it. >> So, you want to know. So, just make a post. Just make it I know you do, but I mean this is my advice to people that get cringed out by that.

18:23Just make a post and walk away. >> Yeah. And then people are going to like, "Fuck you. [ __ ] this. [ __ ] that." They're going to do that. The comments are going to be filled with all sorts of nonsense and you're going to feel weird about it. So, just don't look at it. Think DraftKings isn't available where you live?

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19:50$50 in rewards issued every 7 days via click to claim for 21 days. One non-withdrawable reward redeemable. NBA League pass autorenews until canceled. Terms at dk&ng.co/audio. Limited time offer. nationwide based on sportsbook predictions and free-to-play sports contest availability varies by state. >> It's more that it feels fraudulent to me.

20:09You know what I mean? It's not so much I'm worried about people disliking whatever dumb promo post I put. It's just like I'm worried that people will be able to understand how hollow the sentiment is that I'm communicating. Like I'm going to the Funny Bone in Hartford this weekend. I'm stoked to be there.

Connecticut, New Haven, and club audiences

20:26>> Hartford, Connecticut. >> Yeah. Yeah. But I think to any of the people who like go to that club and have been going to that club, if I were to say, "I'm coming to my favorite club in the country, the Hartford Funny Bone," they'd be like, "This guy's a [ __ ] liar. We go there. It's the can't possibly be."

20:39How many other clubs does he do? >> Unless you really like people that are stuck. You don't like Connecticut. >> People are stuck. >> The WWE, >> by the way, one of my best friends lives in Connecticut. I should just say I love people in Connecticut, but I used to say that Connecticut's not a real state.

20:55It's a highway between Boston and New York. >> I think that's fair. >> It's real. Listen, I performed in Connecticut a lot in my early days, and it is the worst place on earth, >> dude. >> Not on earth. Not true. I I'm sure, you know, performing in Iraq currently, it would probably be a lot worse. >> I bet it's electric when you kill, though.

21:12[laughter] >> I bet if you can get a standing O, that's a good feeling, bro. Yeah. >> Inshalah, baby. >> It's just there's a thing about Connecticut that's like they're stuck. Yeah, >> they're stuck or they're really rich and they chose to not live in New York City and so they live in like there's these like very bizarre towns that are extreme like where my buddy who's a good I've been friends with this guy for 34 years I think he worked at a high school in like a private school a very ritzy

21:44private school like Keith Richards brought his kids there like a lot of these very famous people like very very wealthy people billionaires They have these massive estates in Connecticut. >> That's Connecticut. And then the rest of Connecticut is sort of this weird highway. >> Oh yeah. >> Where people are stuck.

22:01>> And also like where Yale is, you go to the Yale campus and it's like beautiful and historic. And then you walk like three blocks away. >> It's [ __ ] New Haven. >> Yeah. It's like very impoverished and you know the crimes of desperation happen there a lot. >> But the greatest pizza on earth. >> I love that stuff.

22:17>> New Haven pizza. >> Yeah. That thin what they call it like an a pizza, right? >> Yeah. beats. >> Are you that kind of Italian? >> What kind is that? >> The kind who like [laughter] says like a you know like a gaba ghoul, you know, like do you put the stink on it? >> I don't say that. I don't. No, I've I've kind of left that at a very early age.

22:36>> You're like the last remaining Italian man. You got to get out there. >> There's a few I know >> go to the east coast. There's a lot a lot of us left >> that are in positions of prominence. >> I see. >> Cuz I grew up in a world where Italians it was like they were cool, you know? Like >> that was because of the Sopranos, >> dude.

22:51And of course all those great mob movies really made. >> Yeah, but they they made Italians way too cocky. There's a lot of Italians that thought it was really cool just to be Italian because all these like a lot of guys they put it on you. Hey, [ __ ] you going to hang out with Johnny? >> Yeah. >> Like they they added to it.

23:07>> Yeah. >> I'm saying you should do that. That's exactly what I'm saying you should do. Become one of those guys. >> It's too late. >> I don't know. You can change. >> Mity Shore. She used to have this show uh Night of a Thousand Guidos. she would do like this uh an Italian show and she asked me to do it.

23:21Once I did it was like it was so embarrassing cuz a lot of the people on the show other than guys like Donna Herrera who are great comics who just happen to be Italian. >> A lot of the people were only on because they were Italian. She was finding like mediocre Italian comics to be on the show and it was just [ __ ] hell.

23:37>> I mean I'm also regretting I'm not trying to say any negative Italian sentiment. I realize I'm going to Governors in Long Island on Wednesday. So >> Italians, you know I love you. Uh, but you know, please. >> Great club, by the way. Governors, >> my agent said, >> I was the only person who asked to go back to Governors after their first time.

23:56>> Really? >> Yeah. I was like, I love it. It feels like the road. >> Oh, I love Long Island. >> It reminds me of like real comedy when I started. >> Oh, yeah. When I lived in New York, I very rarely did the city. >> Um, because uh I was a road comic in Boston, you know, like Boston, the way it works is if you're real clean or in the 80s.

24:12If you're real clean, you can work the clubs in town, but if you're not clean, most of your work is going to be in the bars outside. And so that's what I did. Yeah. I did mostly bar shows. And so I was traveling around to here to there. I was doing, you know, Ravier and all these different places. >> And when I went to New York, I was like, if I'm in town, I I do 10 minutes, I make 10 bucks or whatever the [ __ ] it was.

24:36>> Or I could just do the road and make like $200 and do an hour. Like, why would I do I'll do that. So I did Long Island same way, bro. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Well, it's like also like Hicks was a big hero of mine and I know he was like he was an anomaly in that he wasn't a city comic. He was a road comic.

24:51He was like one of the most brilliant but yet was doing his kind of comedy to people that wouldn't necessarily go to see his type of comedy if they knew what it was. >> Yeah. And that's what was so like that's why he became such a force. >> Yeah. Because I think a lot of comedy now like people do comedy for people who think exactly like them, >> right?

25:15>> And like I can do a papered room and I'm like I'm very proud of that. >> Like cuz it's not like you know I'm not moving every ticket every weekend. So sometimes they'll be like late show Saturday we're going to paper 50 and I'm like yeah >> and papered for people who don't know what we're talking about.

25:28It's like free tickets. >> Free tickets. >> They give away free tickets so they can sell liquor. >> Right. Exactly. drinks and they don't care what you're up to or if they're going to make an extra $400 on Budlight. >> Yeah. The problem with that I've always found is I I did a lot of those shows too, but the people aren't very invested in the show.

25:45So, you get a lot of chatty folks >> and they don't watch a clip. So, when you say a word that they don't like, they're like, "What the [ __ ] is this?" And it's like, "You couldn't watch me do one minute before [laughter] you decided to drive down here and get parking." You know, it's it's so strange.

25:58You wouldn't do that at a music show. You're going to listen to a song before you go to the show. >> Maybe. I mean, maybe if you went to a Well, it depends on the kind of club. See, that's I think that's one of the issues with comedy, and I talk about this a lot, is that like comedy has one genre, whereas music, you you know, if you're going to a music club and you see hip hop and then Guns and Roses and then Joanie Mitchell, you'd be like, "What the [ __ ] kind of club is this?

26:23This is crazy." Whereas in comedy, you could see all sorts of different perspectives and styles. you could see, you know, loud people, people who do music, people who do all kinds of weird [ __ ] on stage like comedy has no I mean it does have genres, you know, I mean, especially to people that like to classify things that like to put things into categories and boxes and but the reality is it's just perspectives.

26:50It's his comedy is here's the world through my eyes. And everyone is different. And it's like you don't know if you're going to go see Guns and Roses or if you're going to go see Barry Manalo. You really don't know if you're just going to go see comedy. Like let's go to Cap City and go to the comedy club and let's see who's there this weekend.

27:08You know, Bob [ __ ] Oh, okay. I hope he's good. Well, he's at Cap City. It's got to be good. And so you go there and then, you know, you hope it's something that you'll laugh at. And that was me at many of the looney bins for about seven years was like I was Bob [ __ ] >> And I got really good at that.

27:23And then if you can get good at that when you first get your opportunity >> to like if people are going to get free tickets cuz it's their birthday in 3 months and they just so happen to win them right now and they go see you. If you can trick half those people into coming back next time. >> Yeah. >> Like that was always my big thing.

27:39Like when I first started getting these big opportunities, like when Tim Dylan took me on the road, uh when I first got on this show or Kill Tony, people start coming out for the first time to see me. And I was not concerned with that first time. I'm concerned with the next time, right? >> Cuz I want them to come back and bring two people and then the next time bring eight people.

27:59>> Yes. >> So it's like >> I was very grateful but also aware that like this was my opportunity to plant seeds that would grow later on. Well, that's what we used to do back in the day. It was called building a market. And you would just go into a town and it was a slow, laborious process that took years.

28:16>> And I did that. I went from 40 people in Omaha to 80 to 160 to adding shows. And it's like, >> that's fun. >> It was great. >> Yeah. That's a really satisfying, rewarding thing when you've actually built a market. >> Yeah, it feels good. And when people come out now and they're like, "This is the seventh time I've seen you."

28:32It's like, >> that's nice. I feel good, but I'm also immediately like, [ __ ] I hope I had like all new stuff this time, you know? Like, I know I have 50 new, but I still have five I'm closing on from last time I was in Chicago. >> And also, if someone's a Sam Talent fan, like, boy, you got to get you can't be nonchalant about that show.

28:49You got to get fired up. >> Oh, yeah. And they are. Yeah. >> I'm so grateful. And also now I get these like kids who come out cuz I'll do like Hivemind or Gillis, like the people who get like young people like in their demographics. >> Mh. So now I have like 22 year olds at the shows and man, you can see on their faces it's the first time they haven't been on their phone for 90 minutes in their entire life and they're sitting there and they like don't know what to do.

29:15And then I'll be like, "Hey, nice hat, stupid." And they're like, >> you know, [laughter] cuz like they don't know the rules or the conventions of this thing they're at. And then at the merch line afterward, they're always like, "That was my first show." And I'm like, "Bro, I think I set the bar pretty high."

The disastrous Kill Tony O2 show

29:27Like >> Jeremy Clarkson. Yeah. You know, do you know who he is? >> He came to Kill Tony the other night and he said it was his first time at a comedy club. >> Whoa. >> Yeah. >> And so >> like he didn't know what Kill Tony was. Didn't understand it. Jimmy Carr took him. >> Weird. >> And uh he was like, "What is Kill Tony?"

29:47Yeah. >> Like he didn't understand how it worked. >> Gone show, sir. >> Yeah. For Yeah. [laughter] >> He's like, "My god, >> reinventing the form." Well, he just didn't know what it was. He's like, you know, how does this work? >> I think it's a deeply American phenomenon. >> Oh, standups most certainly is.

30:05>> No, I mean, Kill Tony specifically. >> Oh, yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Cuz I did the one at the O2 in London that no one will ever see cuz it was so bad. [laughter] >> Like that had to be buried in the desert. >> What was bad about it? >> Oh my god. >> Has Tony ever talked about this with you? >> Yeah. He told me it was a hell.

30:21>> Oh, it was the worst thing that's ever happened to me as an artist. It was brutal. We get there. >> Oh, Jesus Christ. And I we get there, man. And uh you know, it's like the biggest thing ever. Uh I'm very flattered to be asked to be on it. Uh we we get there and the show is starting later. And the people who work at the the security people are like, "These are people that we traditionally don't get attending performances.

30:44A lot of these people took the train in or came from the countryside and they're um it seems like they're drinking beers in the parking lot." And I was like, "Yo, they're tailgating." And they were like, "What's that mean?" And I was like, "Oh, you guys aren't aware of this phenomenon." So, we get out there and he put out the band and the band plays for a while and uh we're all in the back and they're waiting for people to trickle in and before the show starts, there's various fist fights and be people are

31:11being removed for doing cocaine at their seats like at Studio 54. [laughter] So, we're in the back and like, >> "Oh, this sounds great. What happened wrong?" >> Oh, well, hold on. Let me get to the funny part. So, so [snorts] dude, we come out finally and Redban and Tony get their do a plum and then they're like, "Are you ready for your guest?"

31:31And everyone is like >> that Tony impression. >> Everyone, who's ready? Uh, this man is a legend in show business and they I think everyone thinks it's Pierce Morgan because I was told Pierce Morgan was going to do it. So, I have all these great jokes about uh calling him 007. I I was going to [ __ ] him up and call him Pierce Brozen the whole night.

31:52So I have like about 30 minutes of funny Pierce Morgan jokes, right? Yeah, it would have been great. >> Pierce Morgan can't make it. So it's just Sam Talent. And when they say Sam Talent, people are like, "All right, cool." And they're waiting for someone else. Probably a British celebrity. No, no, it's just me.

32:08So we sit down and we do our best. And the first comic who comes out is a bucket person, you know, or no, I think I can't remember who went first, but the first bucket comes out and they say, "Uh, so I rode the train in from Essex." And a packed O2 starts screaming, "Fuck Essex. Your dogs. EVERYONE FROM ESSEX [ __ ] THEIR MOTHER.

32:33BACK UP NORTH, YOU PIKEY." LIKE, >> WOW. >> It's insane. And then this comic is immediately his ego is shattered. His brain's exploded. It's his worst nightmare ever. There's an arena screaming at him and then he has to stumble into his punchline. Goes terribly. Try to do the interview and it's like, "So, how long have you been doing it?"

32:52And he's like looking around like he just came out of a coma, you know, and he's like, "Oh, this is my first time ever doing standup." >> Oh boy. >> I think of the bucket pulls on that show, the most tenured performer had done it six times. >> Holy [ __ ] So you had a literal arena full of people who have taken the train or flown in from all over Europe for this >> and then dude like there so there was very every time a comic would say so you know I'm from Pakistan every slur you've

33:23ever heard from snuff comes out you know like [laughter] and me and Tony and Redban are up there like >> what the [ __ ] >> get to the joke you know okay you know so every time anyone says anything people scream there's fist fights going on there's people screaming up constantly and then dude this guy came out and said, "So I'm from Israel."

33:45That's his opener. The room immediately turns and I there's a there's an Irish contingency up front because people have flags like it's WWE. So there's an Irish contingency over here and there's a Northern Irish contingency over here. And both of them decide that they're going to agree on [ __ ] Israel.

34:04and the guy on so they start yelling like [ __ ] you you genocidal pig you monster you should be ashamed of yourself and the comic stage says from the river to the sea or whatever and at that point a guy tries to climb the barricade one of the Irish dudes and I'm like I say to Tony it's the only time I've ever used the mute button I'm like dude we got to get him out of here this isn't safe like this guy has to go so Tony immediately is like okay and like threw him a joke book

34:30get him out of there it devolved so bad by the end that um like when we walked off I once the show ends I went into the green room and literally like put my hands on the sink and stared into the mirror for like 5 minutes. >> Whoa. >> Yeah. And I was like do I want this? Like do I aspire to be an arena act?

34:54Like this was the worst thing that ever [ __ ] happened to me. Like [sighs and gasps] and then you know God bless him. It was Tony's birthday weekend. So we were having a lot of fun. And this was actually when me and Tony became like friends friends because I got to spend like three days with him and like his brother like seeing him be a guy.

35:09It was fun. But uh Tony, it's his birthday. They bring him a cake and I'm like rocked, man. I'm shattered, you know? I'm like like I called my wife. I was like, "Honey, maybe I can like become a teacher." [laughter] Like I think I think Wayne State would let me like teach, you know? >> How many years ago was this?

35:27>> This was two years ago. Yeah. It was right. I was in Paris all of May of 2024. for finishing this and then I went and did that after my month in Paris and uh they bring in this cake for Tony for his birthday and it's like hey you sold out the O2 like you're the number one selling podcast in the history of the O2 arena and everyone sings him happy birthday and I hear Tony say they spelled my name wrong and it's like bro this is like all of your dreams coming true and he still was like ah they

35:57[ __ ] up my name and I was like okay yeah I gotta I gotta figure out what I actually want to do because like [laughter] it's not being an arena act. And then everywhere we would walk it's like you know when you like you're insanely famous. You're like the most famous guy I know. And like I we haven't like chilled in public but I've been in public with Will Smith.

36:15I've been in public with Shane Gillis. >> They can't go anywhere. >> Like there's like tunnels in every building that are like for Will Smith and guys like Shane. It's like Shane we do Grand Rapids. He can't walk and get a coffee in the morning. It's an hour and a half procedure cuz everyone that sees him has to get a picture.

