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Transcript · The Joe Rogan Experience
Joe Rogan Experience #2574 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
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Joe Rogan talks with Francis Foster and Konstantin Kisin about political misinformation and bot-amplified outrage on social media, climate and energy policy, religion and secularism, urban life, immigration and the Iran conflict, and the future of work under AI. Their broad conclusion is that outrage and incentives distort public debate, that people need meaning and purpose beyond comfort or income, and that finding shared humanity matters more than partisan division.
- Rogan and guests argue that social media is flooded with fake stories, AI images, and bot amplification, which can make people believe a narrative is popular and distort political opinions.
- They claim outrage drives engagement and monetization, so influencers and accounts are incentivized to post provocative takes rather than truth.
- Kisin argues UK climate policy is costly while Britain produces about 1% of global carbon emissions, and that energy prices harm people such as pensioners in winter.
- The guests suggest secular societies may lack moral structure, and that progressive activism can function like a religion, with dissenters treated as heretics.
- They discuss evidence that urban life and light pollution harm wellbeing, while nature and community improve it.
- On immigration, they claim the Biden-era border was open, that migrants were bused and resettled, and that census counts can affect congressional seats.
- They argue the US-Iran conflict was a miscalculation that raised global energy prices and gave Iran leverage, and that the UK has only about two months of diesel supply.
- Joe and his guests debate universal basic income in the AI era, concluding that people need purpose, skill-building, and meaningful activity beyond money.
- Stories like Danny Drinkwater's and Eddie Izzard's illustrate that failure and persistence build humility, gratitude, and self-discovery.
- The episode closes with the hope that shared human stories, such as the Odyssey, show people have more in common than their divisions suggest.
- 0:01Brazil election and misinformation
- 4:46Outrage, bots, and engagement
- 9:27Climate, heat deaths, and energy
- 17:08Carbon emissions and green profiteering
- 22:12Religion, secularism, and progressivism
- 26:32Polls, religion, and cannabis
- 31:35Alcohol, supplements, and health
- 36:42Cities, nature, and wellbeing
- 42:26Media pressure and political ads
- 49:03Immigration, the border, and census
- 56:30Corporate greed and moral responsibility
- 1:00:01Attention, podcasts, and child stars
- 1:11:46King Tut, ancient history, and Genghis Khan
- 1:28:20Iran war, oil, and escalation
- 1:51:40Protests, revolutions, and social discontent
- 2:12:29AI, universal income, and purpose
- 2:24:15Failure, persistence, and shared humanity
Brazil election and misinformation
0:01Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. >> The Joe Rogan Experience. >> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY NIGHT. All day. >> Always good to see you guys. Um, I haven't talked to anybody about this, so I'd like to talk to you guys about this. Do you know what the [ __ ] is going on in Brazil? >> No, not not not intimately.
0:22>> Not specifically. Not specifically, but the the Flav Balsinaro, who is the son of the guy Jay Balssonaro, >> right? >> He was one of the candidates in the election and then the moment the election finished, they took his passport away and I think he's ended up fleeing to the US now. Is that right?
0:43>> I don't know. I've heard that he fled, but I don't know if there's any evidence. >> Yeah. >> I mean, that's just like Twitter talk. >> Yeah. But that's but first of all, just taking his passport right away is kind of crazy. >> And I think they did warn him as well. They said uh the the Lula said if I'm elected, you know, it was kind of like you're going to be in jail when Trump said it to Hillary, but they followed through.
1:07>> But what was the what are the charges? Like what are they u >> I don't know the details of it, Joe. >> But the whole thing was So it was someone that was his Lula's former defense attorney. He elected to the Supreme Court of Brazil and then that person opened up the polls for an additional two hours and that allowed Lula to win.
1:27Is that accurate? >> I think so. Yeah, that bit I think is is that's what I saw. But this is the thing is like you have to really do a lot of research now to even know the basic facts of anything. So if you see something on X or Facebook or whatever, >> I I I am hesitant to believe it now off the top.
1:44Do you know what I mean? >> 100%. I I read stories all day that I know are fake immediately >> and it's like breaking and then you read the thing all caps you read you're like oh this a fake story and there's a lot of them they're all they're all over the place and I think they've done something where you don't get monetized for those so you can't make money off of them so there's less of an incentive but if the goal is just propaganda then they don't care about the money like if these are if this is a country
2:15or a government that's involved in doing this or someone you know with a vested interest in [ __ ] up American politics or Brazilian politics or whatever. You just who cares if we're making money. What we want to do is [ __ ] up the waters. We want to muddy up the waters so nobody knows what the [ __ ] is real.
2:35>> Um if there's, you know, people that are voting, we want them to be completely confused or lied to where they have a totally incorrect narrative of what's going on. And you see so much of it and you don't know like I feel like maybe when there's a fact check like like a Grock fact check and it proves to be absolutely incorrect.
2:56Maybe they should like just take it down >> so that you don't have to go into the thread cuz I'll go into the thre. I'll read something like that's fake and I'll go into the thread. I'm like where where does someone ask Grock? And someone asks Grock and it says no this is not correct. And then Grock lays it out, maybe then they should take it down, >> right?
3:16Because you just there's it's just your timeline's just flooded >> by straight horseshit, completely made up stories about, you know, people being arrested and you'll have AI photos of someone handcuffed. It's crazy. >> It's really crazy. >> And then amplified by bots or foreign foreign actors as well.
3:36I mean, that's that's one of the interesting areas where I think there's probably a solution, which is kind of like digital border enforcement, where you actually know that people are commenting on this and where they're commenting from, >> right? >> Because I think most people get their political opinions from other people.
3:52They don't necessarily have a they don't sit down for 3 hours and think about this stuff. They just go, >> "This seems to be what everyone thinks." And that's where this kind of manipulation is so powerful because you're creating the idea that a narrative is popular, >> right? >> And a lot of people then go, "Well, maybe that's what I should believe."
4:10>> Especially with the bots, cuz you'll have a story that's clearly either biased or full of [ __ ] totally. And then you'll have a bunch of bots agreeing with it and, you know, saying what should be done to these people and this is a this is an outrage. And then you find out it's completely fabricated.
4:26You're like, well, what are they doing? Like what's happening here? like why are there so many of these, you know, Bob 67432 >> people that are commenting on this and what are they trying to prove or what are they trying to push? >> And it's not just that. It's also you get certain influencers and you see them come up on your timeline time and time and time again with these takes that are just straight out ridiculous.
Outrage, bots, and engagement
4:46But they and then you look underneath and you look at the amount of retweets. You look at the engagement. You go to you think to yourself that that that just can't be real cuz that is such a ridiculous take that they've just given you. But the engagement is unreal. And then you see it time and time again from the same influences.
5:07>> Yeah. Well, I think just becoming outrageous is profitable, right? >> Yeah. >> That's the problem. >> Yeah. So like you could just have a take like so let's take out fake stories. So you could just have a contrarian take that's preposterous and just gets you angry the moment you read it and then you see a [ __ ] you and then but that's that's engagement and that's what these people want.
5:29And some people on Twitter are they just enga exist for engagement. >> They're not good faith actors. They're just weird people that, you know, are probably on all sorts of weird drugs and they're somewhere just [ __ ] tweeting up a storm. >> Yeah. And it's also as well because uh now you can monetize your ex.
5:47Yeah. >> That means that that's incentivized people to create posts that are going to get more engagement. Yeah. >> And what's the what's one really easy way of guaranteeing engagement is negative engagement. If you piss people off, if you say something that's outrageous, that's far easier to then get people engaging with you than to do something funny or to >> All right, man.
6:09Take it easy. That's been our business model for eight and a half years. You're [ __ ] ruining it. >> But actually, I mean, we're joking. Obviously, I'm actually really happy we this in the last few episodes that we've put out on trigonometry, you've got um we've got David Pacman, who's a leftwing guy, Dave Smith, who's like a libertarian guy, and we've got Steven Crowder coming out uh soon.
6:29So, like we actually got to the point where we always wanted to be where we're talking to everybody. It's what I always really enjoyed about you and the way you do it, you've always been able I actually kind of marveled at how you were able to do it because when we started, we had a very hard time getting more of the left leaning guest on.
6:46Yeah, >> you never seem to have that problem. You just get everybody on and they're happy to come on and talk. Um, and I that's what actually you need more of in the world. I think the outrage stuff you're talking about, it really pushes people apart. We were really interested in how do you bring people together to have one conversation based on an agreed set of facts.