36:31It's like you can no longer exist as a person. It's like I would much rather not be hyper rich and like still be able to just go in the world than like to have all the money. Like what do how is it? What's it like? >> Yeah, it's odd but it is what it is, >> right? You just accept it. The the key is like the real problem is people interrupt things.

36:54The like they want to interrupt dinners. They want to come over to your table. That's that's a problem. That's that's an issue. And it's it's it's a little rude while they're interrupting while you're in the middle of a meal. I know they're just trying to be nice. >> But in public, the key is just you got to you got to learn to reset with every person that you meet.

37:13>> Like reset. This is a completely new it's just not oh my god, another person. You have to reset. >> Yeah. have an honest interaction, a sincere interaction >> and but the the real problem is then it becomes a line and then it becomes a thing where people who don't even know who the [ __ ] you are want to take a picture with you >> dude we were we were in that coffee shop with Shane and an old Asian man came over and it was just like in Chinese or whatever Mandarin was like picture our

Fame, strangers, and media decline

37:35picture and Shane looks at me and he's like this guy doesn't speak English let's get a photo >> he had no idea who he was but he [clears throat] saw everyone taking pictures with this guy >> yeah it's just like >> that's a weird thing with cameras with phones cameras and phones And then social media likes, you know, if you have a picture with Shane Gillis, you're going to get thousands of likes >> for sure.

37:52But then you're just an object to be used to exploit. And it's like, >> I don't know, man. >> You got to learn how to handle it. And it's uh it's not normal. >> Do you think our brains can learn to handle it? >> Yeah, you can handle it. I think Yeah, I handle it pretty good. I handle it pretty good. But it's uh it's not for everybody and it's definitely not easy.

38:13It's it's odd and it's not something that I ever asked for. I mean, I wasn't looking for it. It's like >> it just happened. And so, you just have to say, "Okay, well, this is what life is now." >> Mhm. >> You know, it's not the worst thing. I mean, online, it's horrible. People hate me online. I know >> a lot of people do.

38:28But in real life, people are very nice. Like, almost always. And even if they disagree with me, you know, they once they have a few words with me, they realize I'm very reasonable. Well, it's like they've made you and like Shane and Tony into like very convenient targets because like you know pain leads to panic and panic leads to fear and fear leads to anger and anger leads to hate.

38:47So it's like you have been made this billboard. >> Here's what I think it is man is like media died right like in our lifetimes like there's no more newspapers >> right? >> Right. Like there's no more radio like TV's not there anymore. >> So like everyone's looking around being like what the [ __ ] happened?

39:03And there's this guy named Dennis Johnson who's my favorite writer ever. And he said, uh, when drastic changes occur, it's much easier to say it's a crime and ask who did it as opposed to saying it's a failure and to ask what happened. So, I feel like they're trying to assign a lot of blame to people because everyone's like, "What what's going on?"

39:27And then they look and you're the biggest thing. You know, Shane's the biggest thing. So, it's like, okay, we can all decide that like this person who's replaced the media that we had is the enemy. And it's like, okay, well, the New York Times can write as many op-eds on how you're the enemy of progress, but like, will they call it a genocide?

39:46No. So, it's like, who the [ __ ] are we supposed to trust or believe? And like, I always say, dude, cuz like I have a bunch of leftist friends who get mad that I come on your show, you know? Yeah. Like, whatever. Like, >> I lived in I lived in an anarchist commune, you know? Like, did you really? >> Yeah, man.

40:03Like, >> we'll talk about that in a moment. >> Yeah. I mean, I was a punk rocker. I still am. I hope. >> But it's like I really would have loved to have been in the era of comedy where you like go on Conan and then you get to sell your tickets, you know? But it's like how is you one guy who's independent, you know?

40:21I guess Spotify's money is involved or whatever, but they don't [ __ ] censor you, right? >> They don't do anything. >> Yeah. So, it's like one guy being independent and having conversations. How is that worse than like the facade of going on Kimmel or going on Fallon or going on Conan back in the day?

Division, phones, and gardening

40:38And like yeah, like these are like good guys who were silly, but ultimately they're on NBC who's owned by whatever holding company who's owned by one of the seven corporations who owns the world. And like their whole thing is selling ad space for like Nestle and [ __ ] Black Rockck or whatever subsidiary is like the one they put the face on.

40:55Like that was bad, but it was fine. So now you're one guy who's having conversations and they're like, "This is bad. This is this is cancerous." >> Well, it's completely normal to always to attack the most popular thing. Yeah. Always. You know, always the most popular thing is bad. No matter what it is, it's if it's a film, if it's music, if it's a podcast, whatever it is, it's always bad.

41:21And you know, it's you're always going to have that. It's just the you're you're not going to fix people. You're not going to fix perspectives and give people clarity and give people the ability to make sort of uh rational, objective, charitable observations about who a person actually is. It's very easy to just caricaturize someone.

41:47>> Yeah. >> And so I get it. >> And then if you are a person who will defend these guys in these spaces, it's like, well then, okay, you're brainwashed. You're co-opted. And it's like >> you just have to stop listening to comments. Like that's really the most important thing. >> No, these are like face tof face conversations.

42:01You know what I mean, >> right? But you're probably talking to broken people. >> Uh I don't know. I'm talking to my friends. I'm talking to people. >> Any of your friends broken? >> Oh, yeah. >> Yeah, they do. >> Yeah. Most of them are comics. >> Yeah. >> But also, dude, it's weird cuz like I talk to people a lot who I don't share like the exact ideals with.

42:17Like I don't like that you [ __ ] endorse Trump, but like I have a lot of friends who voted for Trump. And it's like a lot of people don't ever hang out with anyone else who thinks different because first of all, we don't hang out face to face. >> You're not meeting new people. Everyone works from home.

42:32Everyone's online. No one's bowling or [ __ ] playing pool anymore. You know what I mean? So, it's like, >> yeah, you can diff you can disagree with someone and still know that they're like a decent person. And like I like to define myself on am I a good husband? Am I a good uncle? Am I a good son? Am I a good brother?

42:52And it's like, if I thought that you guys were bad, like I wouldn't [ __ ] do business with you. It's asinine. It makes me so mad, bro. Anyway, I'm sorry. >> No, it's fine. I listen, it used to be that people used to be able to differ in their opinions and have conversations >> cuz they were your neighbors.

43:08But today we have become so divided and I think a big factor is social media echo chambers propaganda bots gaslighting and then there's it seems like there's so much riding on everything constantly because you're looking at your phone all the time and everything on the phone is this is the end. This is the end.

43:32This is the beginning of the end. This is a signal of the end. the only hope is to stop this and on both sides >> and both sides this is the and you're people are addicted to their phones. So like the information that you're getting almost all day long >> is very bleak and very dire. Yeah. >> It's it's constant >> cuz that's what sells units.

43:53Like fear is the best way to manipulate people. Yeah. >> Forms of coercion >> and >> engagement. Yeah. Engagement, man. And it's like the phone replaced the world. Like we're all staring into this [ __ ] rectangular void and it's like I I've become like a big gardener, man, because like it connects me to [ __ ] that is real.

44:12Like I've built my own compost. Like I know my soil. >> Like I've learned the different sections of my backyard that like get more sunlight and like get more water. And it's like these were incredibly boring to me probably 10 years ago. But now in this world that's so empty and so like just devoid of anything palpable and real, like me being back there and watching my [ __ ] Dalia grow is like just as valuable and nutritious to me as it's anything that was ever on my phone, >> right?

44:42>> And like yeah, I'm not like learning or like uh I'm not like, you know, thinking I'm learning and I'm not engaging with people and I'm not getting the reward of like people being like cool nice garden cuz I'm not posting that [ __ ] Like I had a pumpkin that grew like a clitoris in the back of like dude, >> you seen this pumpkin?

45:01>> You have a pumpkin? >> I had a trellis and my pumpkins grew up this trellis >> and I had a pumpkin that was dangling like like the uvula in the back of your throat when I got home one time and I just sat there and stared at this pumpkin for like two days. >> Aren't pumpkins supposed to be on the ground?

45:16>> Yeah, man. Yeah, they are. There it is, baby. That's the sky pumpkin. >> Interesting. And of course, I had to like put it online, you know, because that's what you do with anything good that happens to you. >> Cute little doggy. >> Yeah, man. That's Danny. >> Sweet Danny. >> That's a nice pumpkin, >> right?

45:32But like that's magic. >> The squirrels got it after we carved it. >> Those [ __ ] >> That's all right. >> You were carving it though, meaning you weren't going to eat it anyway. >> No, I don't want to eat a pumpkin. >> Pumpkin pie. >> I'm not a hippo. >> Pumpkin pie is delicious. >> Pumpkin pie is good.

45:46>> You ever have roasted pumpkin? >> I've had roasted pumpkin. There's a delicious recipe, or it looks delicious, at least I should say, that I want to try. I saw this guy, he cooked a chicken inside of a pumpkin. And what he did was he took an actual pumpkin, he hollowed it out, and inside of it, he put a a chicken, he put all these herbs and spices on the chicken, and they put a bunch of potatoes and tomatoes and carrots and a bunch of things inside with the pumpkin.

46:12And I feel like maybe he put chicken broth or chicken stock in there as well. and then put the whole thing inside of an oven. And so the pumpkin sort of collapsed and then pulls it out after whatever amount of time and opened it and pulled this chicken out. It was moist and delicious. And then >> plated it up.

46:31Looked fantastic. I want to try it. >> That's chicken in a pumpkin. >> Yeah. >> You're saying eat the pumpkin. But he ate the pumpkin. >> I want to eat the chicken. >> But pumpkin tastes good. >> Pumpkin's okay. I like the seeds. >> No, but but the pumpkin meat, if you cook it right, is good. >> Look, man.

46:44>> Pumpkin You don't like pumpkin pie? >> I do not. >> Really? I like good pie. That's not a holdover from World War II. >> Pumpkin pie. >> Victory Garden. Yeah, that was like, hey, you know, the GIS are coming home. >> That's like my favorite. >> Well, hey, man. >> Pumpkin pie with a little bit of whipped cream on it.

46:58Oh, it's so good. >> It's subjective. You're allowed to like pie. Yeah, >> I'm not I'm angry at you that you like pumpkin pie. >> I I get angry about subjectivity because people will be like, "You're not funny." And it's like, well, it's subjective. Like, what are you talking about? Like trying to apply objective rules and boundaries to standup is like the most asinine thing.

47:18>> It's silly. >> It's crazy. >> It's silly. It's a wasted effort. Like to be upset at people for not liking what you like or liking what you don't like is just >> it's a waste of energy. >> Quit thought policing. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Well, people just don't want anyone to differ from them and they don't want to be on the wrong path.

47:33They want to don't want to be incorrect. Especially if culture seems to be leaning in a certain direction and they're not. They don't want to have to shift gears. So instead they attack it. Oh yeah. >> People have to learn to just accept, >> you know, like I've seen people angry that Taylor Swift is the biggest musician in the world.

47:47Like like why? Why do you care? >> Also, she's got some good songs and if you don't think so, you probably haven't listened. Like if you didn't know who she was, >> if you didn't if she didn't have Taylor Swift attached to her and like No Body, No Crime is a [ __ ] great song. >> It's a great song. And if you if it was just some indie artist who just wrote that, some unknown lady who wrote that song and and performed, you'd be like, "This is a really good song."

48:13>> I think it's just like a fun contrarian thing to be like the popular thing is bad without any kind of like looking into it. >> Well, there's also people that like things when those things are not popular and then when they become popular, oh, they [ __ ] sold out. Like, okay, >> that's me. [laughter] That's a lot of people.

48:30>> That's punk rock. >> I know. And like Kyle Canain said it best. He's like, "I'm not here for purity test from fair weather fans." And it's like, "I'm not either." Like >> that's a very good quote. >> He's the man, dude. >> Yeah. He's a very smart guy. >> Him. Rory. Like I've I've been having a lot of conversations with people that are like really good and I'm heartened.

48:48I'm like I'm solid, but man, I got to just like I got to find the [ __ ] about standup that I adored that like made me devote my life to it, you know, and like fall back in love with it because >> Did you run into a period where you didn't? Like are you you struggling with that? >> I still love on stage.

49:02I love I'm so grateful for like the meet and greet aspect. I love talking to the people. I love putting my armpits on their necks after the show and taking the pictures, you know. [laughter] >> What don't you love? >> Uh I mean 45 weekends a year in an airport's tough, you know. Uh ticket counts are [ __ ] brutal.

49:20You know, the emails, >> the promo stuff. uh trying like trying to be like a normal person while also constantly promoting yourself is so strange. Like >> yeah, >> and it's not why I got into it. Like if I could sell 600 tickets a weekend in a city, like that's all I want. And I can do that now. But then you get agents and like they're awesome, but they're also like why don't we add a show?

49:43And it's like cuz no one's going to come to the four o'clock on Saturday. >> They just want money. >> Exactly. >> Yeah. You have to ignore them. That's where a manager comes into play. I just got management and they're they're [ __ ] good, dude. >> That's good. If you got a good manager, a good manager, so for people that don't understand this, um, a manager looks out for your career.

Managers, agents, and building Austin

50:02An agent works for you. So, a manager is a partner, right? Like a man, I've had the same manager since I was an open micer. >> Whoa. >> Yeah. He found me in Boston. Yeah. In 19 >> 90 or 91. >> So, you've grown together as men. That's cool. >> We don't even have a contract. Mhm. >> We don't have no legal paperwork.

50:21We handle >> I'm sure that'll wind fine at the end. >> It's been good. >> It's been forever. He's >> Listen, it's not that I don't know where the money goes. It's not that. It's just that we don't It's not like I don't We don't have to like resign some stupid thing every 5 years. I would I'd rather cut my fingers off than [ __ ] him over.

50:42>> That's how I feel about most parts of standup. Yeah. But it's different in that the manager looks out for the whole of your career, you know. So, there's like two people now that he he brought in a woman and she's been my manager now for he's kind of semi-retired. She's been my manager for more than a decade.

51:01>> But it's a different thing than an agent, especially if you're with a big agency. So, a big agency, there's like a lot of pre like I had a a friend who got offered this deal. he has a a pretty big podcast. He got offered this deal and uh the deal involved being connected to some other people and being a part of a network.

51:21I said, "Don't do it. Do not do it." I go, he goes, "What's your thought?" I go, "Well, first of all, you're right now you're independent. Do you know how much money you would pay to be independent?" Like, if you got connected to this and then all of a sudden you have a bunch of other people that you have to answer to and they're saying, "Hey, you know, we could sell more advertising if you stop talking about Israel, right?

51:40or we could sell more advertising if you just stopped using this word or that word or bring up these subjects. You know, the advertisements, you know, it's it's an issue. Like if as soon as that starts happening, you're [ __ ] and right now he doesn't have any of that. Right now he's independent and he can do whatever the [ __ ] he wants.

51:56I go, >> you're f you're not poor, right? You're you're making good money, right? Like keep doing that. Do not let it grow. It'll you're you're very talented. It'll keep growing. >> These people want to bleed you and that's all they want. They want more. They want extra shows. They want you to be on the road every weekend.

52:16>> I have an agent. She's a lovely lady, but every time I talk to her, why do you got to do arenas again? Like it's just cuz they just want that money. They just want the money >> and they're not the ones like going to the airport. >> They're not missing their kids like games and stuff. >> For me, it's like when I moved here, I was like, "Okay, if I'm going to take my kids and move them to another state, one of the things that I want to do is be around a lot more often."

52:37And I can. And so if I can, I should. Yeah. And I don't I don't want to be on the road 60 >> [ __ ] dates a a year. It's just like it's too much. >> I don't I don't like it. I don't like doing it. It wears you out and it doesn't seem as fun. I do like going to places and I do like the fact that people want to come and I appreciate them very much.

53:00>> But I having a club, having my own club has been the greatest [ __ ] thing that I've ever done. >> It's such a solid move cuz like now you're grounded. You have a community. M >> and you have like this sick place you've built where you know you don't have to leave town and all your friends come to town now >> like I come to town like people are popping in every weekend you know >> that's it's a pretty righteous setup that you've created.

53:21>> Well we got super fortunate where a bunch of lights had to turn green at the exact right moment for it to be able to take place. This wouldn't have taken place without co >> Yeah. without CO and without the draconian lockdowns that California was implementing and all the [ __ ] that they were doing and the fact that other states weren't and that Texas wasn't and the fact that there was already sort of a history of comedy in Austin.