7:04>> I think as long as you're getting people that are honest, that are good faith conversationalists, you know, and I think that's that is an issue and I that's what I don't want to do anymore. I don't want to have on uh these people that I think are full of [ __ ] that are propagandists, that are that are loyal to a party to the point where they'll just distort facts or obfiscate or talk over you when you're trying to make points >> like the Pierce Morgan model where you see like someone will be saying
7:32something and the other person just chime in and just talk over them to try to disrupt their pattern of thinking. It's very annoying and stupid and I'm I'm not interested in that at all. Yeah. And I I'm not interested in talking to people that I think are just outright liars unless like I have some [ __ ] obligation to expose them, but I don't I don't want to I don't I don't want that to be a thing that I want to do all the time where it's just bring on people that I know you're full of [ __ ] and like
7:59say I've got the facts. Like >> I like to talk to people that I'm interested in talking to >> and that's my business model. I mean it's not a business model. It's just like it's what I started doing and that's what I want to keep doing. And if that, you know, like I I was very interested in talking to Bernie again.
8:14>> You know, I don't agree with him on a lot of things, but I don't think he's a bad person, you know, and I think he, you know, >> he's an older guy with some ideals that just didn't pan out. And I think he still believes that there's like a way to do this that's different and better for the people and for the working people.
8:32But I think after a while you say these words like you know what it's like when you have an act and you've been doing a bit for a long time and then the bit stops losing meaning. You just say it the way you've always said it >> but it doesn't have any meaning to you anymore and the bit starts to get stale >> and it starts to die off.
8:50And if you're smart you pull it out of the act you put it on the shelf and you go I got to rework that thing or something. It's like I don't I'm not attached to it anymore. It doesn't feel real. I'm just saying it to go through the motions. That's how I feel like when he starts talking about climate change and stuff like that.
9:06I go, "Okay, what are we talking about? How much have you looked into it?" Cuz if you really look into climate change, it's very [ __ ] confusing. Like, it's not as simple as >> like there was just an article today that someone sent me that they think that global warming may have stopped uh an imminent ice age that was coming, which was one of the things that they were talking about like during the 1970s.
Climate, heat deaths, and energy
9:27That was a big thing. It was a big narrative about climate change. That was the big fear was that a new ice age was coming. >> In fact, uh, an episode of that Leonard Nemoy show. Did you ever watch that? In search of great [ __ ] show. It was great because it was a mix of like horseshit, doom and gloom, Bigfoot, UFOs, all kinds of stuff.
9:45But it was Leonard Nemoy, you know, Spock from Star Trek. >> And uh, he had a whole article about eminent ice age >> and that like that's the thing that we really should be afraid of. It's a [ __ ] terrifying proposition that the world freezes over again cuz if it gets hot, you just move to the places that used to be cold >> and get air conditioning, right?
10:07>> Yeah. And get air conditioning. >> We don't have air conditioning, Joe. >> In England? No. At all? >> No. No. Well, >> that's why you guys die every year. Yeah. >> Like more people die in England from I think this is a fact. I think more people die in in not in England but in Europe in all of Europe from heat stroke during summer than gun violence in the United States.
10:29>> I might have made that up. >> Yeah, you know, but to actually there is a serious point in what you're saying. >> I think it's a high number though because I was just going to say I was just going to say like that just sounds real. >> That sounds real after the summer we've had. >> Yeah, it must be true.
10:46>> Yeah. Well, >> it sounds real. >> I don't understand why people haven't adopted air conditioning. Is it a a money thing? >> Well, it's the same green uh nonsense that you're talking about. >> Oh, no. >> Because air conditioning consumes a lot of energy and it it therefore causes more climate change, quote unquote.
11:06Actually, more people die in in England from cold in winter than they die from heat. >> Here we go. Europe had an estim Okay. Yes. If you mean deaths attributed to heat rather than specifically heat stroke. >> European heat death estimates can exceed the total number of US firearm deaths. But the compar comparison needs a few qualifications.
11:27Same year comparison. Europe had an estimated 61,672 heat related deaths during the summer. That's [ __ ] crazy. United States recorded more than 48,000 firearm deaths over the entire year according to the CDC. That includes suicides, homicides, and other firearm deaths, not just murders, including also cops shooting bad guys.
11:50So in that year, yes, uh even Europe's summer heat death estimate exceeded America's full firearm death count. I Well, heat stroke, we don't have to say heat stroke. That was a maybe a bad terminology, but just from heat. What about from cold? How many look Look up how many Europeans die from cold every year?
12:12What do you guess? think it's more. >> I don't know about Europeans. In Britain, I know more people die from cold and heat in Britain specifically. >> Wow, that's crazy. >> I I imagine in Italy less so. >> That's crazy. >> Like in the in the South. >> It's confused because you spelled year wrong, Jamie.
12:31>> Figure it out. >> There you go, Joe. >> 364,000 people a year die from cold, >> right? across 30 European countries according to a 2024 study. Wow. That is an estimated annual average based on 1991 to 2020, not a count for the LA latest year. That is really crazy though. >> Well, this is what people don't understand about the the climate change agenda is it's it's pushed electricity prices up and so and gas prices and so energy is much more expensive.
13:03So you literally have pensioners freezing to death in winter cuz they can't afford to heat their home properly cuz we're saving the planet. Anyway, your point I think is we need the second amendment and air conditioning in the UK. >> That would help a lot. >> That would help you guys a lot. A lot of things would change.
13:22>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean the fact that we don't the majority of places don't have air con. Like if you're if you're dating Joe and you want to bring a lady back to your flat, all you need to say is you've got air con. So it is available to some. Yeah. So like imagine if you move into a place and it doesn't have air conditioning.
13:39How much hoops and ladders do you have to go through to get air conditioning into your into your place? >> Well, so now I I'm having air conditioning installed in my house right now. >> You don't have it right now? >> Uh I just bought a house that doesn't have it. Um but it you know the the climate is not like here in Austin.
13:54Like it is survivable. Uh you know it's hot. >> It's hot, right? Right. Um >> like what is a what is a hot Fahrenheit day in England? >> I don't know what I don't know Fahrenheit. >> Give me Celsius. >> Uh 30. We've had like 37 38 maybe up to 40 this year. >> Okay. So that's like in the 90s. >> That's high.
14:12Yeah. Yeah. It's high. >> What is that Jamie? >> What is Let's uh let's >> let's say 40. What is 40 Fahrenheit or 40 Celsius rather? >> 40 is probably about 100 degrees cuz 40 is when you're having a if you have if your body temperature is 40, you've got a very bad fever. >> It's 104. >> 104. Okay. So you g you guys have 104 days >> like one or two over the course of a year.
14:34>> Yeah. >> But you got to remember though, Joe, is like the infrastructure and the houses and the trains and all the public transport, they're not built for that kind of climate, right? >> So if you go to on holiday in Italy and it's 40, that's one thing. If it's 40 in the UK in houses that are built to keep the heat in during winter, it's a different conversation, you So, the average daytime high in uh July and August is 70°.
15:02>> But we have had very hot days the last couple of summers. Very hot. >> Anyway, >> and that's when people start freaking out about climate change. But that's just so narrow-minded. And it's not that we shouldn't be concerned if the earth gets warmer. That's not what I'm saying. But I'm saying it's never been static.
15:16So this idea that oh my god this is we're doing this like are we do you know do you know about the entire history of the world's temperature because it varies insanely. Not only that there's been many times in earth's history where there was way more carbon in the air and it was way cooler. Doesn't make any sense.
15:37And if you don't understand differential equations, if you don't understand like the way the wind blows and solar activity and all these different variables that come into play along with greenhouse gases, along with carbon, there's so many different variables that come into play like this. These narratives are so unscientific for the people that want to say trust the science.
15:59Well, the science on climate change is [ __ ] incredibly complex or just climate period. forget about the word climate change >> and you it's so interesting you use the word I'm scientific because I often think about this most of my family are scientists physi physicists biochemical engineers the thing with like when a normal person hears the word science what they think is if I pick up this phone and drop it is going to fall at a predictable speed because we understand the rules of gravity we can calculate it
16:29we can calculate the speed the acceleration all that stuff climate science is modeling modeling >> right >> that's Not the I'm not saying it's not science exactly, but that's not what we think about as normal just ordinary people. When we think about science, we think about something that's 100% predictable, measurable, calculable.
16:47You can go if we change this, then this is going to happen. Climate modeling is not like that. It's it's an approximation and an estimate based on a lot of assumptions. And we don't know how accurate those assumptions are. But even if you accept all that, what's interesting is in Britain is, do you know what percentage of global carbon emissions Britain produces?
Carbon emissions and green profiteering
17:08>> Oh god, it's got to be minuscule. >> 1%. >> Yeah. >> So if we reduced it to zero, we'd not have any impact on the climate at all while just destroying our economy, killing people. And that's what we've done. We have the highest industrial electricity prices in the world. That's why you can't you can't build anything in the UK.
17:26You can't run a business, an industrial business. You can't make anything. Um, you know, it's funny. You guys are having this big battle over data centers here. >> Yeah. >> We don't have that cuz we're not [ __ ] building any. >> Yeah. The other super inconvenient thing when it comes to carbon is that there's more vegetation, more leaf coverage in a in the world now than there has been in a long [ __ ] time.
17:52>> Global greening. >> Yeah. It's because of carbon. Because plants actually consume carbon dioxide. It's like like what are we doing? Like what are we what are we freaking out about? Well, we're freaking out about a bunch of people that have engineered a narrative to get us to freak out about it so they can profit off of it.
18:08And that's the reality of it is that all of these green deals and all this green energy, these people get contracts and these and then there's mandates for what you can and can't use and what you should and shouldn't do. And then people profit off of these directions that we go in. And that's the real problem.
18:28It's not like we're looking out for the world. Shut the [ __ ] up. When people say that we need to look out for the world, like none of these people pushing this are looking out for the world. Just so you know. You might be. You liberal lady in East Austin with the [ __ ] science is science bumper sticker on your [ __ ] Prius.
18:47Maybe maybe you really are a genuinely good person looking out for the the people that are pushing that are not. They're trying to profit. They're sitting in boardrooms and they're showing spreadsheets of how much money they'll make if a certain bill goes through because if the certain bill restricts one type of energy and promotes their type of energy, even if their type of energy, like windmills, is terrible for the environment and radically inefficient, they're going to profit.
19:14And that's what they're thinking about. And so then they're going to pay politicians to push certain narratives. They're going to fund these people. They're going to put out advertisements for a greener Texas, you know, paid for by a greener Texas. Who's paying that? Corporations. People making large amounts of money and they don't give a [ __ ] about your environment.
19:35They want to make money. They're vampires. They're vampire people. >> And it's always been that way. Like oil companies funded anti-uclear. >> Right. Right. >> It's just that's how it works in Britain now. So I am actually going to get an electric car soon, right? And the reason is they've created the incentive structures whereby if you get an electric car, especially through your business, you can basically get a car that's twice as good for the same money because you get so much tax write off
20:05because like you said, people have created a structure whereby if you encourage people to do this, they save money, right? >> And who benefits from that? Well, it's it's it's the it's the people who who are producing that type of vehicle >> 100%. In Texas, we have an issue right now where they're trying to ban marijuana and why they're trying to do that because alcohol sales are way down.
20:27Like way down, like disturbingly down. And uh one factor that a lot of people aren't taking into consideration is GLP1s. It's OMIC. There are [ __ ] millions of people on GP and millions more that are lying about being on. >> I saw a guy that I know is on him. I said, "Dude, you're looking great. What are you doing?"
20:51He's like, "Oh, calorie restriction." >> Well, technically you're not lying. You're lying. You're [ __ ] You know what you're doing. >> Yeah. It's >> embarrassing. You know, I always feel like when you talk about any issue, a lot of it just comes down to education. You know, people don't have a good grasp of actually what's happening.
21:12So, what it is that people have inside them is a vacuum and eventually something has to fill that vacuum because you can't operate particularly now with a going when someone asks you about whatever it is, climate change, the Middle East, the war in whatever subject you want to talk about, most people simply don't have >> the education, the answers.
21:31So they don't have their own opinions, so they simply reach for something. And you know what you're going to reach for? You're going to reach for a slogan, right? >> And it's going to come from the most prominent person there is. >> I have a theory about why the left is so much more loony currently. I mean, it's not like the right isn't loony.
21:49The right is very [ __ ] loony, but the left is loony and some like things that don't make any sense. And um I think it's because the left is secular like almost universally. Like when you think about the left, you generally don't think about like Christianity or any any religion really. It's more of like a science-based like we're too smart for that thing.
Religion, secularism, and progressivism
22:12And I think they're just lost. There's no there's no moral scaffolding to hold on to. There's no not and I'm not saying you know religion is 100% great but what I am saying is there's something about having a structure like ten commandments or what you know whatever they have in whatever religion we're talking about where there's rules to abide by because there's a higher power and then you worship and in worshiping there's there's a humility to that and a humbleness to that and then there's this
22:45community where everyone's drawn together and we're all agreeing on certain rules like I always talk about like the church parking lot is proof that Christianity works cuz everybody's so nice. They all let you go. Like you go, you go. Like it's all so orderly. Like nowhere on earth. I'm like just that alone proves that Christianity can work and that there's something to that.
23:04I guarant [ __ ] tee you if you went to like some trans rights rally and you parked your car and tried to leave. It would not be so kind. It would not be the same. It would not especially if you were like in a pickup truck or something with an American flag on it. You're right. they'd be rude as [ __ ] to you.
23:20Whereas, >> I think a part of what's wrong with this this side of our politics when you look at the two sides, the left and the right, is that the left is almost like I would have I would I wanted to know like what percentage of people who identify as progressive have any religion. >> Um, >> we could probably find that out, J.
23:44>> Yeah, let's find out. >> Would be interesting. It's what you were talking about with a vacuum. So I think this is my belief at 59 years of age that there's a part of people that almost like is designed a part of the the human psyche that's designed for religion >> and we have had it for so long. We have had it for so many thousands and thousands and thousands of years.
24:06I just think it's the way the human mind works. And I think in the absence of religion, we find something that Stop that for a second. We find something that does the job of religion. And that thing that does the job of religion is being progressive or being whatever you're being, you know, like find find a cause.
24:28Find a thing. Climate change, whatever it is, find a thing that becomes your religion. And anybody that is confronting that with an alternative perspective is a heretic. That's a bad person. That's the evil. That's an infidel. >> And that's how they behave. They behave like religious zealots regard like I'm sure you've seen these conversations and you've had them with people.
24:49You just confront people in the street and start asking them questions. If if you don't agree with them, even if like you you're great at it because you're so calm and rational. YOU SEE THEM JUST [ __ ] THEY JUST don't want to be confronted by alternative perspectives. They're very much like a religion.
25:05>> No, it's totally. And it's interesting. We just had Jonathan height uh on back on the show. We haven't released it yet, but it's one of the things we talked about. We we talked about religion and he's not a religious person, but he was like, I used to be very snooty about it and now I just go whatever you believe.
25:21It's a social technology for achieving cohesion within a group and for giving people and you know on a personal level as well I think one of the things that Christianity in particular is very very good at is gratitude which is just a practice that forget about God and all the rest of it. The practice of acknowledging how fortunate you are at any point in your life is something that changes how you experience life.
25:48And if you do that every day, I think it's much much harder to be a deranged lunatic who who who thinks that they're polit like there's political causes I feel very strongly about. But I'm not going to go on a march and scream at people who don't agree with me >> cuz I just that's not it's not coherent to my worldview of what it is to be human.
26:12>> It's also radically ineffective >> and completely ineffective. >> Never changes anybody's opinion >> ever. Ever. No one screams in your face. You go, "Wow, I see your point." What are the What are the stats you were trying to pull up earlier, Jamie? >> So, here we go. Affiliated with a religion. 78% of Republicans, Republican leaning independents identify with a religion.
Polls, religion, and cannabis
26:32So, with Democrats, it's about 60%. >> Wow. >> Interesting. It's a lot more than I thought. Religiously unaffiliated, about 39% did not answer about 1%. Like, what was that? [ __ ] off. 1% across the board. I'm in that group. That is the most intelligent group on on earth. The about 1%. The 1% that will not answer polls.
26:58That was my take on polls always. I was like, here's the problem with polls. Most people don't answer polls. If somebody calls you up and said, I'd like a few moments of your time to ask you a few questions. [ __ ] you. Anybody with a life, anybody that has like a family and stuff to do and hobbies they enjoy and friends they want to hang out with, they don't sit around answering some [ __ ] poll.
27:17So you're literally getting the opinion the people so [ __ ] stupid they answer polls. So add it out of those people like if you if there's an issue like 49% agree that means less than half of the people that are so [ __ ] stupid they're answering polls agree with you. That's not good, >> right? >> Yeah.
27:37>> You know it's the same with studies that they do at colleges because they always use college students. So like you're getting a very skewed perspective on humanity. >> Yes. Yeah. if that's how you're measuring what human beings respond to. >> Another thing that's interesting with the religious thing when it comes to the left is there's been this uh larger than normal presence of uh these like LGBT pastors and these people that are promoting a very different Christianity, you know, and they're they're talking
28:09about things that, you know, biblical scholars are like, "Hey, wait, what page is this on? What? Where where does it say abortion's okay? Like, how are you getting to that? Where does it say God's non-binary? You know, there's a lot of this weirdness that this woke weirdness that sort of entered into religion in some some pastors are doing it.