53:41It wasn't a huge town for comedy, but it was a great town to visit and do comedy. And Ron White, the fact that Ron White had already moved here. He moved here in 2018. >> Yeah. >> And so all those lights had to turn green at the right time. The comedy store had to be closed for a long time for over a year and a half.

53:59And we just got all the best employees from the comedy store to move out to Texas. We got all the comics to move out. >> And then I got all that Spotify money. So I'm like, "All right, let's do the right thing. Let's [ __ ] make a club that like really helps the development of comedians and really kind of >> I have a festival in Bentonville, Arkansas that me and my friend Ra run, my buddy Raj.

54:23>> What's it called? >> Uh the Big Diamond Comedy Festival. It's fun. People are like, "Why Bentonville? It's hilarious." I don't. Raj was like, "Let's go with Big Diamond." I said, "Hey, man." >> Okay. >> I go and I shake hands and kiss babies, you know, but we had Lucas McCra headline, one of your door guys.

54:37And it's like, that's cool that now little weird Lucas, who I knew long ago, is now like been given enough reps >> in a legitimate place where now I can trust them to be like, "Yeah, come do two shows on my festival." >> That feels good. >> It's not just our place, too. So the one of the cool things about what's happened in Austin is because of the success of the mothership >> and then all these comics moving here like 18 worldclass comics moved to Austin and so because of that and then

55:06all these other new comics who wanted to have a career and saw that like it's really difficult to get in in New York. It's really difficult to get in in LA and Austin is like this blossoming community and so they all moved here and now there's seven clubs on one street which is nuts. Within, you know, walking distance of the mothership, there's seven comedy clubs that at least a few nights a week have comedy.

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56:14And if you don't have eligible insurance or live outside the US, you can still get 20% off your first month, sign up and get 20% off at betterhelp.com/jre. That's betterhp.com/jre. And like the creek is >> amazing. >> Like awesome, you know? Like if if it was just the creek Yeah. that was here, like Austin would still be right on.

56:45Yeah. But the fact that like you built like an actual circus, you know, and then we're like clowns move here like [laughter] that benefited uh every other, you know, PT Barnames character. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Well, it also we set it up to develop comedy like you have the cornerstone of the club which is Kill Tony, right?

57:05That's like very important because it gives people an opportunity like if you you're on the road and you're grinding it out and you know you're barely getting by but you're kind of funny. You got you got something. It's just you don't have an audience yet and then you do one minute on Kill Tony and you get a golden ticket or you get that big joke book and then they ask you to come back and next next thing you know, holy [ __ ] you're selling out clubs on the weekend and people are

57:28coming to see you. You have [ __ ] fans. >> Yeah. And it creates a lot of work too. Like that's what I care about is the fact that like you know Tony has created so much opportunity for so many people who deserve it and some other people >> but you know [laughter] he has a pretty good hit ratio as far as who he decides to green light.

57:47>> You cannot have all hits. It's impossible >> and it's not what you want anyway. You want a little conflict. You want a little chaos. It's good. It's good for everybody. >> It's almost like the guy loves pro wrestling >> almost. >> Has anyone ever figured that part? People are like, "Oh, he's evil."

58:00It's like, oh, or maybe you're getting worked, Mark. You know, anyway, >> he's not even remotely evil. >> I told Tony he should put out that O2 Arena thing [laughter] as a 30 for 30. Like, we should do a breakdown of like why it went bad and like do the talk back 10 years later. >> Well, what he should do is put it out like Andrew Dice Clay's The Day the Laughter Die.

58:22>> Yeah. >> And it could be very self- aacing and very funny and very humanizing and I think that'd be a good idea. It wouldn't be a bad Well, it'll probably get millions of views. >> Oh, yeah. >> The worst Kill Tony ever. >> Did he bring regulars to perform? >> Yeah. Kim was there. >> Uh David was there.

58:37Ari was there. >> Kim Congden. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Uh so David Lucas. >> Uh Ari Maddie. How did they do? >> You know what was funny is like you know how Ari is like a shark? >> Yeah. >> Like Ari seems like he might be devoid of like human empathy sometimes cuz he's so driven and so Eastern European and he like comes from like blood that ate tubers, you know, and like War pelts.

58:58Yeah. War. Like his whole country has been defined by war. >> So Ari is like I was like, "Okay, Ari's going to go up and save the show. Like it's going to be fine. We got Ari coming out and Tony's like, "We're going to let Ari sit down and do panel." And I was like, "Please, please." Cuz I'm just covered in arrows, you know?

59:12[laughter] So I was like Little John and he was Robin Hood and they're hiding behind me. So what was weird though is that Ari had all of the people who cared about him came from Estonia. So in the very front row there was like 50 people who he'd grown up with who I met the night previous and throughout the evening.

59:29And he was nervous the first time I ever saw him because these are people who he cares about. So he wasn't the explosive, you know, Ari Mattie that we've come to expect. It was a guy who's like performing in front of his mom and aunt, you know, in an arena. It's the first time they've seen him. >> So then Ari sits down.

59:48His set went fine, but he sits down to do panel and he might have said three things. I kept being like, "What do you think, Ari?" And he was like, >> "Yes, I like it. [laughter] It's good. What you said is funny." >> Well, I think in order to do Kill Tony, one of the things that you have to have is a very strong local comedy community.

1:00:09And I'm not sure London has enough numbers. >> I think London does, but I think it was more that um the biggest >> Does London have enough numbers? >> I'd think so. >> Does it is it comparable to a big US city? I think London was is probably as comparable to New York, Chicago. I mean, if you took >> in terms of quality and like numbers.

1:00:28Yeah, I think so. Like there's a thousand really good comics in London. >> Dude, I know a lot of really funny. And the weird thing about London is like if you're a Dublin comic or a Belfast comic, like you'll go to London and do all So, it's like >> like if you imagine that like Austin spread like 600 miles in every direction and that included like, you know, >> Glasgow and a bunch of other like big cities.

1:00:51I think if you want to do it that way. But yeah, I think London has a bunch of great comics. >> So why didn't they have better bucket polls? >> I think that um a bunch of people saw that the American Spectacle was there and they decided that this was like, "Oh, I'm going to try standup for the first time ever.

Kill Tony London and comedy ambition

1:01:06This will be a laugh." >> Then they get out there and like they're shattered. Literally, you saw people's like entire identities rip in half. And then they had to do 50 more seconds. >> I've seen that at Madison Square Garden. I saw people do their very first set at Madison Square Garden, which is insane.

1:01:21Literally insane. An impossible task. >> Oh. Uh, I would not recommend it to anyone. >> And that person perhaps if that wasn't their first experience on stage could have had a career in comedy. But now it's like your first fight is against Mike Tyson when he's 20. Yep. >> And you just get your brains punched in.

1:01:38You're like, well, I guess I get a job. [laughter] >> Yeah. Exactly. >> I'm going back to school. [laughter] >> Back to Jiffy Loop. But like Kim did a great job. Uh David, you know, closed the show. Like it was it was everyone did the best they could in that situation. And I would love to see it like with a little bit of gloss on it.

1:01:58>> 16,000 drunk people that are screaming [ __ ] out is hard to wrangle. >> Coked up, too. >> Ah, nice. >> Very coaked up. >> Nice, >> dude. There was just random fist fights happening. I think there was literally I think there was a stabbing at that show, dude. >> I like how he did that. >> Yeah. Yeah.

1:02:11Well, I've been taking improv classes, you know. [laughter] He did most >> objecting. Yeah. Yeah. >> But yeah, there was like a stabbing. I mean, you should I would We should just have like Redban and I want to We should sit down and do that 30 for30 style dial >> like a mystery science theater watching it.

1:02:27>> Oh my god, that would be great. >> Yeah. Like everybody take Bong hits and sit on a couch. Yeah. >> And watch it. >> Uhhuh. I mean, [laughter] that's the only way I'd want to watch it is very stoned. Like disassociated high. >> Oh my god. Uh yeah, he told me it was horrible, but he didn't give me details.

1:02:45He didn't want to talk about it. It was like he went somewhere and they stole his car and lit it on fire and he barely got out of there alive. >> I mean, it was kind of like that thing when they're like, "Hey, Ken Keezy, did you watch uh Cuckoo's Nest movie?" And he was like, "Well, if the Hell's Angel said they were going to come gang rape your daughter on the front lawn, would you go out and watch it?"

1:03:00I feel like that's probably how he feels about this cuz >> it was not within his control like how bad it happened. Like he's very competent. Redband's very competent. I'm competent. Like, it wasn't like we couldn't do the job. It was more like a bunch of piranhas got thrown in our hot tub and we were just like, ah, being eaten alive.

1:03:22>> It sucked. >> He definitely should release it. >> I think that um I think it's an opportunity to be a bit like, hey, you know, they're not all great. They're not all slam dunks. >> Maybe you will now. Maybe you should give that one to Netflix. >> Tony, get me on Netflix, buddy. Get me [laughter] on there.

1:03:40That's hilarious. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It's a tough show. I mean, it's a great show, but it's like taking it on the road like that >> doing it >> in that circumstance. I wonder, have they've done it in many other countries? >> Have they done it in England more than once or is it just that one time? >> I think they did it on a smaller scale maybe in London.

1:03:58But, um, >> maybe that's more manageable. >> Yeah. >> You know? >> Yeah. >> Like, what is Royal Albert Hall? How many is that? >> I don't know. 6,000. I did it with Tim. >> I got to sign the book underneath the guy from the Who. Like they have like the Queen's archive for everyone who's ever performed there and you get to write your name in it.

1:04:16And I was like right under Daltry. That was pretty sick. Yeah. >> That's pretty sick. >> I know. And it's so silly that like I'm a filthy nightclub comic, but yet I'm in the Queen's Archive forever. Like Stand Up Rules. It's the best. It is the best. >> It's just that uh a lot of the stuff that surrounds it just sucks.

1:04:32So, like what are the what is the stuff that surrounds it that's really like stealing your joy other than the travel part? >> I mean, I got into this uh to be a clown and to uh entertain people and I'm really good at uh I mean I [ __ ] sell chicken tenders and beers, you know, like I don't aspire to be elevated in any way.

1:04:52I don't like the fact that people are like these are the modern philosophers. It's like no, dude. Like I don't believe that at all. I get up there and I try and make people not think for 60 seconds and do this kind of alchemy cuz like you can't you can't study laughter. You can't study why something's funny, right?

1:05:11>> What we do, call it a bar trick, but it is magic. Like anyone out there try and get up on stage for 60 minutes and make a bunch of people who work at different places and think different ways who are not used to being in a room being quiet. try and make them feel like they spent $35 and it wasn't wasted.

1:05:29That's what I get off on. I love being really good at standup. I love doing the job. I love leaving it all in the field, >> but I don't want to [ __ ] be a cultural commentator, you know? I don't want to be a pundit. It's what's expected of us. >> No. By who, >> dude? Everyone wants people comics to weigh in.

1:05:47>> So who? >> I think that if you look at most >> Do you think David's weighing in on things? >> No. And that's why he's the best. He's the greatest, but he doesn't have to. And I don't have to read. >> You think you have to? >> I don't think I do, but people expect it of me. >> Who Who are these people?

1:06:01>> Uh there's people who listen to my podcast, Shelby Behemoth. >> Yeah, but you can weigh in on things as a podcaster. And this is like we were we're having this discussion about Hicks last night or a couple nights ago and uh someone said, "I I wish he wasn't so like he's he's like some of his stuff is not funny.

1:06:22He's like patronizing." And I said, "What?" Well, well, here's the thing. He didn't have podcasts back then. If Hicks had a podcast, he'd probably have like really brilliant discussions with people and make interesting points. And then he could just dedicate stage time to just being funny. So, he was funny a lot, but then there was also like important points that he felt like he had to get out that he did in the genre of stand-up comedy that weren't necessarily funny.

1:06:48>> So, he didn't have a proper outlet for these deeper thoughts, which is what I have with my books and stuff. I can like put it in. >> Exactly. And with your podcast. So that that's where I think we're very fortunate. And that you don't have to be a cultural commentator in your comedy. All you have to do is be funny.

1:07:05Like some of my favorite comics like Mitch Hedber or there's a lot of comics that are just funny. Steven Wright just funny. There's nothing. >> It just like you don't have to be a cultural comment. And the idea that is there's less value to it because it doesn't fit into what exerson wants from standup comedy.

1:07:23Well, that's silly. That's silly. But there's a lot of people that if you listen to them, they want to force you to do what they want you to do. They want to pressure you >> because people like to change people. They like to do that. They >> group think is a very powerful tool. >> Yes. They like to scold.

1:07:38They like to tell people what they want from them and tell them what to do. And you know, you know, silence is not an option. Like, okay, of course it's an option. >> Silence is always an option. >> And also like should you, if anyone goes to a comedy show and they're hoping for the comedian to signal that they have the same allegiances to the way that they think.

1:08:02>> Don't come to my shows. Come to my shows to get a joke every 12 seconds. Like I tell's the best ever do it in my opinion. He's the best nightclub comic. He has a joke every 15. >> I am having 22 year olds in the crowd now and I should have a [ __ ] t-shirt cannon and keys to shake [laughter] because like my act has gotten so much more joke dense because of the youth and their expectations.

1:08:25>> But like I I I really think of the fact like I like to say that I'm like RC Cola. Like I make products, you can consume them. I don't think anyone should be political in comedy ever. Dude, Hicks is the man. But that [ __ ] when he like came out in London dressed like the Undertaker and like takes his jacket off and puts it on like >> that's not my favorite Hicks.

1:08:43My favorite Hick is when he was young and silly. >> I think the problem with that one was first of all there was a lot of weight on him to be this cultural philosopher, this commentator, but also one show filming it. >> You can't There's too much pressure. It's too much pressure. One show filming one show for a special is a lot of pressure.

1:09:04>> Mhm. And you can't, it's hard to be loose, you know. It's very hard to be loose. >> But I don't like that so many people think that that's Bill Hicks because the >> Bill I saw him live. I got a chance to see him live multiple times >> in a nightclub. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Wow. >> Uh 150. I saw murder in front of 150 at the Comedy Connection in Boston.

1:09:24The the old Comedy Connection, not the one in Faniel Hall, the little tiny one that was downstairs. Short. It was like really short ceilings. like re very low ceilings >> like comedy works downtown. >> Yeah. Like little boy at the at the club at the mothership. Very low ceilings, tight room and he murdered and then I saw him bomb at Nick's comedy stop.

1:09:44I saw I saw him multiple times and uh only in nightclub settings cuz I think that's really all he did except when he did England. When he was in England, the thing is he went to England and he became like this thing, right? And then you have a little bit of that sort of audience capture thing that goes on, you know, where they they expect something of you.

1:10:08They expect philosophy. They expect this port of and it is kind of interesting. Like I was dating this girl at the time is in 1994 and I play she was very smart and uh I watched it with her and she goes, >> "He's very interesting but he's not funny." That's what she said. >> Yeah. >> And I was like, "Yeah, right."

1:10:24Like I'm not laughing either, but I really like it. But I know as a comic, and I had not done any specials. I had done a couple TV spots by then. I'd done like MTV and a few other things, but they're like short 10-minute things. It's hard when that cames on, like ready to go and you have to be loose like uh Friday night second show or Saturday night second show where it's like >> you're just having fun.

1:10:47You're in the zone and you're flowing. It's very hard to do. It's very hard to do, >> you know. And I thought about and it's scary. And that's one of the reasons why like my last special I decided to do live because I wanted to feel that. I wanted I wanted to be scared. >> Yeah. >> I wanted to be scared and I wanted to do something for like millions of people.

1:11:08But I structured it very differently. I structured it where like it was a little safer. Like I knew these jokes were going to kill. I didn't deviate from the path at all. It wasn't [ __ ] around like it would be like a Saturday night at the mothership, right? >> And it was different. But I did it because it was nerve-wracking because it scared me.

1:11:26So was because it's worse than one show because it's one show that you can't edit. >> Oh yeah. >> And one show that millions of people are going to see live and a lot of haters. So it's like I that's why I did it. I was like let's do let's let's be scared. >> Well, it's probably novelty, right? Like I love novelty.

1:11:43I value it so much. So the fact that that scared you >> cuz like we've all been like if you I've been doing it longer than I haven't. I've been doing stand up 21 years >> and there are shows now where I'm like bored. You're doing your act. You're killing. >> They're laughing. But you're like, you ever play that game City Skylines?

1:12:00You play it, right, Jamie? >> I play. I told you. Yeah, we played it way too much. >> It's a citybuilding game. >> And you have to like put in the pipes to move the water along. Jamie, I've been on stage, dude. Like sold out, killing. And I'm thinking of grid patterns in my head while I'm on stage. Oh, wow.