28:26And you go, okay, is that good? I don't know if that's good. I mean, is it because you're not following the original stuff? So, if we're going to not follow the original stuff, shouldn't we go and take out the slavery part first? Like, shouldn't we go and take out the slaughtering of women and children first?
28:49Cuz that's in there. There's a lot of stuff that's in there we should probably concentrate on first before we start saying God's non-binary. >> But, >> you know what I mean? >> Yeah. It's true. It's true. It's like cuz I was raised Catholic and and I go to a church. I went once to a couple of times to a Church of England mass and it's like look if you're going to mass you want the product, right?
29:11>> You want the you know you want the real deal. You want the Marbor Reds. >> You want to hear the Latin. >> Yeah. You you want the good stuff. >> Yeah. You want to sit there and think to yourself, "Fuck, I'm going to hell and it's going to be awful." >> We really should get the original the original version when they would come down the aisle with incense.
29:27It was cannabis. They would have these big [ __ ] like things where they handle you know those things they >> Yeah, it was cannabis. >> It was cannabis. What church are you going >> high as [ __ ] They're getting everybody high so they get along with everybody. >> No wonder they're trying to ban it in Texas, man.
29:45>> The Texas thing is all about the alcohol. It's all about alcohol. It's like traceable money to Dan Patrick and some other people. It's traceable. Like you could see how these people support him and you see that they want this and because it's like it's hurting their business. And if people can just get high and you know, like here's the thing about marijuana.
30:02Even if they do what like Colorado did. So Colorado was the first, shout out to Colorado, the first to legalize cannabis. And one of the things they did is say, "We're going to put a crazy tax on it and just use that tax for [ __ ] schools and all kinds of other stuff." Everybody be happy because you got all this new tax revenue.
30:20I think it was like 39%. Which is really And everybody's like, "Great, fine." Because marijuana is relatively inexpensive for what? Like if you go out drinking with some buddies, >> [ __ ] man. You bring five buddies, you're picking up a tab, they're picking up a tab, you guys are having fun, you're drinking, you're ordering, but you have five $600 at the end of the night.
30:38Easy. Easy. Right. Easy. >> Mhm. >> Marijuana. $600. You're dead. You smoke $600 of the weed will [ __ ] you up for a month. You'll be just lying in YOUR BED GOING, "WHY did I do that?" Yeah, >> that's that's not going to happen. It's a different thing. It's like one joint like what is a joint these days, Jamie?
31:01You're a young fellow. >> In California where you completely buy them probably in the range of 15 to $20, I bet. >> Yeah. 15 20 bucks. You're barbecued for the whole night. >> Yeah. >> Especially California cannabis. >> The they've got scientists that have been working on this [ __ ] for a long time, man.
31:17They are not normal joints. Every now and then, Ron White will bring one by the mothership. being like, "Get that out of here before everybody dies. No one can handle this." They all dust them with kef. They they they have THC crystals all over them. It's like >> they're going too hard. They sell they sell some joints that are like guaranteed to [ __ ] you up.
Alcohol, supplements, and health
31:35They're like a hundred bucks. >> And it's also as well, it's like young people don't have the money to go out boozing like we did when we were young, when when everything was much cheaper. Well, there's also, I think, and this is a positive aspect of the internet, um, and all these, uh, health and wellness influencers, is that a lot of people are realizing like, hey, alcohol is actually bad for you.
31:57I like it. I took a long time off of it. Took like eight months, which is a long time for me. And, um, I noticed a big difference the moment I moment I stopped drinking. I just felt way better. Felt better throughout the day. I felt like my energy levels were much more consistent. I felt better waking up.
32:14>> It's better. It's not good to poison yourself all the time, right? >> But it's also fun, >> right? It's like it's like all drugs. It's got good and bad. I would say alcohol is kind of a [ __ ] drug in terms of the good versus the bad. I'd like a glass glass of wine with dinner or something, but beyond that, the trade-offs go way down.
32:30Like the second, third, like you're not >> it's not improving your enjoyment of the evening. >> No, it's very expensive. Then you and at our age you wake up the next day after I I'm like I after one glass of wine I wake up the next day I'm like h you know even one glass of wine. >> Yeah that'll do. I >> you know what it'll help you >> glutathione.
32:52>> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um especially liposomaal glutathione is more um bioavailable. But uh glutathione is really good for >> you. Take it the night when you're drinking. >> Take it while you're drinking. >> Take it before you're drinking. Take it after you're drinking. >> All right. I'm back on the source.
33:07Thanks Joe. But also there's an one of the issues with alcohol is dehydration. Yeah. >> And it's an amunosuppressant. So you should be taking amino acids. Uh you should be taking um definitely some electrolytes but uh also glutathione. >> It's a kind of mixed sales pitch. Imagine you were like a rep for an alcohol company.
33:24You can you can have a glass of wine, but you need to take about five supplements in the same time. >> Well, listen, I think everybody should take supplements anyway. I I really do. I think uh there's a lot of uh misleading doctors out there that you shouldn't listen to that'll tell I had a doctor with a pot belly once tell me that you get everything you need from a balanced diet.
33:42I'm like shut the [ __ ] up. >> You you shut the [ __ ] up. I didn't say that to him, but I really wanted to. I was kind of gentle about it. I said, "Sir, uh I have been taking vitamins for a long time and I notice a market difference between the when I take them and when I don't take them. There's a lot of benefits and there's a lot of peer-reviewed studies that show benefits of vitamins.
33:59Yeah. So, let's just stop talking about this before I get [ __ ] angry at you. You fat [ __ ] >> Fat [ __ ] giving out health advice. >> Yeah. Thanks for looking at me when you said that, Joe. I appreciate this fort. >> And then you looked at me while you said that. >> I had to look at you. I'm being joking.
34:17I'm a polite host. >> But um like you know, one of my uh one of my cousins, this is a true story. Uh he was a cardiologist. He used to smoke like 40 a day. >> Great. Perfect. He's probably stressed out. He's probably got bills to pay and [ __ ] I don't know what you guys have over there because you have your your education isn't free.
34:39>> No. >> Up to what level? >> Up to like So to get a a doctor's degree, it's free up until college. >> Yeah. But then you have to pay. >> Um and then what about liability insurance? Do you guys have outrageous liability insurance for doctors? Because that's a giant issue with doctors. don't think it's as outrageous as it is here because we our laws are different and we're also not such a latigious culture.
35:02Like a British person who's had a bad experience unless it's really really bad will not be like I'm suing the [ __ ] like we don't tend to >> Wouldn't that be nice? >> Yeah. >> Wouldn't that be nice? Wouldn't that be nice? >> Yeah. But you there's a trade-off to which is like our service culture in the UK is objectively disgusting.
35:20>> It's a lot closer to the Soviet Union than it is to America. Like in the Soviet Union when basically if you went to a shop, they would treat you like they were doing you a favor. >> And Britain is much closer to that than it is to America where really >> Yeah. where people are like happy to see you.
35:35Like I walk into a restaurant in Texas, they're happy to see I'm like what the [ __ ] Where? And it takes me like a week to adjust to the fact that people are nice. >> Well, people are nice here in general. Like much nicer than California. And I think one of the reasons is there's less people. M >> I really believe that there's an effect that it has on humans no matter who you are when there's an enormous number of people surrounding you all the time.
35:57I think it's just >> I totally agree. >> I think it's this place is only a million people. >> Well, you know, there was a guy I talk about this all the time when we talk about, you know, everyone's concerned about plummeting birth rates and all of that and a lot of people >> everybody but Elon, he's pumping them out, man.
36:13Um he's >> But he is concerned. That's why he's doing it. >> He's doing something about it. Uh I'm I I'm at replacement rate with my family now with two. >> Good job. >> Uh but I but I think uh my sense has always been I read this great book by a guy called Desmond Morris. He was a primatologist. He studied great apes and he wrote a book called the human zoo which was all about how the city creates in human beings the kind of responses that a zoo creates in animals.
Cities, nature, and wellbeing
36:42>> High rates of interpersonal violence, higher rates of mental illness, lower reproductiveness, higher rates of depression. All of this stuff >> totally makes sense. >> And I've moved out of a the small town that I lived in outside and I already noticed a difference. Like we went in on a Saturday to do some shopping and I was like get me the [ __ ] out of here.
36:59Like after 10 minutes it was just like too many people. I only go into London now for work, do the work, come out and just hide in my house now. >> Yeah. So you become accustomed to that buzz of the city, but it's not necessarily good for you. >> It's not good for you. I don't think it's good for you.