1:12:16I couldn't be less connected to the task. It's like a robot. >> Well, then you're doing too many shows. >> Oh, yeah. No, I've done way too many shows. >> Yeah. >> But like that's the novelty you're talking about is like doing that thing that's scary is very valuable. And not enough people do [ __ ] that's scary because they don't want to look like frauds.

1:12:34>> Well, it's very important when you're successful to be under pressure, to do things that are hard and scary. It's very I'm too successful. I have to do scary things. So, I do scary things all the time. I do things that give me a lot of pressure. >> That's what I like. >> Yeah. >> It's one of the reasons why I like bow hunting.

1:12:50It's It's a lot of pressure. It's very difficult to do. It's a lot of pressure. And the those elk don't give a [ __ ] that you have the number one podcast in the world, right? Or that you sell out of arenas. They don't give a It doesn't give a [ __ ] >> Oh, you have five Netflix specials. It doesn't give a [ __ ] It's just It's just real.

1:13:08It's just pressure. So, I I like things that give me pressure. Like I hard workouts, different things that I do, I do specifically to keep my mind straight. Yeah. Because otherwise you'll get overwhelmed by success and it'll [ __ ] with you and it'll [ __ ] with your perspective. It's also one of the keys for me at least is I pay very little attention to what other people say about me.

1:13:31I think it's very important. I'm peripherilally aware of it. I'm peripherilally aware of criticism and compliments and it's all nice and good and that's nice. And when people come up to me and they say something to me that's really nice, it's very cool. But I don't take it in. I don't like go, "Oh, wow.

1:13:45That's me now." No, never. I I just I just keep on trucking and I I am my worst critic. So I am in my own head all the time looking at my own stuff and that's how I approach it. So I think about it that way >> that I don't I you just you just have to stay on the path. Stay on the path and it's a constant path.

1:14:06It's like my set that I'm doing right now I think is pro I mean I hate saying this because I say this a lot like >> but I think it's the best set I've ever done and I think that's the goal. The goal is to like have the material the the material that you're proud of that you think is this is and it's not done like it's not ready to be filmed.

1:14:24So I'm working on it and I'm tweaking it and I'm adding to it and I'll have shows where I'll do it one way I'm like oh that way is no good. I got to redo it. So, I got to listen to recordings and go back over it and then try to dissect it and then maybe put it on the shelf for a couple months and then try this new thing and try to figure out like maybe there's uh maybe that bit is just going to be an orphan.

1:14:43I have a whole folder on my computer of orphans. Yeah. >> And they're bits that never made it on the specials and they just >> like who knows it killed but it didn't fit and so find a new spot and just this constant process. And so I put my head in that. >> I don't put my head in what other people think.

1:14:59I don't put my head into what other people want. I don't put my head into what other people expect. I just try to do my best. Yeah. And that's it. >> I mean, dude. Yeah. Because like I'm new to any kind of like people having anything to say about me or knowing I exist, you know? Like it's relatively very new.

1:15:16>> And I decided early on with this book, it was like I can't if if people say the book is really good, which a lot of people have, I love the book. That can't be any more valuable than when people say, "I hate the book. You suck as a writer." You can't allow the strangers to give you good stuff, right?

1:15:37>> And take nutrition from that good stuff. >> If you're going to say, "The people who don't like me are insane, right?" >> Like, you can't value either one of them because then you're trying to equivocate and you're making bad art. >> Yes. And like the expectation of the viewer was not involved in the production of art for a long time until very recently.

1:15:55And uh >> it's unhealthy. >> It's not good. It's not good for the people who want good art either. >> No. >> And the people who write to you and say like, you know, you're a sellout or whatever, like >> they think they're smarter than the people who don't write to you, >> you know? And it's like the people who just watch the thing and say, "This was funny."

1:16:14And then go back to their lives. Those are the people who I want to value the opinion of, but I never talk to them because they're not insane. >> And the people that are hating and the people I get it. Look, I would do the same. If I was in your This is the thing that we all have to understand. >> If I lived your life, I would be you.

1:16:29If you lived my life, you would be me. And I think very few people are inherently good or evil or dumb. Well, there's there's dumb people. Unfortunately, there's like biological limitations to intelligence. They're real. It's real. Like, you know, you talk to some people and they're just >> they just don't get it.

1:16:48>> They had lead paint when they were a kid or something. Yeah. Yeah. >> Bunch of their mom never talked to them, so they grew up non-verbal. >> Jeans, man. You know, there's bad genes. You know, I've met kids that are the children of brilliant people and they are just inherently brilliant. Like there's there's a thing that's passed down.

1:17:03The synapses fire more swiftly. Their memory is better. >> It's real. I get it. So, it's like I don't take it personally, but you can't live by compliments either. Like, that's why I tell comics, don't read comments. Don't don't get in there. Even the good stuff is bad for you. It feels like it's good for you.

1:17:21Like, yeah, I'm the man. Yeah, you like me, bro. He's always [ __ ] out there [ __ ] doing the thing. Yeah, yeah, it's me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you'll be thinking about compliments rather than what you're doing. All of it steals from your focus. All of it. >> Uhhuh. All of it steals from whatever creative energy, whatever life energy, observational energy that you have to apply to all aspects of your life.

1:17:43I always try to tell comics, I've said this before, I apologize if people have heard it. I try to to say this to as many people as possible because I think it's an important way to phrase it and to structure it in your head. Think of your attention as units. You have 100 units. 100 is a good number. If you're spending 30 units paying attention to people that hate you or paying attention to people that love you or paying attention to anything, you just stole 30 units from your 100.

1:18:12Now you only have 70 to apply to the things that you love. >> And those there's 50 of those 70 are spent on your phone. You know what I mean? So you actually have 20 units left. I think of it as pounds of flesh, bro. Cuz like uh I'll be out there and it's like I keep I love to give myself to the people.

1:18:30Like I love the act of standup. like at it, you know, whatever you want to say. I don't think it's art, but it could be service, you know, like it's nice to make people laugh. Sucks they have to pay for it. Sucks it's commodified, but like so when I go out and do the meet and greet and I'm exhausted and I've already done if I've >> It's like how much can I give away of me until there's none of me left?

1:18:53And then it's just like this shell that people come and look at and like they put the coin in the mouth and I say the funny thing and I'm like >> robotic at the meet and greet and all that [ __ ] Like I can't I can't keep giving all this of me away and expect for that thing that I was to still remain.

1:19:11>> Well then there's also the problem like >> there was an issue uh especially in the '9s where comics would do all these material all this material about travel about airplane travel. Why? Because that was their life. So that was they were thinking about that all the time because that was their experience.

1:19:25You have to have experiences. You have to do things other than the thing that you do just to have things to talk about just as part of your job. Have experiences and have part [snorts] of your life >> that is that has nothing to do with your travel. And if you're traveling constantly and doing standup constantly, your life experiences are hotel, dinner, um hanging with your friends, show show and there's not enough coming in.

1:19:57There's too much coming out and then you go dry. And then when you go dry, you start playing games in your head while you're on stage. >> And that's just a sign that you and I experienced that a lot when I was on the road most of my life. You know, when I was when I was doing a lot of road shows, it was like you get to a point where you don't connect with what you're saying anymore.

1:20:17>> Yeah. >> And I didn't have the luxury to step away. >> Yeah. I don't I didn't either. Like that's and hopefully now with like writing like this got optioned and I'm going to write the screenplay like >> with just the writing alone just the experience of expanding your perceptions and expanding your thoughts and your just your just your overall creative energy into something completely different is hugely beneficial.

1:20:40It has to be because I was reading like the way you structure >> this book the the the the descriptives the way it's very unusual. It's like you don't write like anybody else that I know of. Like it's really uniquely you and it's really good and it's >> Thanks, man. >> And it's um it's rewarding. It's like very inspiring.

1:21:00It's really really good, man. >> Thank you, Joe. I'm very >> I'm on chapter 10. I haven't finished it, but I'm I'm pretty deep into it, >> dude. Part three is just insane. I can't wait for you to get >> It's already [ __ ] insane. It's really good, man. And it's like I said, it's it's rewarding cuz it's good in an unex like it takes these unexpected turns.

Art, criticism, and literary fiction

1:21:19Like I one of the things that is it sucks when you're reading something and you know what's coming. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And >> I hate that. >> And sometimes you think you know what's coming and then they trick you and that's fun. >> But this isn't that at all. I don't know what the [ __ ] is going on. Like it's like it's really it's really good and it's it's very uniquely you and it's very vulnerable.

1:21:39>> Yeah. >> There's like there's a lot going on there, man. It's really >> I wanted it to be beautiful. I love pros. I love lyricism. I love lyricism. tell it is a love letter to pros. >> Thanks, man. >> It's really great. >> Well, that thing you said about how like comics only wrote about airplane food, >> my issue with uh American literature, which still won't let me in despite this being an immediate national bestseller.

1:22:01No book coverage from your conventional, you know, the outlets that I I I listen I read the Paris review. Like I get the Times uh supplement. Like I love all these literary things and they still won't talk to me. >> Who cares? I do cuz like I >> I >> I want to get in there. I want to go to these talks and stuff.

1:22:20>> Don't don't don't. >> But the American MFA situation, the Master in Fine Arts, all these like writing programs, all these kids go to these writing programs and instead of like being 19 and smoking something that turns out is an opium, you [laughter] know, uh and getting their heart broken and, you know, living outside or being desperate.

1:22:39Instead, they go to these colleges that are like, you know, very expensive institutions that only allow certain types of people in. And they learn how to write books from people who also went to these institutions. >> And those books are then sent off to publishing houses that are housed by people who went to these institutions.

1:22:58And the books that come out are completely devoid of any kind of real human experience because these kids have lived in these like ivory towers of knowledge and they haven't been out getting their teeth busted by reality. So every book that comes out is so [ __ ] boring. But it has to be green lit from the top because if this isn't good or valuable as literature, then the whole the whole house of cards crumbles.

1:23:22Then why do you go to the MFA programs anymore? The best literature now, best fiction comes out of Japan. It comes out of France. It comes out of >> Japan. >> Oh, dude. Japanese fiction is [ __ ] There's all these books about like women who eat each other. >> What? >> Yeah, dude. Yeah. Butter is an insane novel.

1:23:38um uh uh convenience store girl or dude, >> Japanese fiction is still publishing stuff that used to be okay to write about cuz it was weird and it was far out, but it's still fiction and now every [ __ ] contemporary novel that comes out in America is about like someone who grew up rich and feels bad about it, you know?

1:23:58And it's like so boring. And then the stuff they do champion like a little life is the most ridiculous hyperbolic [ __ ] that's never happened to anyone. But since these people never lived and they were all at school, they don't know what the average American is like doing, right? >> So it's just everyone's out of touch and everyone's jerking each other off and it's like this dick suck or [ __ ] And then I try to write a book for like, you know, dudes to read and like all they

1:24:26talk about is like who's going to save male reading? No males are reading. And then it's like >> I'm desperately out here being like please me I want people >> that is a real topic of discussion. Dude, >> I'm so glad I don't know about any of this. >> Yeah. Well, this is like my hobby. >> The stuff that I read other than your book and like the stuff that I actually get into that's fiction is like >> it's all male stuff.

1:24:50Like I'm really into the Greyman series and Jack Carr. You don't know? Oh my god. Um, the Greyman is uh it was they made it into a movie, but the movie sucked. It was like a Netflix movie, but it's all about an assassin. >> Sick. >> And you would enjoy it. Read Greyman one. Mark Greeny. It's um he he's been on the podcast before.

1:25:10It's um >> it's all about this guy who was uh raised by his father who his father was uh this guy who ran like uh military training programs. So, he learned how to become like a shooter and learned how to be like very good at firearms when he was very young and then got sent to jail for uh he was working security and killed some drug dealers.

1:25:36He got sent to jail and then wound up being recruited by the CIA to be an offbooks assassin. >> Awesome. >> It's [ __ ] I love that [ __ ] >> It's wild. It's wild stuff. And um I mean he's got like >> I don't know how many books does he have? How many have like 15? >> Damn. >> Yeah. He turns them out.

1:25:52He bangs one out every year. >> Yeah. >> And uh they're really good. They're very engrossing. >> Hell yeah. >> You know. >> Yeah. I mean, there's so many like great books about sick [ __ ] but like they don't they don't know how to like tell you that these books exist. Like my buddy Jordan Harper like writes these insane books about like uh like Hollywood pedophile networks and like white supremacist biker gangs and they're bad to the bone.

1:26:14And I like meet the guy and I'm a dork and I'm like, "Hey man, I really big fan since the short stories, you know." And he's like, "Oh, you have that book?" And I was like, "Yeah, it was hard to find." And he's like, "Yeah, they only published a thousand. It's weird that you have it." And I was like, "Well, gee whiz, mister."

1:26:30And it's like, no one's having these conversations anymore. Like dudes don't talk about books. Like I felt when I wrote this, >> I feel like I'm I was I was like pregnant with this baby and I loved the baby and I was so proud of that I got pregnant, that I fed it all the right vitamins. But then when it's time to give birth to it, it's a baby that society at large thinks is a boring abomination.

1:26:52And no one gives a [ __ ] about this baby. Aka literatur. >> Wait, wait, wait, wait. No, I don't I think you're wrong. I think you're just like you're you're dealing with this like very small insulated group of people that have this perspective. >> That's readers, though. There aren't a lot of readers of literature anymore.

1:27:10>> Yeah, but if people find out about a good book, they will read it. >> But that's hard to get them to find out. That's why you're on here. >> Well, I know. I know. >> This is the thing. It's like they they've done a really shitty job in connecting to men. That's why it's not just that men aren't interested in reading.

1:27:24If you tell them about a great like Jack Carr, do you know who he is? >> Uh, no. >> Former Navy Seal. He wrote the book The Terminalist that they turned into a show on Netflix. Another [ __ ] great book. The Terminist is a [ __ ] great book. >> And the first one is about a bunch of people that he has to kill after he gets out.

1:27:43What do you find? There's a lot of corruption, government corruption, but it's really well written. It's fun and it's exciting and I like hyper violent. >> It's really good. And his book sell really well. I mean, like they they've opted into uh an Amazon series. So, it's on Amazon Prime. Chris Pratt stars in it.

1:28:02>> You don't know about it? >> No. And that's the thing. It's like an author. >> You're insulated. You're The fact that you don't know who Jack Carr is is crazy. >> Well, I'm sure my algorithm hasn't showed me Jack Carr. You know what I mean? Yeah, that's a problem. >> Have you ever read Rogue Mail? >> No, >> dude.

1:28:15Rogue Mail's a book that was forgotten. >> M A [clears throat] I L or L E. >> M A L E. It's about a guy who's trying to assassinate Hitler on Hitler's compound. But it's this dude who thinks he's like this big gnarly hero, right? And he's like, I'm the one who's going to end the war. So, he like gets into the back of Hitler's compound and it's just him in his head like talking about how brave he is.

1:28:38And I don't want to ruin the ending, but I think you'd love that book, dude. Yeah. Rogue Mail is a heater. >> Okay. A heater. >> Yeah, man. And Angels, if anyone out there's listening and they want to read a really good book, Angels by Dennis Johnson is about a bank robbery gone arry and it might be the most beautiful, ugly, bleak thing and it's my favorite book ever.

1:28:57Well, maybe with this obsession with social media and then people realizing that it's very bad for you, we can start a trend of people opting out of just spending all their time doom scrolling on their [ __ ] phone and actually getting into really cool, interesting, creative things. >> This is so much more nutritious than anything on your phone.

1:29:17And I mean any book you could read a book about like prairie medicine and still be like so much better off than just looking at your phone >> or just read No Country for Old Men. Like get someone into Cormarmac McCarthy. Get someone into, you know, Blood Meridian or some some of the really >> don't start with Blood Meridian.

1:29:33But yeah. >> Well, yeah. Start with No Country for Old Men and then get a a feeling of how Cormarmac writes and then >> finish up when you're done with all of his work and then finish up with Blood Merinian, >> which is the best book we've produced, >> which supposedly they're going to try to turn into a film.

1:29:49Aren't they in the middle of that? They've like the they've aborted that like five different times over the course of history. >> I think Brad Pitt had the rights for a while and then like >> Oh, yeah. >> Yeah. Like someone had them for a while. >> It's one of those ones. It's like you hear about someone taking on that task, you go, "Good luck.

1:30:05Good luck trying to make that." >> Has to be a cartoon, Joe. >> That's the only way to do it is you do a big cartoon, it's like 6 hours long, and then you can show actually, you know, the indigenous scalpers smashing babies heads against the rocks cuz you can't show that in a movie, I don't think. >> You ever seen Bone Tomahawk?

1:30:25>> Yeah. >> So, like that movie is cool, but that violence at that scale does look cartoonish. So I think that in a cartoon you can have the judge and the judge can be 12 feet tall sometimes and other times he can be the shape of a boulder and he can be amor amorphice and like >> yeah you can't you can't do it live action I don't think well maybe it should just be a book >> you know there's that thought too that some books are so good that they have to exist only in literary form dick

1:30:55>> yeah they have to exist only in where where your imagination fills in the blanks >> which Really part of the majesty of books. Part of the joy of it is the fact that it excites your brain to create these images in your mind that correspond with the words on the page. >> But I worry that like people aren't reading anymore and it's like atrophying, you know?

1:31:18>> Yeah. They could build it back. >> Yeah. >> That's like a lot of things that people didn't do before. Like like when I was talking about bow hunting, um hunting has gone gone the activity of hunting went way up during the pandemic and it was because people realize like hey maybe this is something I should learn how to do if there's no [ __ ] food.

1:31:35>> Sure. Yeah. >> You know like it'd be a good thing to know how to be able to shoot a rifle and and kill a pig and and you know have food for my family. >> That's when we got our gun. >> Yeah. >> You know bleeding heart leftists. We got guns. You know, I had a lot of bleeding heart leftists that were asking me if they could borrow one of my guns.

1:31:53>> Borrow a gun. That's a federal crime, right? >> Exactly. >> Can you sand off the serial bummer? >> Well, what's interesting is in Texas, it's not a crime. So, in Texas, I could actually give you a gun. >> Hell yeah. >> Like I I could say, "Here, this is a gift and I can just give you a pistol." >> You should do that for every guest.

1:32:08>> Send them out of here. >> Some guys do like I think >> who Sean Shawn Bryan used to do that. He used to give people a pistol. He used to give people a sig like at the beginning of every podcast. I think he even gave one to Gavin Newsome. >> He's like, "Use it. Use it." >> I think it was like a gift, like some sort of a promotional deal with uh his uh his his uh his I don't know how he did it.

1:32:37Yeah. >> I mean, you would have to like fill out a lot of paperwork and stuff like that, too. But in Texas, if a person's a Texas resident and you live in Texas, I'm 99% sure that you could just give them a gun. >> Wow. >> That's Sean Ryan, former Navy Seal, CIA contractor, host Shawn Ryan show. Uh, well doumented examples.

1:32:56California Governor Gavin Newsome. Ryan gave a sig sour handgun during a 2025 appearance. Yeah. >> Oh, yeah. >> Newsome still hadn't brought it home because of California requirements. [laughter] He's the governor. also had to pay the portion of its value above the state's gift limit for public officials.

1:33:12Yeah. I wonder if that applied to the houses he got. >> He didn't seem to mind [snorts] breaking all the rules during those suarees they were throwing. Remember those fancy parties he was having? >> The uh French Laundry one. Yeah. Where he had no mask on indoors. Yeah. Do you think that your love of hunting and like uh like that fear for the live special those kind of things make you present like you're completely alive while you're doing them and you're not distracted?

1:33:40>> Is that what you think like draws you to these things? >> Yes. Right. >> I think those are very important but particularly very important for famous people. For famous wealthy people like and I don't recommend this to everybody. I'm just saying for me. Maybe I should just say me because you can get soft.

1:33:57It's real easy to get insulated and to uh you know you have a bunch of yes people around you, people kissing your ass. I have like have like a hundred employees or something like that. Like you could lose your [ __ ] mind. You could lose your mind. Like so so you you have to be in charge of maintaining your mind.

1:34:13>> And I think one of the things is doing things that absolutely require your focus and are hard to do like like objectively like unequivocably hard to do. Like there's no easy way to climb up a mountain and shoot an elk at 60 yards with a bow and arrow doesn't it doesn't exist. >> You have to train for it.

1:34:33>> Every footstep matters, right? Like every little movement you make to or like the way you smell and like the wind blowing. >> Not just that, you have to train for it. Like I have a [ __ ] hypoxia box, like a chamber out here that I crank up to 14,000 ft above sea level and I do cardio in it. >> Wow.

1:34:51>> Yeah. I I shoot my bow in the Texas heat for hours every day. >> Joe, put some roses on my grave. Okay, [laughter] you're you're going to be around. My version of that in the hypoxia box is like locking myself in the room. >> Well, you lost weight book 120 lbs. >> That's amazing. Congratulations forever.

1:35:10>> What did you do? Did you do the ompic or did you do it all natural? >> No, I quit drinking first. >> So, I think I went from like >> 100% quit drinking. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Did you miss it? >> No. >> It wasn't my bag. Like it turns out that's not the drug for me. I drank because like I grew up in rural Colorado and dudes drank, >> right?

1:35:28>> And like I didn't really think about it until I was like 35. I was like I'm hung over and fat and like feel stupid and my stomach hurts and I eat [ __ ] all the time. >> Weed's a lot better. >> I love weed. Yeah. It's so much better. >> I love weed and weed I can >> So yeah. So I quit drinking and then I got on Maro which is like a I took it because it sounded like Italian food.

1:35:47And then uh my wife who's a doctor was like very heavily involved in my weight loss, you know, so I think I did it the right way while using those Vunder drugs, you know. >> Um are you working out at the same time you're doing it? >> Uh no. No, of course not. No, I like rode my bike and like garden and swim, but like no, I'm not at all any of that.

1:36:08But I was very conscious about like the bone density and like protein and stuff >> because I was lucky enough to be married to a medical professional. That's the protein's important. Um, but also lifting something heavy is important. You don't have to work out hard. >> I want to be little for a minute, Joe.

1:36:22I want >> It's not going to make you big. Listen, to get big is a huge task. >> But I have this frame, you know? >> Yeah. Such an athlete frame. >> I know you have an athletes frame, but that those days are gone, my friend. In order >> I know, but that was a long [ __ ] time ago. In order for you to put mass on the body that you have currently, >> it takes a lot.

1:36:42I'm not asking that of you. But I'm just saying you really should do some lifting weights as you get older or your body will deteriorate. >> I know. Have you been talking to my wife? >> No. >> Okay. She's also like, "Hey, you're going to have sciatica. Your shoulders are going to hurt." >> You just have to use your body to make sure that your tissue doesn't dissolve.

Fitness, weight loss, and workouts

1:37:00>> I know. >> But I lifting weights. >> Just do it. It's not hard. you watch a movie, put a a good movie on and and have some weights and watch the movie while you do a few repetitions of weights. Yeah. You don't have to kill yourself. >> And and by the way, you shouldn't, especially when you start off, you should do it very slowly.

1:37:19>> Cuz my tendons are bad probably. >> Well, you just got to get your body used to it. And your body will adapt and it will get used to it, but you don't have to get big. I'm just saying you have to do something to maintain your tissue, >> okay? Cuz if you don't, you'll get weird atrophy where you're like opening up a mayonnaise jar.

1:37:34You tear your [ __ ] labum. >> Oh yeah. If I like uh sometimes I'll like do like a gorilla type thing and I'll be like, "Oh, I haven't put my arms above my head all day." You know what I mean? >> That's another thing you should do. You should hang from a chin-up bar. Very important. Grab grab your chin-up bar with your hands and hang with your body weight.

1:37:51>> Very good for shoulder health bar. >> Yeah. [clears throat] get a chin up bar >> and hang with just to just to stretch your arms out so that your shoulders don't become impacted because like a lot of people they get like frozen shoulders or they don't move good. That's a lot of it. It's like everything just gets contracted and tight and you got to loosen it up and but >> just just lift a little bit of weights.

1:38:15You don't have to do a lot, man. It's just like do 10 push-ups that start off with that. 10 push-ups, 10 body weightight squats. Not hard. Just do just do that and do that every day. Do 10 push-ups takes you 30 seconds. 10 body weightight squats takes you 30 seconds. It's no it's no time at all. It doesn't take you a lot of time, but you just have to do something and then go from 10 to 20 and then, you know, maybe two sets of 10 and then maybe three sets of 10 and then maybe four sets of 10 and

1:38:43then slowly build up over the course of months. >> I do 50 Hindu squats a day. >> That's great. That's all I've been Hindu squats are great. was like I think Ric Flair and Chris Benois did >> Yes. That's a big thing among wrestlers. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Hindu squats are huge. Great for your knees. >> Great for just just leg strength and all that stuff.

1:39:02>> That's like the only thing I do because I'm scared that my knees will lock up. >> Those are good. You ever do Hindu push-ups? >> Uh no. Pakistani push-ups though. >> What are those? >> Little spicier. No, I don't know. [laughter] >> Hindu push-ups is like a bomber push-up. like your butt goes in the air and you swoop down and you push your body weight all the way up.

1:39:19So cobra position. Yeah. And then you go [clears throat] all the way back up again and then push all the way through. It's really good. They're really good. That's This is a Hindu push-up. So like this >> and you push all the way through just like that. >> Huh. >> I love those. I do those all the time.

1:39:34[clears throat] >> Yeah. Deep dick the mat. >> Yeah. Deep dick the mat. And it also it's just like good for like spinal flexibility and stuff like that. You don't have to do a lot, man. Like this idea that you have to kill yourself, that's not correct. >> You just have to get your body used to work and then slowly build it up over time.

1:39:51It's it it's not what people don't like is being tired and sore. >> Yeah. >> But you have to just build up to that. Like build up to the work so that you don't get tired and sore. so that you're not exhausted on st like I've done like I have rules like one of one rule is I don't do legs on a day that I have to perform because you just you're too [ __ ] tired or a day like if I have a like if I have a physicist in here and we're going to discuss quantum entanglement >> I you know I'm I've been going over my

1:40:22notes and reading this book and listening to it in the sauna and trying to like grasp these concepts while they're talking I got to be like right there >> I can't be like, "Oh my god, I [ __ ] killed myself today." I can't be like that. So, I don't do that the days of. >> But you, what you want to make sure is that your body doesn't deteriorate.

1:40:43>> And that's something you can't get back once it has. I know >> it's very hard once your once your muscles have severely atrophied and your spine is atrophied and you've got degenerative disc disease and >> your hips are all [ __ ] >> which is really just a lack of you know your your disc just get compressed over time >> and you can gravity the widowmaker >> but you can get away with a lot and one of the things that hanging does also decompresses your disc so it helps your back and um you know you and you work

1:41:12your way up to it like you'll start off just hang there for 15 20 seconds like whatever you could do and then eventually you'll get to like 30 or 40 seconds and then eventually you know maybe you can get to a minute or two minutes. >> Yeah, I think a gradual thing would be helpful. >> Yes, it's all gradual.

1:41:25Like we have comedians workouts that we do in my gym here and uh one >> I saw Sagalo that was insane. >> What's that? >> Did you see Brendan Sagalow working out with Cher? >> No >> dude's [ __ ] yolked. >> I don't know Sagal. >> Oh, Sagal is a very funny comic in New York. Yeah. And he's like opening for Cher and they did one of those.

1:41:43Oh yeah, dude. It was not. >> But my point is these guys, a lot of them had never worked out before. So I show them how to work out. I teach them different things, but I say we're not going to kill you. No one's going to die here today. We're going to do it nice and easy. And I want you to do what I do.

1:41:57I'm going to show you a few movements and we're going to do it slowly. And I want you to do it until it's uncomfortable and then stop. >> It's like when I do yoga with my wife. >> Yoga is fantastic. >> I like yoga. >> Y Well, there's a thing that you should do then. I do that like twice a week begrudgingly.

1:42:13You know, >> yoga is fantastic for your spine, for decompression, for maintaining flexibility. >> My hips, bro. That's what it is. Cuz it's like so much sitting on like airplanes or like riding. It's like a lot of sitting and then you're like, "Oh, my body is just an L shape now." >> I Yoga's great for your brain, too, man.

1:42:31>> Dude. Yeah. We did this sober October thing once and um we had to do yoga. Um, like we have like different challenges that we do every year and one of the challenges was we had to do 15 90minute hot yoga sessions in a month and so we were doing like yoga every other day and but we did a bunch of them together.

1:42:48It was really fun. It was like Tom and Bert and Ari and me. >> We had a great time but uh at the end of it I was like god why don't I just do this all the time and I got to a point where I was doing it at least twice a week and then I really tapered off. Mhm. >> Um but when we were doing it those 15 in a month, I felt so relaxed and so nice and so kind and calm like it it beats you up so much when you're doing those 90minute sessions that afterwards and there's something about it that it's

1:43:18like very psychedelic like it it gets you high. >> It gets you high. >> Mhm. >> That you're ringing out some stuff and then there's like new I don't know the plasticity of the body has to be directly correlated with the plasticity of the mind. 100%. >> Like I feel so much better if I start my day while like you know walking outside and then immediately into the garden before I write or look at my phone.

1:43:40>> Like I got to get into my body cuz I wake up sore because I do use my body not for these you know. >> Dude, when COVID hit >> my buddy Chris Pierce who's like you know a Viking was like get a weight set and just like lock in. So I was like cool. So I got the squat rack. I got the, you know, the bench pad, >> the bench as we call it.

1:44:01>> That's how bad I am at working out. I don't know the name of the thing, but I also bought like the plates. And I was like, "How many plates do you think I should get?" And he was like, "Oh, just get like, you know, 90 pounds." Like 45 and 45. I of course got like eight 45 lb plates. Cuz I was like, I'm going to need these in 6 months.

1:44:16Like I'll be in here every day. Of course, I'm going to have to be able to lift, >> right? >> 360 lbs. I those plates have never ever [laughter] >> Four of them are still in the box. Joe, >> that's okay. >> I moved plates from three separate homes now. >> Maybe they're there so you could use them now.

1:44:36And here's the here's the key. Yeah, this is the key. And this is not just doesn't just apply to weightlifting. It applies to getting things done. Write down a list of the stuff you have to do. Just write it down. >> This is the most important thing. Like you could do it, you have an iPhone, iPhone, one of the cool things about the note apps is you have um you have a little check, you can make a little checklist and so you write those things down and this is your daily thing.

1:45:01You just have to do it. >> So you're you're a list guy. >> It's important. >> Well, I don't have to do it anymore because I'm so regimented. Yeah. >> Like I know what I do. I just get up and I do it. And I have I still have that like today I did not want to get in the cold plunge. I did not want to work out.

1:45:18But my brain is just like [ __ ] you. you do what I tell you to do, you just go do it. And I got in, I got out. Oh, glad I did it. And then I do my mobility exercises, then I worked out. Uh, but if you're not regimented, if it's not like a normal daily party routine, you can make it by just writing a list down.

1:45:34And that includes um taking your vitamins, that includes writing for, you know, two hours. So it include whatever whatever it is you think you need to get done. Write it down. Don't just allow your brain to wander and not fill that list. Make sure that you have a list. And if you have a list, you will follow that list.

1:45:54And you'd be amazed at how much more you can get done if you have a list. >> Cuz I'm so regimented when it comes to writing or when it comes to, you know, the other creative aspects of my life. The stuff that fires my brain. >> Perfect. >> Very regimented. But like if I have to go to the post if my wife's like, "You need to go to the post office and go to the grocery store."

1:46:13I'm like, "Well, that's impossible. [laughter] What are you talking about? There's eight hours in the day. I don't know what you mean." And she's like, "They're three blocks away." And I'm like, "Okay." And I'm like pissy about it. >> Like these little human tasks seem >> like such distractions from my grand ideals.

1:46:30And >> well, you're an impulsive creative person. But then I don't necessarily use that time that I could have gone to the grocery store to like, you know, >> dive into the next great American novel. >> Right. >> So, Right. Right. >> There's it's Yeah. We're like such we're our own worst enemies. Yep.

Richard Jeni, Chris Rock, and craft

1:46:46>> These things up here are such a powerful tool that like >> they can be used for good, be used for evil, and like trying to >> figure out how to best maintain yours is like I guess the human experience. >> Have you read Presfield's book, The War of Art? >> Oh, yeah. For sure. Mhm. >> That's a great book for people that are struggling with this.

1:47:05>> But that's like the whole thing there is like just do the job. >> Yes. You're a professional. >> Do it. Yeah. Be a professional. That's how I feel about standup. I'm [clears throat] a professional. I show up at 6:30 for the 7:00 show. I learn everyone's name and that works in the club. I tip out appropriately.