37:16I don't think it >> being accustomed to the buzz of the city is like being accustomed to social media. It's constant dopamine. It's constant constant constant you always looking for the next thing. You're always looking for something to stimulate you. It's why a lot of people in the city when things go quiet they can't handle it.
37:35>> Right. Yeah. I have a good friend who's lived in Manhattan for boy more than 30 years and he recently got a place on Fire Island. not recently, like within the last 10, 15 years. And he said without that place in Fireland, he wouldn't even be able to keep his place in Manhattan. He said he can't deal with it anymore.
37:51But Fire Island's like a small island. I don't think they even have cars. I think you get there on a ferry and everybody rides bikes and it's like and so he goes there and then he comes back. Beep beep. [ __ ] you. But you just you the contrast of the two of them makes it liveable. Yeah. >> Whereas when I first met him, he was like, I [ __ ] love it.
38:13I love the energy of this city. And I was there like, I've got my own energy. I got to get the [ __ ] out of here. I don't like this. I I like woods. >> I like peace. I like to be able to sit on top of a hill and see birds fly overhead. That's what I like. I like nature. I do not like being in like a cramped [ __ ] group of all kinds of people stacked, feeling each other's energy.
38:34It's fun occasionally. New York's fun to visit, >> but living there, sleeping there, >> it pays you pay a toll. you you do pay a toll because that city like we've got a friend who lets us use his apartment and it's a beautiful apartment in Manhattan but you can never really sleep cuz what YOU SAID IT'S LIKE [ __ ] YOU [ __ ] you in the ass >> and it's like YOU GO WHAT'S GOING ON and it's like it's 3:15 do you know what I mean >> and you're going the people are insane they're driven insane by this
39:08>> well it's also a 24-hour city a legitimate 24-hour city >> you know And when I was single, it was great cuz uh pool halls are open in New York City 24 hours a day. So, you know, Chelsea Billiards, which is where we would go, was like this crazy place that was like a a playground that was open 24 hours a day.
39:25Like, this is nuts. And then you can go to a diner. You can go to you you could get a real meal. Apparently, a lot of this died during CO, but you can get like a steak dinner at 4:00 a.m. like a nice restaurant. You could sit down. Like, this is crazy. This place is nuts. It was fun when I was 23. >> It's fun.
39:42It's fun. New York is a lot of fun. We We have a good time. We're there for a week. We go to our favorite cigar bars, you know? You know, all of that. It's fun. >> It's fun. >> But I think it's also once you get married and you have kids, then the calculus changes completely. Like I would rather spend >> half an hour with my son walking in the woods.
40:00>> Yeah. >> Over, you know, whatever the best New York has to offer. You know what I mean? It's just >> for sure. Well, it's for me too. a lot changed um as I when I'm when I got uh on moved to Los Angeles, I started moving further and further away from the city. >> And as I moved further and further away from the city, I became more and more relaxed.
40:19>> I was like, I think there's something to this. And so where I lived most of the time when I was living in um LA was not even in LA County. I was living in the neighborhood county, neighboring county. I had plenty of acres. I had mountain lions and bobcats and all kinds of [ __ ] in my neighborhood.
40:34deer in my neighborhood. It's way more relaxed. It was just I could go outside and just hear birds and, you know, and see, you know, a hawk circling over a canyon looking for a rabbit. It was awesome. I loved it. It was just so much better than just being inundated with sounds and movement and activity.
40:51It's just like, >> you know, when I when I was teaching, I remember every year cuz I was teaching a really rough part of East London. We used to take the kids away for a oneweek residential in out in the countryside and they would do activities and whatever else. And you would literally see a different side to these kids >> 100%.
41:12>> You would when you saw them on the playground, they were surrounded by concrete and just skyscrapers and tower blocks. They everybody even when you started the day everybody and these some these were 10 11 year old kids everybody just felt amped like they were ready to conf for concentration they were ready to go >> after a week in the countryside you saw a different side to these kids >> yeah cuz that's how people are supposed to live that's how we evolved just like we evolved with religion we also evolved
41:40in nature and I think we're struggling with the absence of both of those things in our society and the big one to me the biggest one is not just nature but is also light pollution. >> And you know, we were talking about the other day uh Colin Tyrell, hilarious standup comedian was on and uh he was talking about how he goes to uh Big Ben and uh goes down to uh there's an area of Texas and South Texas that is like one of the best places to see the sky, the night sky, and how [ __ ] insane it
42:11is. You just just you're just confronted by the Milky Way and all these stars. >> I think that chills people out, too. That puts that puts your place in the universe in perspective. And in the cities, that's the most absent. You can't see any stars. So in the cities, everything's bright. You just see a black sky.
Media pressure and political ads
42:26Who gives a [ __ ] what's up there? Let's go eat. Let's go do this. Let's go do that. [ __ ] these people. Like you [ __ ] fascists or you whatever it is. It's like you're you're living in this this very tiny blindered world. I think for people like us as well who who by virtue of what we do are digitally plugged in like we have to kind of pay attention a little bit to what's going on.
42:49So I certainly spend a lot of time on my phone when you know I remember a month or two ago there was some [ __ ] going on people talking [ __ ] about as always about us on social media or in the papers what and then I just sit in my garden and I see these two giant trees that are like 300 years old. >> Who gives a [ __ ] Yeah.
43:05When you're there you just go who gives a [ __ ] It's you know >> it's also the cost of what we do. Yeah. >> The cost of what we do is people are going to have opinions. You want them to have opinions. Some of the opinions are going to suck and some of them are going to be completely outrageous and some are going to be just outright lies where they just want to take you down.
43:21That's okay. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. The lies piss me off. I I'll be honest. The lies piss me off because I'm like I am happy to be criticized for mistakes I make. I'm happy to be criticized for things that I said in articulately. I'm happy to be criticized by people who don't like my world view. But don't [ __ ] lie about don't make up [ __ ] about me and and tell other people that that's what I am.
43:45>> That pisses me off. >> That we should reject that from everyone from both sides. And the problem is if it aligns with your ideology, you won't call it out and you accept it and it's fine. >> It's just like, you know, I always say that these parties that, you know, unfortunately we only have two are defined by the craziest members of those parties.
44:05Like when you think about the left, what do you think about people that want trans women in sports and communism and an open border? And then when you think about the right, what do you think about like patriot and [ __ ] you know, religious fundamentalists that want the Bible in every school and, you know, xenophobic people that think this is a white Christian nation and that's it.
44:27>> It's just so exhausting. And if you spend enough time absorbing all of this online, it completely warp your world view instead of just basing your world view on how you interact with people in real life, >> you know, and most people now are tainted by this. So even interacting with them in real life is a problem, especially if you don't catch them one-on-one.
44:49>> Yeah. >> You know, it was three of them and one of you, then it's a problem. Like, why are you talking to me like this? Like you you would never talk to me like this. It was you and me and we were alone. This is crazy. This is a crazy way to talk to people if you have an opinion about something and we both have the the time which is another thing to actually discuss this like this is a timeconsuming nuance discussion like let's if which is a beautiful thing what we're allowed to
45:13do we can sit down and have those discussions and I think it's super beneficial for other people to be able to listen because if someone sees some Twitter hot take on you they can get a very distorted perception of who you are and then they hear you on on a podcast, they go, "Wait a minute, this guy is pretty reasonable.
45:29He's seems like a nice guy." Like, the [ __ ] is going on in the world? >> Right? >> But if you're only a clips person and you're only a Twitter person and you're only a hottake person, you just and you're tired. You're you're working all day. You have a [ __ ] whole bunch of obligations. You're going to like lock into a fake version of the world.
45:47And that version of the world is going to give you anxiety. But it's also about incentives because if you are a hot takes person, if you are a clips person, you actually don't care about the truth because that's not what you're aiming for. What you're actually aiming for is engagement. It's views. It's all the rest of it.
46:04It's money. So unfortunately, as we all know, there's the truth is important, but it doesn't generate it doesn't engage people as much as a hot take, as much as something that is potentially devised. >> Here's how I'd push back on that. The success of podcasts like yours. M >> and mine like this is the difference, right?
46:24It's like it's clear that there's a thirst for this. There's a hunger for people having discussions and for people that say, "Oh, well, I see this point of view. I see why you would think that way. This is what I think and let's talk." >> There's a hunger for that. Obviously, >> yeah, >> it's not just that the only interaction that humans are having is these [ __ ] artists that are making these fake posts or these these very biased post just to get engagement because that's how they
46:51make their money, which are that's a it's a sizable population online, but there's also plenty of people that are having real conversations. >> Yeah. And it's like you said, I think politics is what what changes all of it. And and maybe that's where I acknowledged that we like when we started the show we had a rule that we would never have sitting politicians on the show >> and then you know we we got interested in more politics and we had access to more politicians and suddenly we talked
47:16to a few and then people go oh okay so this is like you're on a team you're on the other team and now the gloves are off man it is crazy like we were sitting in Airbnb uh yesterday preparing for one of our interviews watching something on YouTube but because we weren't logged in with our own account You get YouTube ads and right now as we're recording this, it's the midterms coming up >> and the political attack ads.