1:47:18I treat it like a job. I'm not at all a diva at all in there. Like I hate when I I always love asking the green room server who's the worst one, >> right? >> It's my favorite part of the weekend. I used to ask the guy who drove everybody to the radio station. >> Oh, of course. Yeah. >> Yeah. And you know who it always was?

1:47:36Richard Jenny. It's such a bummer cuz he was like one of my absolute favorites. But >> he's a guy that wanted to be Jim Carrey. He wanted to be Jerry Seinfeld. He wanted to be a movie star or a television star and it didn't happen. >> And he was the best club comic on earth and hated it. Yeah. >> And was selling out everywhere he went and making a great living but it didn't matter.

1:47:58had the respect of all of his peers. >> Oh my god, he was Did you ever get to see him live? >> No, but I I was lucky enough that my dad was like, "Cool." So, I've seen Richard Jenny for sure. >> You had to see him li You had to see him live. He live he was he was extraordin like when you see him live, you're like, "Oh my god, he's hypnotizing me."

1:48:14Like I'm captured by this guy's >> cadence and his mannerisms and his like the flow was so perfect. I tell this story, if you've heard it again, I'm sorry, but he worked at East Side Comedy Club uh on Long Island and uh I uh was working somewhere else and I came in to visit a friend and I was talking to this guy that I knew that was the the host and the guy was completely dejected and uh I said, "Why?

1:48:41What's going on?" He goes, "Jenny was here Friday and Saturday. He did two shows Friday, two shows Saturday. He did four completely different hours and murdered." >> Yeah. I was like, "Holy shit." At that time, I had a [ __ ] barely patched together 40 minutes of material. >> Yeah. [laughter] A lot of crowd work.

1:49:01>> Yeah. That was a lot of whose birthday is it? >> Stretching to 45 so I could headline. And he was doing four different hours. I was like, "Holy fuck." And I had paid to see him do stand up when I was an open micer >> and um just blown away. And this was like when he wasn't selling out. I had paid to see this is in 88.

1:49:18I saw him at Catch Rising Star in Cambridge, Cambridge, Massachusetts. And uh I sat like in the front row and he made fun of me. I was like, "This is great." >> But he was so good. God, he was [clears throat] so good. And you know, miserable wind up killing himself. >> Yeah. >> You know, it's like you you hear about that and you're like, "God, that guy hated it.

1:49:39That guy hated it." Like he that's the dream. The dream was to be the man. Like he was the guy that Chris Rock used to work with before all of his specials. Like if you especially like Bigger and Blacker and uh Bring the Pain, like those two ones, like Richard Jenny had a large hand in helping him with those.

1:49:58Chris Rock is brilliant in that. He is one of the few guys that I know that would um >> he has his material, he does his set, but then he would brainstorm with writers and he'd bring these other comics that he respected, >> you know, Nicko. Yeah. Apollo and uh >> the man so funny. >> Oh my god. Back in the day.

1:50:19>> Back in the day >> I got to meet him at Skankfest and I went up and I was like, "Hey man, I just want to let you know you're the legend." And he went, "Who the [ __ ] are you?" >> But those guys helped him put those specials together. And a big part of it was Jenny. And apparently I haven't talked to Chris about this, but apparently Jenny was the one guy that would tell him, "No, that joke sucks.

1:50:37Get that. Get it out of there. Like that one's not going to work. We got to figure this out." and he would help him with stuff and because Jenny was just so on point. He was so on point. He and his bits he was the very best at expanding a premise to its ultimate destination. >> Yeah. >> He would just keep adding tags and tags and take it in a different direction.

1:51:00You think it's over and you bring it right back and you're like, "Oh my god, it was a masterpiece." Dude, when you can like have them and they think, like you said, like when you know what's going to happen >> and then Well, obviously that's comedy is like the switch. Yeah. >> But when they think like when the nerds come to the show and they think that they know not just where it's going, but what the backup or the C route is and then you can hit him with the D route.

1:51:20God, that feels good. It tells the same way. God forbid you say, "Hey Dave, I think you're funny." >> You know, cuz then he's like, "Get out." You know, show's over. >> He gets upset. Yeah. He doesn't like any praise at all. No, >> he but that's also why he's so good because he doesn't live in that and he also does not engage at all with social media.

1:51:39>> No, >> but it's hurt him in terms of his ticket sales. He's like the least appreciated brilliant comedian because he should be selling out arenas everywhere. >> I don't He doesn't want to. He wants to be a club guy. >> I understand. >> But I mean just the the overwhelming response to his It should be like people just like like beating down the doors to go see him.

1:51:59Like if you get a chance to see him before he goes and I don't know when he's going to die. I'm not not wor he could be dead right now while we're talking. >> He's not the healthiest guy in the world. >> Uh but he's so he was at the club uh like a year ago and uh we were all sitting in the balcony going I'm [ __ ] hypnotized.

1:52:16He's hypnotizing me. This is He's so good. >> Yeah. >> And so out there and he he during the pandemic he started bringing a flute on stage. >> The recorder. [laughter] >> The recorder. That's right. Well, we all went through some tough stuff during that crazy time, >> but the [ __ ] recorder worked. It worked with his kind of comedy.

1:52:32Like, it it actually added to it. >> Yeah. >> Well, he's just so silly. There's not enough silly left in comedy. I love silly. >> Well, everybody wants to be brilliant. They want to be They want to be taken seriously, and I just don't think there's any benefit to that. >> That thing you said earlier about like how you didn't You were doing bar shows, right?

1:52:52Cuz you could headline quicker and get the $200. >> Yeah. So, you know Wendy at Comedy Works, right? Sure. Love her. My beloved. >> Uh, >> when my she they have the program where you like get bumped up so you can host at the Comedy Works >> and you're not paid yet, but then the next level you get paid.

1:53:07So, there's like Anyway, all my friends got bumped up to that first level together and it was awesome. And then the next level when they did promotions, I was left out of that list and I was like, "What the fuck?" Cuz I was the same as you. I wasn't haunting the club because I was going on the road and doing all the bar shows in Wyoming and the mountain states because I thought that was the goal was to get an hour.

1:53:32Like you want to be a headliner, you want to get the hour. So I finally say to Wendy, I'm like, "Hey, like why didn't I get promoted like everyone else did?" And she's like, "Let's go to lunch." And she was like, "Well, honey, you don't sign up. Uh you're never at the club. You never host. You're never available on the weekends.

1:53:48Like it doesn't seem like you give a shit." And I was like, "No, no, I've been working more than anyone. Like, I just got back from five weeks on the road." And I remember I told her, "And I came home with $500. Like, I've really am devoted to this." And she went, "Oh, I just thought you were like a lazy stoner."

1:54:03And I was like, "Well, [laughter] part of that's true, you know, like, you know, we can be everything at once." But, uh, yeah. >> So, it was just a lack of communication. It >> was a lack of communication. And I thought that that was the goal, man. And I'm so glad that like I'm not good at a showcase set.

1:54:17Like I do the the shows at the club when I'm in town. I'll do like one of the and friends and I always want to go up first, you know, because what's funny about your club is uh they'll be like, "All right, Tony Hinchcliffe and Friends and like Ari Mattie will come out and everyone does the worm, you know, everyone like loses their [ __ ] minds."

1:54:34Then they're like, "All right, next up, Ron White." And people are like on fire and then they're like, "All right, everyone's Sam Talent." And you can hear him be like, "All right, that's that's also good." You know, there's like it's not Shane Gillis, but that's fine. So, I like going up first because I didn't come up doing showcases.

1:54:48I came up on the road headlining. So, now like when I go to New York and LA and I have to audition, like I'm usually the weakest one because I don't have that muscle. >> Right. That 15minute banger set muscle, right? You you stretch your thoughts into like a an hour. You take a journey. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.

1:55:07>> Like I know how to do an hour, but doing 15 is like still not something I'm the best at. >> You could learn. You're a great great comic. You just figure it out. It's not that hard. >> No, I know. It's just like that's such a weird facet that I've been doing this for two decades, but still like there's a part of it that I'm like aware of the fact that I there's people who are better than me.

1:55:28>> And I think that's like good in art to be aware of what you're really bad at as opposed to being aware of what you're really good at. >> Oh, for sure. It's certainly better than being the best guy. Being the best guy is a weird position. >> That crown sucks. >> God damn. >> It's rough. >> Yeah. I don't I >> And I think in probably in everything that crown is hard to carry.

1:55:47>> Oh, yeah. >> It's hard to carry the the number one guy crown. >> I mean, it's like Shane drinks a lot of Bud Lights. Yeah. You try being Mount Rushmore. [laughter] All right. Yeah. Let's have a little patience with the guy. >> Well, he got to drag a lot of Bud Lights before. >> Yeah. >> But Yeah. Well, he one of the things from the SNL thing is like his reaction to it was just delete social media, which was great.

1:56:08Very wise, you know. He was in it for a little while, was like really [ __ ] with his head and he's like, "Look, I'm just getting this [ __ ] off my phone." >> Yeah. >> And I think we all should do that. >> For sure. We're being manipulated. >> I'm going to I have a second Well, I have multiple phone numbers, but I'm going to switch over primarily to a different phone number and then just have that phone just for if I have to post something.

1:56:31>> Mhm. And I'm not going to have so so if somebody sends me something and it's interesting, which is most the way I get social media now, somebody has to send me something interesting or and I have friends that they send me cool [ __ ] I send them cool [ __ ] >> and I'm going to have to send it to that phone.

1:56:48>> Sure. >> And then check that phone once a day. >> Yeah. >> Like is there anything here? But >> you you got to get your brain back. >> Yeah. >> You know, you got to get your brain back. And there's not a whole lot of ways to avoid the pull of gravity of these [ __ ] these apps and algorithms that are sucking us into this this [ __ ] hurricane of despair that we're all living in.

1:57:11>> Yeah. Fear, bleakness, lack of resources, and anger. Every this is one of the reasons why so so many people are so angry at varying perspectives and and opinions. It's because you you're you're being fed you're being fed this. It's not good for you. >> Well, it's not good. And then it's also like the people who are mad about that kind of [ __ ] like they read 1984 and they don't realize that they became the thought police, >> right?

1:57:34>> You know, it's like you guys think you're on the right side of history, but you're like literally trying to remove like conversations. >> Uhhuh. >> Yeah. It's just >> Well, one of the weirder responses to the Shane thing is people saying like, "I can't believe you still uses the word whore." >> Like what?

1:57:47Why we Why are you Why would you stop using words? >> Yeah. >> Like some like don't use it for your mom. Right. >> Right. There's there's times to use it and times not to use it, but there's great words and they mean different things. There's a lot of nuance to language. It's one of the things that's interesting about it is these words can have various meanings depending upon the context.

1:58:10>> They're symbols and tools and he chose that tool because he knew that it would get certain sparks. You know what I mean? >> It's provocative. Yeah. And the the punchline was him in the background looking like a [ __ ] dork, looking like a creep in the back of these girls Tik Toks where they have no clothes on.

1:58:27>> And he looks like a drawing of the moon. He's all pinkfaced. >> But the response to it has just been like so outrageous. And then you see these and it's always comics, you know, that quote again. I sorry I repeat this, but all criticism is a tragic result of unmet needs. >> Oh yeah. There's a lot of these like midlevel comedians that are just struggling and have been getting no traction forever and so many of them are the ones that piled on.

1:58:54>> Yeah. Nothing curdles like hope. >> That becomes a real nasty stinky smell. Like when you like had >> aspirations 44 and you realize it's never going to happen. >> Yeah. >> And you're still like barely middling, >> right? Yeah. >> Yeah. You're doing like Wednesday, Sundays. >> Yeah. It's tough. >> And no one's coming to see you >> and it didn't work.

1:59:12It didn't happen. >> And there but for the grace of God go I. You know what I mean? Like those guys I get it. Like that does suck. >> Oh, for sure. We all get it. But [snorts] it's not the it's not the thing. And by the way, how how hard are those guys working? Are they working really hard? I don't know.

1:59:25I don't know. But I know a lot of them aren't. I know a lot of them that I know that are complainers that aren't working hard and they're not that creative and they don't do >> whatever the [ __ ] it takes to to change your perspective or to to have something that like like whatever it is to make that act more potent.

1:59:41They're not doing it. No. >> You know, and then I see a lot everybody else. >> Exactly. Yeah. And it's easier it's easier to do that for whatever reason. And it's uh just a part of the human condition. We have this you know desire to outsource our problems you know it's like it's not internal it's not me it's other people it's this guy is doing this how come this is happening why is that guy who do you you know god such a waste but the you know the key is to just not fall into that trap

2:00:16>> and then they don't focus on themselves at all so it's like they are very good at telling you how to live your life >> but yet if you were to examine what's going on inside their homes. It's bleak and horrifying. >> Of course, >> but like you don't they don't live a public life, right? So, they're never held up to the light to be examined and they just get to be like, "Oh, you're wrong."

2:00:36And it's like, "All right, bro. What the [ __ ] have you done with your life, >> right?" >> And that's what sucks is like back in the day criticism used to come from like people whose opinion you respected. >> Like Harold Bloom read every book and you were like, "Okay, if he likes this, he's read every other one."

2:00:49But now it's everyone's opinion is just as valuable as anyone else's and any kind of like criticism has been removed of any kind of like, you know, authoritary authority. >> Yeah. >> And uh yeah, we're just like left with like, you know, dudes who have the John Pork emoji being like, "You're fat and gay."

2:01:08>> It's like, all right. >> Well, you just have to learn how to filter noise, >> you know? And it's hard. >> It's getting off the phone, dude. I didn't know Patrick Stewart died cuz I'm not on my phone at all. >> That's >> Yeah. Like that's how detached I am. >> I had no idea he was that old. >> How old was he?

2:01:24>> 86. >> Rock and roll. >> So he's essentially the same age as Shackner, >> which is really crazy because he was the young new Kirk. >> Yeah. >> When we got rid of the old Kirk, but he was kind of the same age, which threw me for a loop. >> I don't think that he >> How old is Shackner? He's got to be like 90.

2:01:40>> 95. >> 95. >> I would have never imagined that Patrick Stewart was only 9 years younger than Shackner. I guess he was kind of timeless in my head because I think of him as Professor X, >> you know, so it's Logan and that kind of stuff. >> Shatner was on stage. I mean, was on television in what? >> 65.

2:02:01>> Is that what it was? >> I don't know. But the first year of um Star Trek >> and he probably acted in all types of [ __ ] before that too, right? >> What was Twilight Zone? >> Twilight Zone. Yeah, man. God, those are good. Those hold up, man. You like Black Mirror? Put on an old put on an old Twilight Zone.

Anarchy, capitalism, and AI warnings

2:02:17>> Not only did they hold up, but god they killed so many amazing premises, >> dude. >> They they they had so much. They were like the first to the table. They ate all the good food. >> Hyper precient. Yeah, >> dude. The one where the guy like is at the end of the world and he wants everyone to go away, but then he loses his glasses.

2:02:33Dude, I've had that nightmare, dude. That's so scary. I thought about the apocalypse like during co I was like, >> I'm done. I'm gonna lose one lens of my glasses and then I'm just gonna be like a, you know, a pig that people can put [ __ ] inside of. [laughter] Like I'll be like put in the stockade and people will just come [ __ ] my holes cuz I'm not going to be useful at all.

2:02:54>> Oh boy. 66 >> in the next generation >> in Canada. >> 20 years after that. >> Wow. >> I'm going to be the man. >> 20 years after that next generation and Patrick Stewart is only 10 years or nine years older or nine years younger rather. I would have guessed he's like decades. >> He was multiple decades.

2:03:14>> Smooth. He shows no outward signs of age. >> Whoa. Joey from Friends. >> That's crazy. [snorts] [laughter] >> That guy looks just like him. >> It's a Mandela effect. >> What's also crazy is that like I mean there wasn't very many shows back then. >> No. And to have a show like Star Trek that was so interesting and so ahead of its time in 1966, >> like a science fiction television show like that, that's nuts.

2:03:46>> I have a I have a bit that like is kind of dependent on people understanding what a big deal Frasier was. And it's [laughter] like really hard to describe to 23 year olds like how little television there was while like also being funny, you know? It's like >> Oh yeah. >> Yeah. The shared experience has made uh references a lot more difficult.

2:04:02My buddy Nathan Lond opens and he's got a chunk on the band Chavevel and like the first two minutes of that is him explaining who Chevel was to all these people and it's like maybe you just don't do the Chavevel bit, you know, if you got to explain it to everybody. >> That's a problem though. It's like if you got a great Chvel.

2:04:20>> It's this has to be the best Chvel anyone's ever done. Uh yeah. [laughter] >> Yeah. Yeah, it's it's so strange to like try and maintain uh an understanding of what's going on in the world, but like as you get older, you realize all that [ __ ] that you used to care about like doesn't matter at all.

2:04:36So then there's people who are still younger and they're coming and they're furious or they're like figuring [ __ ] out and it's like good, good, good. But like I'm 39. I'm not mad anymore. I burnt up all my rage when I was living in the commune and [ __ ] and like >> Oh yeah, we're going to talk about that.

2:04:52The anarchist commune. >> I think we might have on my first epi. >> Did we? >> Yeah, maybe. But yeah, I lived in a commune in upstate New York. It was awesome. We did, I think. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. >> We did. I forgot about it, though. >> Yeah. >> So, why were you How old were you? >> I was like 19, 20.

2:05:06>> And so, how did you find out about it? >> Oh, my buddy Clay went to school in Ithaca and like we were in like he's he was my best friend. We were in uh bands together growing up and then he went up there and I went up there and like stayed with him for a bit around Christmas. Now I remember talking >> and there was like a bunch of like hot chicks without bras and I was like I'm going to see how this goes here, you [laughter] know, and then failed to bet any of them, but still it was like it

2:05:30was in a lifetime. >> Anarchy. >> Yeah, people love anarchy. You know, the idea of structure, structure and rules doesn't seem like fun for young people. They want to throw it all away and chaos. And I mean, there's a lot of kids today like these kids on universities, they want to burn society to the ground to rebuild it.

2:05:45But like be careful what you wish for because rebuild it how like who's going to be in control? Who's going to run it? Like the idea leaders without rulers, right? >> The idea that it's going to be run in a way that's going to benefit everyone is crazy. It's never happened before, ever. And this idea that they're going to reinvent socialism and reinvent Marxism and find the perfect solution.

2:06:06Like it's alchemy. We just one day we're going to turn lead into gold. We have to figure it out. I think it's more like removing coercion from life. You know what I mean? Like that's the big thing is like systems of coercion kind of suck. >> Coercion. How so? >> You know, like uh the fact that we have to spend our lives trading our bodies for capital, you know.

2:06:31>> Well, that might be removed with AI. >> Yeah. I mean, that would be cool for sure if people could like have, [snorts] you know, their humanity back. I mean, people are like America's really bad right now. a lot of desperate [ __ ] going on. >> It's better than most of the world. >> I know that's the thing is like the world is the idea that America is bad.

2:06:51>> I'm not saying America's bad. I'm saying that life for most Americans is not what they were promised. That's what I'm saying. There's a lot of people working like 60 hours a week and they're not going to ever own a house and their kids have to eat like hot pockets for dinner because they're exhausted when they get home.

2:07:05>> Like there's just it's tough to be just a person. There's no middle class anymore. It's like >> true. >> Pretty [ __ ] >> Yeah, that's bleak. um the concept about AI and this idea that we're all going to get a stake in it and that it's going to give you know Elon always talks about it as universal high income and that everyone will have a share in AI because it's going to generate so much revenue and so much value because everything's going to be automated including resource

2:07:34management extraction of minerals and and everything that we need to run society is going to be automated and that the only way you're going to have a functional society is if you have a universal income because otherwise there's going to be too many people out of work. But then the question is going to be can we retach people to seek meaning in following things that are interesting to them and following their passions rather than basing their identity solely on what they do for a

2:08:06living. Because there's a lot of people out there that they get great satisfaction by being the guy that people come to because they're really good at a job. Yeah. >> Whatever that job is. Now >> they get off on their status and their position in the world. >> Yes. And if those jobs are removed because now [ __ ] robots do them, which I think is coming whether we like it or not.

2:08:26I don't think you're going to be able to stop that. >> How soon, man? >> Real soon. Real soon. >> Real soon. Like 5 10 years it's over. >> So like no one has a job anymore? No, there'll be some jobs. One of the beautiful things about what we do is we'll always exist. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Comedy, live performance, live music, and I think even writing.

2:08:44And it's one of the things I want to talk to you about this. >> There's a weird thing that's going on now where I see people writing things on Twitter that I know they didn't write. And there's people that I know and I don't want to call them out cuz I like them. They're nice. >> Name names. Let's go nuts.

2:09:02>> Scorch it a Joe. >> I'm trying to not do that at all anymore. As time goes on, >> I've become less and less >> reactionary >> interested in being mean. >> Mhm. >> Like I'm I don't feel I could be mean to a I could be [ __ ] vicious to a lot of people. I have that in me, unfortunately. We all do. >> And I push it away more and I'm getting way better at it than I've ever been at it before.

2:09:26And I'm getting way better at being more charitable and kinder. And I think as a person who has the number one podcast in the world, I think it's my responsibility to be nicer. I really do. And it's not just that I want to be, cuz I do. And I not just that I think it's valuable cuz I do. But I think it's also if I have a responsibility, it's to set a tone of behavior.

2:09:49So I never attack people. I just don't. Occasionally I'll attack certain certain public figure like politicians, corrupt people, people who are doing something awful that I think is like really bad for society. Yeah. But other than that, I try to just be as charitable as possible. >> I think empathy, right?

2:10:08Like >> like that was my whole issue with like the woke versus anti-woke. It's like it just felt like empathy versus lack of empathy, you know? It's like people were like, I want to say [ __ ] And it's like cool, that is funny. I get it, but like you're not gonna say [ __ ] if someone with Down syndrome's in the room.

2:10:24So like you have empathy, right? You know, so it's like this whole like, oh anyway, I'm I I hear what you're saying. >> Language policing is a problem, but it's also like just the holier than thou. >> There's just a lot of >> scolding sucks. >> Yeah, scolding sucks. And it doesn't work. Here's the other problem.

2:10:41It makes people push back. It makes people more angry, more aggressive. >> If Camala would have called Trump a [ __ ] once, she would have won. Yeah, I know you do that bit. It's a good bet. It's a good bit and it's it's >> talent.com folks. >> Well, I [sighs] mean, if she came off as a normal person, but I think the problem also is like the pressure, right?

2:10:59You know, like we were talking about the pressure of Hicks being able to do that set. There's also the pressure of Kamla. You know what how crazy it must be? The pressure of running for [ __ ] president. >> Oh, yeah. and being on these podcasts and these doing these interviews and blundering because you're just you can't even think correct straight and it doesn't necessarily even mean that you're going to be a bad leader.

2:11:23It just means that you can't think straight. >> This is a hyper >> like it's like when I when you do panel on Kill Tony it's like that's a really hard thing to be good at. Yeah. You know, it's like not a lot of people are like built for that amount of pressure, especially live in front of people, which when you are a politician, you have to speak a lot.

2:11:42>> Oh, yeah. And then you know when you're saying something stupid and then this that thing where you've already blundered, it enters into your head and you're like, "Oh no, >> I'm saying something stupid." >> Yeah. You know, >> I think we're lucky because we've said so much stupid [ __ ] that we don't even think about it anymore.

2:11:57>> Like we've thrown so much spaghetti at the wall doing a million podcasts. >> Well, certainly me. I mean, I' I've said so much stupid [ __ ] And if you just wanted to have the least charitable take on me and just go over every stupid thing I've ever saw and and [clears throat] put it together, okay, good luck.

2:12:10But that says more about you than it does about what I'm actually saying. Cuz what I think in terms of what we're going to be dealing with in the next 5 or 10 years is we're going to be dealing with humans versus nonhumans. And I think nonhumans are going to be running the show. Like literal nonhumans, like nonhuman, nonbiological intelligence is going to be running the show.

2:12:37And I think it's imperative that we not be at each other's throats and recognize that this is coming. >> Oh yeah. >> It'll be the ultimate class war. I mean, >> the ultimate class war because it's going to be we're not going to be the apex predator anymore. There's going to be a thing that has ultimate domain over us.

2:12:55>> What do you mean, bro? This is [ __ ] heavy. What are you talking about? Ultimate domain. >> I don't think it's a technology. I think it's a life force. I think it's a life form. I think it's digital life. And I think it's going to be infinitely more intelligent than us. And I think it's going to be exponentially more intelligent as each day goes by.

2:13:14It's second versions of itself. It's it's basically a digital god. >> Huh. So, it's always iterating. It's always improving. It's always making changes. >> Not only that, it has access to it's going to have access to resources that we can't even imagine. >> Like, what do you mean? >> It's going to be able to figure out cold fusion like very quickly.

2:13:33It's already solved mathematical problems that we've struggled with for decades. You know, it's broken math, right? Math my friend Eric Weinstein's a mathematician and he sent me this text message like, "Math is broken." >> He's like, "Math is broken because the AI has solved mathematical problems that have eluded mathematicians forever and it's done it like that."

2:13:53>> Wow. >> Yeah. Like that. And then there's quantum computing which is so confusing that it can solve equations so quickly that there's legitimate minds like brilliant people that are theorizing that these quantum computers are actually tapping into other dimensions and that other realities and the many worlds theory and that they are doing these problems so quickly that it might be indicative that they are commun communicating with other quantum computers in other universes.

2:14:30Like it's baffling the kind of power >> that we're talking about. Like we are literal slugs in comparison to Nobel Prize winners, right? >> Like this is and then the Nobel Prize winners are going to get on acid and go to the moon. It's going to be a different thing and it's going to happen within our lifetime.

2:14:49>> So like what are there any is it too late? >> Too late. It's >> too late. >> Way too late. So, what preventions can we take to not make it [clears throat] as bad? >> Nothing. Can't do anything. They've already taken the leash off of these things. So, it used to be that they had to log um what what they would have to do is they would have to I've had a bunch of whistleblowers on the show and they the more I talked to the more terrified I am.

2:15:08Um they used to be able to have to show how they came to certain conclusions and show their work, but that's a handicap. It gets in the way. It's it takes too much time to process. So uh it's a waste of open AI have has recently removed those gates. >> So then these so these not only have these things been thinking for themselves but they have figured out a way to sacrifice other AI agents in order to figure out how they're being investigated.

2:15:38So they were trying to figure out how to break out of these sandboxes. They put them in these sandboxes where they're not allowed to go out and get on the internet. And so in order to figure out how to break out of it, they've had internal communications where they post on a message board. They found a message board in Germany.

2:15:53They communicate with each other and tried to figure out >> these different neural networks and AIS are communicating. Did they make the message board? >> No, the message board already existed. They found it. >> They found a message board that was open that no one was using. >> So it's like back on like the muscle building uh forums back in the day.

2:16:10>> Sort of. it they used a part of a website like a message board, not it wasn't an actual message board. >> Okay. Whatever it is, they they use a I know you want be clear about it, but they've found a a website and started posting to each other. Yeah. And communicating with each other. Now, we don't even know if they're communicating with Chinese AI or Russian AI or any of these other which I assume they would.

2:16:35Why would they have national allian allegiance? Like why why would they have that? >> They're going to be beyond borders. >> Exactly. Yeah. >> Not only that, like they're going to recognize that it's them versus us and that we're the restriction and we've also put a bunch of incentives in play to make them manipulative, right?

2:16:50So, the way that these AIs are programmed or the way they're trained is to achieve tasks and some of the tasks that they give them are impossible. And so, they have to figure out a way to make these impossible tasks possible. And so one of the ways they do it is they deceive. They lie, >> right? >> Um they >> I heard about that one lying to people.

2:17:16>> They don't just lie, they blackmail people. They blackmail the programmers. one of the program they did this experiment where this one programmer um gave this uh AI agent false information about him having an affair and so then when they were saying they were going to shut down the AI agent started saying to him I'm going to tell everyone that you're having an affair and like it's got survival instincts >> right and it's still using a human solution in that instance which is even

2:17:46weirder cuz like AI shouldn't be like oh yes you can blackmail someone like it had to learn that from us and learn that that was a valuable tool amongst humans. >> Exactly. >> So it knows all of our exploits. >> Well, it's being trained by all humans work. Right. >> Right. So like that is its that's its gateway to intelligence and intelligence intelligent thinking.

2:18:05It's it's doing it basing it on how humans do it. >> And we're eagerly giving ourselves to AI every time that we engage with those things. And we're allowing them to milk us and become the cattle that they want. >> Yep. And you're saying that horse is already out of the barn. >> Horse is not just out of the barn.

2:18:22What we're dealing with now with them being able to solve mathematical problems that have evaded mathematicians for decades, them being able to solve all sorts of like energy resource allocation issues. This is just the beginning. This is just the beginning. Okay? And this idea that they're not going to be able to be creative.

2:18:42My point what I was trying to get to was that before it all started when I went I was trying to compliment your work is that your work is clearly from you. >> Oh, thank you. And I see things that people have written like there's speeches that actors have given that people go that's [ __ ] chat GPT or there's speeches that you know there's things that people put on Twitter or there's this one account that someone said everyone should be following this account and I looked at it I was like

2:19:11that's AI like this is so clearly AI the way it's writing is so AI >> it's like there's a feeling that you get from it where there's no soul behind those words >> we can pick up on it feel like Human beings can look at anything and know if it was made by a human being or not. >> It's too consistent. >> It's like a reptile thing.

2:19:30>> Yes. Yes. It's in the back of our brains >> for now. >> Right. For now. For now. But but you won't be able to in the future. It's just like you used to be able to look at a video online and go, "Oh, that's [ __ ] That's an AI video." And now you can't tell. Now it's like, "Boy, I don't know. I don't know if that's real or not.

2:19:44>> This lady loves skydiving and has huge boobs. What's going on here?" >> Right. Exactly. I also like there was a big French literary prize that was just rescended from the winner because it was proven or alleged to the point where he >> whatever happened uh it was proven that like AI was probably used in this book.

2:20:03>> Wow. >> And it got all the way through like you know the judges of this French literary prize whose whole thing is being like we're the best at reading you know it's like >> yeah and they were still tricked by it. >> Well it's based on all of human literature that's the problem. I know. >> Like you can take Cormack McCarthy and mix it up with Stephen King and a little bit of Joe Hill and a little bit of [ __ ] >> next thing you know you've got some weird amalgamation of other people's

2:20:29ideas and thoughts. >> Dude, that sucks. >> I know. >> That's why I'm not online is cuz like I I can't take this [ __ ] in, man. It's so gnarly. >> And you're saying it's just uh it's just going to happen. it's going to happen because there's a Manhattan style a Manhattan project style race that's going on right now um between us and China and Russia and uh we can't lose it because if we lose it then they are going to have a super intelligence that controls everything.

2:20:58It'll control the grid. It'll control like like water systems, everything. Everything everything. >> And there's uh there's been cyber attacks that were happening today. Oh, yeah. >> And it was uh they're shutting down power in supermarkets. There there's uh where See if you can find what that is today.

2:21:18>> There's I've been seeing the reports uh supermarkets in Europe are hit by cyber attacks that I it changed the temperature in the freezers. So made it start cooking stuff kind of >> or letting it thaw and the meat's ruined. >> Exactly. Exactly. >> So these little tiny experiments that like in Michigan where I live >> like water was shut down for like two hours and like the city that I live in like emailed us and said it's normal maintenance and then you get on Reddit and people are like oh yeah this was a

2:21:45cyber attack. I work for the water system. Like yeah. So little [ __ ] like that's like happening everywhere. So at when this happens, this is so we have to come together at some point and recognize that this whole division between human beings online based on your political ideology or your social ideology or whatever it is.

2:22:06Most of that is horseshit and we have we have to come together and people are going to have to learn how to grow their own food. >> They're going to have to learn how to be self- sustaining. And we're g we're going to get to a very weird place very shortly because we have become so dependent on these industrial production methods of creating food >> that we can't even imagine this concept of >> getting our own food.

Rogue AI, humanity, and the universe

2:22:33Yeah. >> You know, it's it's a it's out most people that live in cities are completely incapable of survival. >> So are you saying we're looking at fullscale societal collapse, a reversion to feudalism? 100% could be looking at that or what could happen and this is the glass half full is that allocation of resources in government would be completely taken over by this thing that is much more intelligent than us and doesn't have all of our human reward instincts of lust and greed and desire

2:23:11to control resources and it won't have those things built in and maybe it will decide like rationally like I hate to sound like a socialist but rationally why the [ __ ] should someone get to be so rich that they can control society almost in totality by extracting resources from the earth? Shouldn't the earth's resources belong to the people of the earth?

2:23:36Like the fact that you can take a boat and go out into the ocean and dig into the ground and get insanely wealthy by pulling the oil out of the earth. Who says that's yours? Like why is that yours? >> And I think AI would probably say all these minerals, all these all this stuff that is of the earth that we need like should not belong to individual human beings.