47:38Have you seen this [ __ ] >> Oh, I've seen a lot of them in America, >> bro. It is if you show that to a person who's not used to it, like it is shocking to me. It's like Ken Paxton loves pedophiles. Like, whoa. Right. That's And the other way too, right? James Tallerica wants to take your daughter and rape her and then trans her.
47:57Like, whoa. is since like imagine imagine talking about people like that. >> Right. Right. >> Imagine you came on here and you were just like the Republicans want to trans your kids and the dem or the Democrats want No, that would be crazy. The Democrats want to trans >> Well, listen, give it another 30 years, right?
48:16>> It could completely flip >> swing. When the Republicans are transing your kids, that's when you know you really are [ __ ] >> Well, that's when we know that the world is a changed place. When they're secretly straight people, >> right? >> Yeah. So, like there's someone living a gay lifestyle because it's super popular, but he's secretly straight and we have to like find him and TMZ catches him making out with a woman like Donald S.
48:38They're living in an invasion of the body statures. >> Somebody gets outed for watching straight porn. >> Yeah. One day, one day, one day if the the Democrats have their way out, >> but then but then like you said, I mean the stakes I also see it the other way though cuz the stakes are high. Like if you if you take illegal immigration like that was a real problem in this country under the Democrats like gigantic, right?
Immigration, the border, and census
49:03>> Gigantic. >> Not according to the view by the way. >> The view fact checked me on that. In fact, the border was closed. That was one of Yeah. Oh my god. They did a fact check of me saying why I voted Republican. And I said there's there was so many things that were going the wrong way with the past administration.
49:19One of them you knew that it wasn't Biden running it. It was who whoever was in his cabinet. they were running the country. Wasn't Biden. He was out of his [ __ ] mind. We all know that. We accept it. There's a bunch of people who have come out and said that that we're working there now. So, that was one.
49:32The other one was the border was wide open and that people were [ __ ] coming through. And [ __ ] Sunny Host fact checked me and actually was saying that Biden told people not to come like but they did. Yeah. And yeah, look, uh, Greg Abbott, our governor, did bust people to New York City because like, look, you guys have passed these policies.
49:55You want this border wide open, you [ __ ] handle these people. And that is true, but it was also true that the Red Cross had stations that were set up where people give people maps, tell them how to get in. That once people did get in, they were given plane tickets, they were given EBT cards, they were given cell phones, they were put up in luxury hotels.
50:14All this is true. Not not just that, but a disproportionate amount of people who moved in who came here illegally moved to swing states. >> Kind of crazy. Seems a little odd. Seems a little odd that you got a large portion of them set up in Ohio and set up in a bunch of these different places like the Haitians in Ohio.
50:33It's a famous part, but it's like there's clearly an incentive. You know what the incentive is? The census counts humans. It doesn't count legal citizens. So if there's 10 million humans and half of them are illegal, doesn't matter. >> That's that indicates how many congressional seats you get. >> That's real.
50:54So if you just flood a place that you're already in control with illegal immigrants that you're paying for, this isn't rocket science that's going to help you stay in power. And that's what was going on. And I felt like that is crazy. So Kla Harris was recently talking about how they need to add more people to the Supreme Court and then then they need to turn DC and Puerto Rico into states.
51:19And why do you want to do that? Because if you do that, then you have control forever, right? And that's that's the reality that I was confronted with with the choices between Kla Harris and Donald Trump. It's something that like I looked at this the Trump administration, I say, "Well, this is perfect.
51:37This is exactly what we want." I I love it when he has a a picture of himself as Jesus and he posted up on truth. This is great. I think some of the things he's done are good for sure. And I think some of the things the FBI has done, this is one of the things that the the left does not want to confront.
51:54There's been a significant drop in crime. Significant significant drop in crime, measurable drop in crime because of the FBI under Cash Patel in this new administration. Now, I don't know why. I don't know what it means. Some people say it's because of under reporting, which is an issue because especially places like Los Angeles, no one gives a [ __ ] if you get robbed.
52:14No one gives a [ __ ] if your car gets broken into. They're not going to do anything. So, it's under reportported crime. And so, they say crime is down. But, is it? >> No. Not Not if you talk to people. They Everybody that I know that lives in Los Angeles says it's [ __ ] Gotham City now. It's [ __ ] nuts.
52:30>> Whereas it wasn't 15 years ago. So, what happened? What happened was the same policies that you [ __ ] people keep voting for keep going further and further and further and further down the line and the further they go the more things get shitty and no one wants to change because you're in a cult.
52:47>> Yeah. It's also worth it, you know, people say these policies are kind that it's the right thing to do morally. as you know, as somebody who talks to whenever I see a Venezuelan person, I always want to talk to them because I want to see how they how they're doing, how they feel the country is doing, how Venezuela is doing.
53:06>> Because you're from Venezuela, always tell people that. >> Yeah. And one thing that I remember this conversation I had with an Uber driver and he was talking to me and he said to me, "Look, when you go on the pods, cuz I follow your pod and I listen to Joe and I follow all these pods, please tell people that Venezuelan people.
53:22We're not criminals. We're not people coming here to cause trouble. The vast majority of us only want to come here to work." And he goes, "But those are the people who do it legally. the other people who come in. Now, I'm sure that some of them just want to come in. A lot of them want to come in just for a better life.
53:39But you're also allowing a portion of people to come in who are criminals who are going to cause trouble. And that's going to give a bad reputation to every single Venezuelan person who is here. Because the moment you hear Venezuelan, you think, oh, Taragua, which is the very famous gang which is causing hu which was causing huge amounts of problem in America, drugs, killings, gang activity.
54:04So immediately when you think of a Venezuelan, you got old trend. You don't think of the guy who's coming along, who's going to work for you, who's going to drive your Uber, who's just doing what he can to make ends meet. >> Now, let me ask you this. Do you think that allowing the illegals in and the criminals in, not just the illegal, let's say, because everyone who comes in that doesn't do it the right way is illegal.
54:26So allowing criminals to come through as well, knowing that this will increase violent crime. Do you think that that is just an unintended side effect of the goal they're trying to achieve, which is get more congressional seats, control districts, make it so that the other party can't win? Or do you think that they have calculated this and said that this would probably be a way that we can institute much more control like flock cameras and have the ability to tap into people's phones,
55:01find out if they're doing illegal activity, and that people will actually allow us to do this because we'll do it under the premise that we're making the street safe again. >> And it's probably quite hard to separate the criminals from the noncriminals as well. If the border is open, then they just come, right?
55:14How would you know? Um the other thing we we had Andrew Yang on recently and this is where it gets even worse because one of the reasons he left the sort of conventional Republican Democratic party model was he said actually neither party wants to solve the problem and he was saying some Republicans will deliberately avoid allowing Democrats to close the border because it gives them something to run on.
55:38>> Of course. Yeah. >> And that's [ __ ] crazy. >> Yeah. >> That that is [ __ ] crazy. >> Yeah. And Anna Paulina Luna explained that to me. >> Yeah. >> She was like, "There's a bunch of issues that they don't want resolved because that's how they >> that's how they raise finances. >> They can run on >> they run on them.
55:53It's campaign talking point. It's like you got to have it. You got to have it in your bag." >> See, this is where I think the left has a lot of very good points actually, which is the accumulation of power within big corporations and government. That's why when I was younger, I always thought of myself, and I haven't really changed my opinions very much.
56:09I thought of myself as being on the left because the more actually we do our show and and the more people we speak to who are in positions to know, the more I'm just confronted by how much behavior in that part of our society is driven by greed and not morality. These people are not moral, right? I'm not even saying they're immoral.
Corporate greed and moral responsibility
56:30I think they're worse. They're amoral. They don't give a [ __ ] as long as they win the election, they make money, they increase their bonus. That's that is so scary to me. It's much scarier actually than people intentionally doing bad things uh in a way. Uh and that accumulation of power in the hands of very small number of people.
56:51U that's a real thing, man. >> It's a real thing and it's also a part of the culture of those groups of people, right? Like there's a diffusion of responsibility aspect of being a part of a corporation that's doing things that are [ __ ] up. Like say if you're working for a corporation and they manufacture something and you find out that these people are dumping >> some sort of toxic waste in the third world >> like uh not me.