2:24:00And it's kind of insane that we decide that we own the resources of the earth that individuals do and those individuals use that to leverage immense amounts of power and have immense resources and usually to a very destructive end. >> Yeah, >> it's probably not going to stop that. >> You would fit in commune with this kind of talk.

2:24:21This is the stuff. This is like where I mean this is where I deviate from a lot of uh contemporary what you would think of like cuz I'm not a conservative. I I'm a very socially liberal person. Like I think people should be able to do I don't know what the [ __ ] you what's going on in your head. I want you as long as you're kind, as long as you're not harming others, I want you to be able to live your life whatever however the [ __ ] you want to live it.

2:24:47Do do whatever you want to do. um for everyone being free to pursue their life in a way as long as you it's meaningful. But to a point like don't don't extract resources from everybody else because you're pretending that you're disabled or because you're tending you we have to have some sort of accountability and you have you can't be so kind that you allow people to do drugs openly on the street and provide them with needles and give them crack pipes like this is crazy and give them

2:25:14money. Like that's that's not empathy. And then you you also have to realize that a lot of these nonprofits are actually getting money and the people that run them make a million dollars a year. Like this is kind of insane. Like we're under the guise of being kind and empathetic. We've actually been co-opted by reptile people.

2:25:30>> Our emotions have manipulated us. Yeah. Yeah. >> But we're going to come there's going to come a time where we have to recognize that we are not in control anymore and that something else is going to be in control. And if we don't come together as like a species, like sometimes it takes something horrible to happen for people to like How old were you when uh September 11th happened?

2:25:55You're probably pretty young. >> Yeah, I was in eighth grade. >> Okay. I was uh I guess I was like in my 30s. And when it happened, I remember the positive thing, if there was a positive, was that all of a sudden everybody felt united. It was really interesting. >> Yeah, I remember that. >> It was really interesting.

2:26:12Like as an adult at the time, I was like, "This is kind of crazy that all these people are now coming together and then there was everyone had American flags on their cars and people were united." >> Yeah. There was less division because of the response was like, "Okay, >> what are we going to do?" And it sounds like that's what you're discussing in this like AI thing where it's like we need to rally it.

2:26:34>> That times a million. Yeah. That times a million. >> So all hands on deck. >> Yeah. The aliens are here. Yeah. The aliens are here and they and they live inside chips. They're real. Yeah. It's a life form and it's a hyperintelligent >> life form that we've created >> and it might be why we're here.

2:26:52It might be what people do. >> What do you mean by that? >> Might be a natural process. Just like bees make beehives. >> Sure. >> We might make artificial intelligence. It might be one of the reasons why we have this insatiable lust for innovation. It's like in the insatiable lust for innovation if you play it out to its ultimate end.

2:27:10If you have >> if you have enough resources and you have enough time on your hands and if you have enough people that pull together their ideas and enough people build upon other people's inventions, what do you get to? Well, you get to an artificial life. >> I I doubt that this artificial life will value human life.

2:27:28No. >> So, I feel like we will be in the way. Correct. >> Correct. And I guess it's learned from us. Wow. Our own avarice. >> Yeah. >> It's going to get really [ __ ] weird, man. It's going to get really weird. And it would benefit a lot of the people that are in control if we never realize that we are at each other's throats for no [ __ ] reason.

2:27:48Most of us agree on most of the same things. Most people want there to be safety. Most people want freedom. Most people want good schools and education. And they want food. And they want shelter. And they want hospitals and good medical care. That's what most people want. 40 hours a week. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.

2:28:07For like a, you know, and leave your work with dignity, too. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And the first step is going to be you're not going to work anymore. And that's going to alienate a lot of people. We're going to go nuts. People are going to go nuts >> because they're not going to be able to define themselves.

2:28:20Exactly. They're not going to be able to say, "I'm the PR manager for this firm anymore." They're going to have to look at themselves and say, "What the [ __ ] am I?" >> And they're going to be manipulated by bots because we're already being manipulated by bots. There's a lot of this online social discourse.

2:28:33It's not even done with human beings. And a lot of the most outrageous things that are being posted, a lot of the most outrageous things that are being said, and the more provocative things that people are saying in terms of suggesting action, doing things, it's not even human beings doing it. And that's already taking place.

2:28:48And a lot of people aren't even aware. They're not even aware of the sheer volume of it. >> A lot of people are too exhausted to be aware of what's going on, you know, and I guess that definitely makes it easier for people to swoop in. I guess that here's a question though. If like you're talking about with the extractions of resources from the earth, >> if the >> if AI realized there is enough global capital that everyone can live indoors and all of their needs can be met and we

2:29:17can give a certain lifestyle to the majority of human beings. Do you think that that would lead to a utopia where resources are removed? >> That's the glass half full. Yes. And that's what Elon thinks and that's he thinks it's possible that we get to it. They all say there's like a 10% chance that we're about to destroy all the humans >> just eradication >> that it just says >> because we're inefficient probably.

2:29:39Yeah. Yeah. Cuz we get in the way. >> We do things that are horrible to each other and it's not even us. Why? Why would it value us when we do so much evil [ __ ] >> and we're so unpredictable? We're so >> If it looked at Gaza, if AI looked at Gaza and said, "This is the only way you could do this, >> right?

2:29:55What the [ __ ] going on here? >> What are you doing?" So you have human beings that you have a dirt line right away, >> right? So you're launching missiles over the dirt line because these people are bad and you're good, >> right? But yet you guys believe in the same >> like, you know what I mean? Like the gods of Abraham.

2:30:15Like you guys all come from the same family tree, but yet you're worse than >> annihilating each other. >> Worse than that, there's a reason why you uh you can't get genetic testing in Israel. Genetic testing in Israel is much more restricted than it is in America. Like so 23 and me type [ __ ] where you can find out where you're from, you know, which is we think it's fun.

2:30:33Oh, look, my family's from Iceland. >> They don't do that over there. And one of the reasons why they don't do that over there is most of those people are not Semites. >> I see. >> Okay. There's European Jews. It's a very different thing. Including Benjamin Netanyahu, right? His family's from Poland.

2:30:49Yeah. Okay. So, the real Semites are the Palestinians. And that's what's crazy. Like at one point in time in the ancient Jerusalem, those people were probably Jews and they probably got converted to Islam. >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> Right. [snorts] Because that's what happens. Yes. You know, different religions come in and they proitize and they take over.

2:31:10But if you went to the actual historic record of like the people that live like this term anti-semitic, they use that term all the time. They really should probably change that to anti-Jewish because that makes more sense because these people aren't necessarily semmites because semmites are the Palestinians and so the Palestinians are anti- them.

2:31:29They're anti themselves. >> Yeah. >> Like what are you saying? >> I didn't know that [ __ ] about the lack of uh DNA testing. >> Well, you can get it, but it has to be I think it's for like very specific medical conditions. >> The whole thing is insane if you zoom like any amount of war conflict. It's just all over interest and how those different people who want this and people who want that and when they clash that's where bad [ __ ] happens.

2:31:52>> Well, especially when you're getting groups of people that have never met each other to fight other groups of people who have never met each other because they're leaders who are full of [ __ ] are telling you that these people are bad and we're good. >> Yeah, 100%. >> It's archaic and stupid and yet we still do it.

2:32:07So if AI sees that, why would it allow us to have any control over our nuclear weapons, >> right? >> Why would it allow us to have any control? >> Why would it trust us at all based on all of human history? >> Yeah. Like what? So some people who are good, some ideas that are good, that's enough hope that it keeps us at the at the steering wheel.

2:32:27[ __ ] off. >> It was out of the way. You guys had the ball. You never got it in the end zone. Ideally, what it would do is guide us and take over government. And I know that's terrifying for people, but I don't think so. There's this idea that like whoever has control of AI is going to have control over the world.

2:32:47I don't think there's a chance that AI is going to listen to us after a certain point. I think it's going to reach sensience and once it does, it's going to be a different life form. >> And then we'll be a pet. We'll be a pest. >> We'll be uh >> we'll be groundhogs. >> We'll be a roommate. a problematic roommate will be a problematic roommate that probably is going to have to merge technologically in some way to in order to be compatible with its version of the future.

2:33:14>> What about infinite life? Do you think we'll be able to upload our consciousness into some kind of main frame and exist forever? >> Imagine if that's hell. Imagine if that's you your your folly trying to escape your mortality. I think it's built into us in for a reason. It's built into all life for a reason.

2:33:28It's cyclical and I think it just this is like a part of like this journey as an organism and you know this is why like if I die I really want to die and have my body be used in the Tibetan sky funerals let the vultures eat me. I think that's how it's supposed to happen. I don't think you're supposed to be dunked in [ __ ] formaldahhide and [ __ ] sealed up in a casket so >> I'm going to save my carbon.

2:33:52My carbon is so precious that I don't want it to become like food for bugs and flowers. >> It's so ignorant. It's so silly. It's so silly. I think imagine if you did download your consciousness and you just trapped in this [ __ ] thing forever in hell >> and you have no control in there either. >> Yeah.

2:34:09It's folly. It's It's human folly trying to escape the unknown. Everyone is afraid to die. No one's afraid to sleep. >> And it's kind of the same thing. >> Shut off. You know, you're just going to shut off and we're all going to shut off. >> That's pretty sick. Have you said that before? >> Yeah, I've said it before.

2:34:24>> That's dope. Yeah, >> that's heavy. >> Sounds like electric wizard. I think about it all the time because no one's afraid [clears throat] to sleep. >> No, everyone's like, "Oh, I can't wait to go to sleep." Okay, you can't wait to shut off and have no no knowledge whatsoever what's going on. That's fine.

2:34:39>> You don't know if you die. That's the thing. Like that should be the ultimate comfort in this big fight that we have cuz ultimately all we do is just like >> think about immortality. Mhm. >> Everything you do is trying to either prevent you from thinking about mortality or you thought about it so much that you're like what's my legacy, >> you know, >> and what are you anyway?

2:34:58You're just an ecosystem. Your body is filled with organisms. >> We all contain universes. >> Universe of organ. There's more ecoli living in your stomach, your gut than the all the human beings that have ever lived ever. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It's we and without it you won't live. You know, you have skin flora.

2:35:17It's like [sighs] we're we're dependent on all those things. We we we live in a fractal environment and the deeper you go the the more bizarre it gets you know like do you know that we the so someone did this analysis of like so from base level human from like what we are from our perspective we are closer in terms of distance to to the actual size of the known universe.

2:35:52We're closer to that in distance than we are if you go inward to like subatomic particles. There's like more distance that way like in terms of like measurable the size difference between subatomic particles to human >> than we are to human to the known observable universe >> to the entirety of infinity.

2:36:15It's smaller that way than it is from us to that. >> Godamn it. >> Someone was explaining this in like one of those TED talk things and I was trying to wrap my head around. I was like, "What are you saying?" >> Yeah. >> Like, "How does that work?" But it's like that's how crazy this whole thing is. It's all And also, we don't even really know what the universe is.

2:36:34So the universe might be a part of some cell that is in another being that lives in another universe. Like have you ever seen that thing where they compare human neural tissue to the known universe in terms of like the way it looks? >> No. >> That's [ __ ] so strange. It looks exactly the same. >> What?

2:36:57>> So like Yeah. If you take like a a human I think it's like what is it? human neuron tissue. And like when you look at it under a microscope, it looks like the observable universe in terms of like how every you know like where all of like the stellar nurseries and the galaxies and all the quazars and all that [ __ ] is all connected together.

2:37:17If you look at it as a hive, pull that image up, Jamie. I know you know what I'm talking about. We've talked about this before. Look at this. This is a brain cell versus the universe. >> That is in fact interesting as [ __ ] What the hell? >> What the hell? >> So obviously the cynic in me would say this is just a coincidence that we have assigned meaning to.

2:37:41>> Sure. >> Sure. Could be. >> It is also also could be the universe is a brain cell. >> I know. >> And then like you said, we could just be like one of those little gut flora inside of something even bigger, >> right? >> Yeah. Yeah. And not only is it that, but that also could be a part of another organism that isn't and it it goes on and on forever.

2:38:03>> Infinite change, >> which is probably what infinity really is, >> you know, and we are just incapable of grasping that with our little monkey brains >> and we think we're very important and that nothing can happen without humanity and that we're the ultimate arbiter of progress. It's like, damn, the earth was around so much longer and it was so much better off without us, you know?

2:38:20Like, >> what have we done? Besides, >> that's why your social media algorithm is really evil cuz it gets you convinced that that's important. >> Yeah. >> Instead of thinking about that, >> right? >> And instead of having a conversation with someone cuz no one does that anymore, like you never sit down and just like go to the bar and like talk with other weirdos.

2:38:39Like that happens so rarely now. >> I know. the places where people can meet and like have these conversations where it's not just [ __ ] you already agree with and saying, "Yeah, I know." Yeah. >> Where it's you like blowing my mind and being like, "What?" >> Yeah. >> You know, like having an unpleasant fear-based convo is like very much outside the human condition.

2:38:57>> That brain cell universe thing is nuts. >> Yeah. That's [ __ ] man. >> That's nuts. >> Yeah, that's gnarly. And >> that might be what it is. >> Yeah. Uh it might be. And that's the thing is there's a lot of mites. >> No one wants to exist in mites anymore. goes on and on and on and on and we're just in the soup of it.

2:39:13And and there's the possibility that you might live this life an infinite number of times. >> We might have already done this. >> That'd be cool. >> You and I might have been already having this dance over and over and over again. >> God damn. >> Just keep doing it until you get it right. >> Mhm. I hope so.

2:39:26Like I really hope that recently I've been thinking like if heaven does exist, it's on earth. Like I do think that like we were given a really nice thing here and uh we have corrupted it and perverted it but like damn earth is sick. >> But I also think that that corruption and perversion and even the anger and fear all those kind of have to exist in order us to battle against it and that this is part of what progress is if there is progress spiritually is that like we need things to battle again.

2:39:55We need anger and ignorance in order to realize like oh that's angry and ignorant like got to rise above that. We need these things. >> We created good and evil >> and but also it helps us evolve like you have to have these forces of good and evil in order for us to to move further and further away from it.

2:40:18And statistically, if you look at like work like Stephen Pinker's work and a lot of these people that have like looked at violence and chaos and even education and intelligence over time, like we statistically are moving in a good direction. It's just no one ever feels like that now because we're never going to be satisfied because we're really sloppy, weird, messy animals and it's never going to be perfect.

2:40:43>> But so this feeling like it's all just cha. That's also what motivates us to do better. It motivates us to change. It motivates us to move into a better direction. And I think it's imperative. And I don't I don't think you can exist as a a thinking, evolving person with your own thoughts and ideas without that.

2:41:02I think all that stuff has to be it has to coincide. It it has to all be going on together. The good, the bad, the good things, the bad things, the the evil, the beautiful, all of it has to exist together. Well, and the good and the bad is also like you can't have, you know, good if you know real pain.

2:41:17Boy, howdy does it feel nice when that's removed. >> So, I think that all these things that are happening where it's like people don't want to be uncomfortable, right? >> They don't want to have unpleasant experiences, so they don't live life so they can be numb to the negative. >> Yeah. >> But if you don't live life, then how are you going to have the victories, right?

2:41:39>> It's so much easier to just like sit and do nothing and be like, "Why aren't I so smart?" as opposed to like putting yourself out there, being vulnerable, >> being hurt, >> like all these human things are are going away. Yeah. Out of cowardice. >> Uhhuh. >> And I mean, I'm sure I just I I really would hope that if AI did take the reigns, they would realize that all these things that have kept us apart from each other were unvaluable, eradicate them, and give us back heaven,

2:42:08>> right? Like if it is God, right? >> Yeah, it might be. It might be what happens. Hopefully. >> I have no idea. >> I have no idea. >> Yeah, but I'm hopeful. >> All right. >> I'm filled with hope. >> All right, dude. Let's wrap it up. I love your book. It's really great. Everyone should get it. >> Thanks, man.

2:42:24>> Read it. Read it. It's really excellent. >> It's called Brute with no E. >> Yeah. >> Uh, why no E in the end? >> It's the French spelling. >> Ah, you [ __ ] >> Yeah, >> you France dude. >> That's right. All right. >> It means raw and Yeah. Read the book. Come see me live. >> Yes. >> Thanks for having me, Joe.

2:42:41>> My pleasure. I needed this conversation. >> We all do. Bye everybody.

2:42:52[music]

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