57:14I'm in Dallas. I'm working on I'm at my desk. I'm doing spreadsheets, you know. I But you're a part of this corporation, right? But you don't think, oh my god, I'm a part of an evil movement that's killing fish in a river somewhere in Cambodia or whatever. That's not how you think. You're you you are a part of this culture and you if you're a lawyer, hey, I know he's guilty.
57:36I got to get him off. This is the job. If you're working in a corporation, hey, we're here to make money. Like, this is what we do. We have shareholders. We're working 16 hours a day. We're on [ __ ] aderong, you know? We don't have time for morals. Okay, maybe one day I'll be moral, but right now I want a house in the Hamptons.
57:51I want a I want a yacht. I want a I want a [ __ ] jet. And I think I can get there because I know that the guy who used to be the CEO, he left. He got $600 million. And this is what the culture is. The culture is all about making the most money pop as possible. And when you're around a bunch of other people that are doing that, it seems fine.
58:09The responsibility of being moral is completely removed. You're part of a giant machine that you can't stop. And so, listen, you know, we are, you know, Xerox or Rathon, whatever it is. You don't think, you know, oh, I can I can have an effect on the world with my decisions and I should probably do the right thing.
58:28Like, there's none of that going on. >> No. And and also as well, the people that do think like that, they're going to self- select out of that system because they're going to be there going, "Oh, I I dude, we're doing this. I can't live with this." >> They'll leave. They'll write an article for The Atlantic.
58:42Nobody will read it. >> That's it. That's the end of it. >> It's how I think about what we do, though. It's like I think of of of trigonometry is like a family-owned restaurant, right? We're feeding people information, right? Or conversation or whatever it is, but we are providing something that people ingest.
59:01>> Yeah. >> There's a responsibility that comes with that, >> right? You shouldn't put, you know, lead and mercury and all kinds of [ __ ] in there to make it >> taste better or make more money or whatever. And we we know there's people we could have on our show that would get 10 times the views, right?
59:15But it's just not it's not what we do, you know. >> Yeah. No, and I respect that. I think it's clear in your conversations that that's not what you're trying to do. You're not going to play gotcha. >> Whereas, no disrespect to Pierce Morgan, that's his business model. His business models, have a bunch of people on, have them [ __ ] yell at each other, we >> It's also a time thing, I think, when people have a very short period of time.
59:40It inevitably becomes that. If you ever see uh Pierce uh doing long form interviews, some of them are incredible. >> Oh, sure. I'm not even talking about him. I'm talking about his >> Yeah, the model. Yeah. Yeah. No, I get it. >> Yeah, I can slack off Pierce. It's no problem. You douchebag. No. Um yeah, the model I agree that model is is what it does is it attracts attention.
Attention, podcasts, and child stars
1:00:01But I think once you've watched it, I think it was actually our mutual friend Chris Williamson told me about this. He said there's a thing you know that postnut clarity. Yes. >> This post content clarity. >> Oh yeah. >> And when you watch something that's outrage porn, >> you get that postcontent like why have I spent 15 minutes watching, you know?
1:00:23>> Yeah. I try not to I when I see people like, you know, destroyed this guy on this like >> I don't want that in my life. I'm not interested. If some if something's particularly interesting, someone will send it to me. So this is my filtration system now for online content. If some a friend doesn't send it to me that I think is a cool and interesting friend, I don't read it.
1:00:43>> Yeah. >> So most of what I get unless I'm on the toilet, I'm getting from my if I'm on the toilet, I will just give >> the toilet is where bad things happen. >> I will give in and go whatever. >> But it's made my life infinitely better. >> Yeah. Infinitely. >> But the the the issue is the incentives are baked all the way through.
1:00:59Like when I I wrote my book, Uneducated, I remember people saying to me, "Oh, are you going to write about the culture wars and education?" and talking about, you know, what the how the culturals affected you in your classroom. I was like, mate, I was teaching in a in a [ __ ] ghetto in East London. We didn't have time to talk about decolonization cuz you can't do it.
1:01:19You can't do it. How are you going to talk about decolonization when a kid's throwing a chair at your head? >> You know what I mean? But it would have been And then when you go and promote the book, people like, "Well, did you talk about trans in the classroom?" I'm like, "No, mate. I was trying just to have a lesson."
1:01:34Yeah. But the moment you know that you're going to forsake a large part of what of outrage, you know, interest in in what you do because you're not playing that game, right? >> And you're forsaking the clips for that. >> Yeah, but who cares? It's like that's not what you're into anyway. It's like if you run a vegetarian restaurant and you're that's what your thing is.
1:01:58I have the look of a man who who runs a vegetarian restaurant. >> But you don't get upset if someone else is, you know, making money selling steak. Like that's what they do. If you wanted to sell steak, you'd sell steak. >> Yeah. >> Not that's a bad comparison cuz what you guys do is better. It's like you're the steak.
1:02:13>> We're the steak. >> Yeah. It's like someone's out there buying vegan burgers and getting really sick. >> No, it's And that's what we try to do. It's, you know, you realize, I know it sounds kind of hacky, but you when your platform goes to a size like we're about to hit 2 million subscribers now, and you do an interview, you think, "Oh, fuck."
1:02:31Like, we've got a real responsibility here. >> If somebody says something that is actually, you know, that you think isn't right, it's your duty to challenge him. It's also your duty to, you know, to make sure that the interview is prepped properly so that when they have their arguments, you can go, "Well, actually, what about this?
1:02:50What about that? >> Right? >> All of these things because you realize what you're putting out into the world. It it matters. People are going to consume it and they're going to take it as fact. >> Yeah, it does matter. And if you abandon that feeling of responsibility just because you want the outrage clicks.
1:03:08It's like you're just a part of the problem. >> Yeah. I mean, you got to be able to have conversations with people. And this this is why I push back against the idea that people have a shorter attention span than ever. Like, do they though? I feel like they're the just people. I feel like people are just people.
1:03:22I don't think I'm unique. >> I think I like listening to audiobooks because I think they're interesting and I think I'm not alone. I think they're very popular. They sell a lot of audio books. It's one of the big reasons why Spotify got into podcasting is because their audiobook uh sales or or streams rather.
1:03:41>> They were a lot of people were streaming audiobooks. They're like, "Wow, a lot of people just didn't they don't just want music. Let's get into other things." People like to be informed and and have their brain excited. It's good. And you can have it excited in a negative way, like get outraged. That's a problem.
1:03:56It can hijack your concentration in that way. It can hijack your attention. But also, what's more fulfilling is getting your brain stimulated in a positive way or at least an intriguing way, something that like really makes you think about things. I love when I listen to a podcast, I listen to a conversation and I carry that thought with me like I'll shut the the radio off and I'm driving.
1:04:20I'm like, "Wow, okay." And I'll just contemplate and think about things, you know, and I think there's I'm not alone. This is not a unique thing that I have. I think there's millions of people out there like that. They're just that desire is not being fulfilled. So, it gets their attention gets hijacked by horseshit.
1:04:38>> Well, and and I think the direction of travel is clear. I mean a lot of people in our space like to be oh TV's dead. Well, if you look at the absolute numbers that they are way up here, right, than collectively than than than YouTube and podcast, but the direction of travel is only one way from here.
1:04:55They're going to go down. We're going to go up. I think >> do you think that the the views on television are higher than the views on like say YouTube? I don't even think that's >> interesting. I >> YouTube is infinitely more popular than any television show. Yeah, but it's not all like most of the views on YouTube are like guys kids un unboxing toys and you know guys going camp.
1:05:17There's I I discovered this channel the other day called Outdoor Studios. Are you familiar? Or Outdoor Boys Outdoor? >> Yeah. Yeah. Guys, I think he stopped doing it. >> He stopped doing it. I was like this guy he 20 million subscribers. Every video is like 90 million views. And he just was like, "Yeah, I don't want to do this anymore."
1:05:32>> Well, I think the popularity thing is overwhelming and the like fame it freaks you out. And I think he probably reads the comments unfortunately. And uh he was just a regular guy that's really into survival, >> you know, stuff and doing amazing contact and he seems like a really nice guy. >> Seems like a lovely guy.
1:05:49I think maybe the one thing that that pushed him in that direction just doesn't just watching it is he kind of got his family involved. So a lot of it would be like him with the kids going to places. And I imagine if you never fully signed up for 20 million subscriber fame, >> right? and you're a 5-year-old or a 10-year-old or now you're an 18-year-old, that's a whole different ballgame.
1:06:11>> Yeah. >> And that's probably extremely disconcerting and unpleasant. >> Well, I don't think that's wise. I don't think that's wise at all to do that. Yeah. I mean, when I see people getting their children involved in their television shows, I'm like, "Please don't do that." >> Yeah. >> So, like, you're you're you're you didn't ask them and they're going to have to go to school and then deal with the consequences of it and all the [ __ ] that come.
1:06:30I mean, it's pretty straightforward show. other guy's just like, you know, camping in a [ __ ] igloo. No big deal. But even then, you're still exposing yourself to schizophrenics and crazy people and the the world the whole world out there. >> Yeah. And also as well, number one, they can't consent because they're too young.
1:06:50So, they don't understand actually what it means to consent to something like that and what are going to be the long-term implications. >> But also, it's just weird. It does get it takes you a while when people come up to you and they go, "Oh, I feel I know you >> and you go, you obviously don't." But I, as an adult, I can rationalize that.
1:07:10Imagine what it must be like as a kid. >> Well, that's the real problem with child stars, right? They all get [ __ ] up. Like I've become friends with Zack Efron lately. Uh he's been coming to the club. Very nice guy. but talks openly about it. Like just like becoming famous when you're young, when like you're really young, you're a kid.
1:07:26It's just so [ __ ] up for you. I can't I liken it to when you make cement and you don't put all the ingredients in and then it kind of forms, but you can never fix it. So, it's never fully formed. >> And I think this is an issue with I've met a lot of child actors that became adults and every one of them was [ __ ] up.
1:07:49Um, McCaulay Kulkin was probably the least [ __ ] up, oddly, but he he talks openly about the struggles that he's had. >> And what is it that makes somebody really struggle with life having been famous as a kid? Like >> you get adored for no reason, right? You're you're six and everybody loves you. You're supposed to earn that, right?
1:08:08You're supposed to have it from your family and then the way you behave is supposed to dictate how people treat you in the real world >> and what you're good at. So like maybe if you're good at art or you're good at music, people are like, "Jimmy, I love how you play guitar." And then so then people like you for that and then you like you want more of that.
1:08:26So you work really hard and then you go through this whole process of becoming an adult and dating and girls don't like you just cuz you're on the cover of Team Beat. They like you because hopefully they think you're attractive looking and then they think you're funny or you're smart or you're nice to them and then you go on a date and you guys jive and it's a learning process and you don't go through that at all when you're a 9-year-old and you're on the set of a television show that's in your name and
1:08:55then everyone around you is catering to you. Everyone's kissing your ass. Tommy, can we get you anything? Would you like a juice? Would you like anything? Like everybody loves you. Nobody is telling you you have to do something. you have to do this, you have to do that. Nobody's punishing you. Nobody's Nobody is like bullying you at school.
1:09:10It's like your world is weird. >> And people tolerate your shitty behavior, I imagine. >> 100%. You could throw temper tantrums and [ __ ] smash windows and they I mean that's why rock stars [ __ ] tear apart hotel rooms. Why they do that? Cuz they can. >> They go into that hotel room just [ __ ] throw a TV through THE WINDOW.
1:09:29WOO! ROCK AND ROLL. I MEAN, it's in it's in all these movies, right? Why they do that? Because they're out of their [ __ ] minds. because there's no guardrails and to have no guard rails as you're growing up and to also be completely wealthy by the time you're 10, you know, and then usually the parents are involved in some sort of a shitty scenario.
1:09:49Like I have a friend who's a child actor and his parents stole money from him and he didn't find out until he's an adult like millions of dollars from him >> and he's had like this [ __ ] up relationship with them anyway and then he found out that they were they were mishandling his money and stealing from That would be so horrible.
1:10:06>> He suspected it though. He was like, "Oh yeah, what?" >> It's one of the things that happens when people see you being successful and you have money or they think you have money. Suddenly like all these people emerge out of everywhere who've got like these amazing ideas >> for how to convert your money into their money.
1:10:20You know, there brilliant ideas for that >> and there's a lot of them. >> I Yeah. I I get confronted all the time with stupid ideas and I just I don't invest in anything. I'm like that's the best way for me to just diffuse it all. like I'm not interested. >> I'm not buying that. >> And also with the child star thing is you have all of this success which is more success than the vast majority of people will ever encounter in their life.
1:10:44>> Mhm. >> And you're done by the time you're 16 because you fundamentally changed the way you look. >> So you you've now become an adolescent with all you know the awkwardness and the horrificness that goes through all of our teenage years. >> Yeah. >> Yet you look back at a time when everybody loved you and now no one does.
1:11:01>> Yeah. You peak at 15, but imagine being like Tuton Common became the pharaoh of Egypt at nine. >> Oh, what? You're running Egypt. >> What? Huh? >> Yeah, he wasn't really running. It was like Joe Biden. >> Well, he was he seemed comprom. >> Yeah, >> it seemed like he might be inbred or two in common.
1:11:23>> Yeah, there was something wrong with him. He was very odd. >> Sorry, I'm choking on something. Yeah, I think um analysis of his uh bones, I think they said that he he might have he might have suffer. I think that's some speculation. People try not to be offensive when they talk about that, but obviously inbreeding amongst royal families is not a unique thing.
King Tut, ancient history, and Genghis Khan
1:11:46It's not like what wait a minute, you know, like and so the possibility that he was inbred here. One of the most striking things about Tutonama was his parentage. 2010 DNA study concluded that his parents were probably brother and sister. The researchers identify his father as most likely Pharaoh Akenatan and his mother as an unnamed money as an unnamed mummy known as the younger lady and that was probably his sister.
1:12:12The body uh differed from the idealized royal image. Researchers reported a club foot and damage to bones in his foot suggesting that he had difficulty walking. Walking sticks found in his tomb support that interpretation. Uh these are medical interpretations of ancient remains rather than a complete certain picture of his health.
1:12:31He became king around age nine, died around 18 or 19. Exact cause of death remains uncertain. Researchers detected malaria parasite DNA and proposed that malaria, bone problems, and a fractured leg may have contributed to not any single cause was conclusively established. Apparently, um the reason why they found his tomb versus uh all the other pharaoh tombs that had long been looted was that he was uh very disrespected and that once they uh buried him and they put him in his tomb, they covered it with rubble
1:13:09so that no one could visit it. They were like, "Fuck this guy." Like, "Yeah, we did what we had to do, but let's just cover the whole thing with rubble." That's one of the one of the one of the pieces of speculation. >> That's so funny. There's so many guys in history who are like, "I'm going to build an empire.
1:13:21I'm going to call. No one knows that name. >> This dude was a [ __ ] king. >> I know. He's a [ __ ] king. 9 years old. And that's the one that everybody thinks about when you think about an Egyptian pharaoh. You think about King Tut >> because they found his tomb intact. >> So the real question is what happened to all of those other tombs and is where is all that gold?
1:13:41Where where are all those? I mean, if if that guy had such an elaborate burial and he was a [ __ ] king, like what you know, what did what did Ramsay's what did his pharaoh what what did what did that guy's burial look like? >> I mean, >> well, it's been like 6,000 years, right? Or ancient Egypt is 6,000 years ago >> at least.
1:14:04>> At least >> there's a lot of real weird stuff when it comes to that. Real weird, you know. Um, there's also the the actual kings list, what they the Zeppi kings list in in Egypt that it's super weird because it goes back 30 plus thousand years and they want to talk about that as if it's myth and then it gets to a certain age where it's agreed upon that this is the the time in which these dynasties existed that people accept.
1:14:29And so this is very it's very weird stuff and you I think you have to really understand hieroglyphs to be able to even comment on it. So, I'm not going to. But one of the weird things about it is the ages of the older people. The people from 30 plus thousand years ago, they're like living 200,000 years, 50,000 years.
1:14:47It's very odd. They reign for a long time. And that aligns with the Samrian kings list, too, which is also super [ __ ] strange. The Sumerian kings list has the same sort of properties where you have accepted historical figures that are later that live a normal lifespan, but then when you go way way back, you have kings that are ruling for 35,000 years.
1:15:15>> Isn't it the same in the Bible where it's all like way extended? And so, isn't is that maybe just a like a language thing or like a calculation? >> It's probably a bunch of things, right? the the real problem is you have uh cuniform right so you have the ancient Samrian writing so there's not like a language issue then because you have them detailing the ages of the people that are historically accurate where we know that they existed the real problem is like what were they talking like in
1:15:45the Bible like when Noah was 600 years old okay what is a year to you like what does that mean right is it every is every season a year is it an actual calendar here. Do you have a Gregorian calendar? Like what are you what are you using? >> Cuz they used to use a different calendar entirely in ancient history used to use a 13 lunar cycle calendar.
1:16:06So it was a 13-month calendar. It was a 28 day calendar, which is 364 days. So they would have to have a leap year every now and then. But when you think about that, that actually kind of makes more sense because that really does align with the cycles. But somewhere along the line, they decided to make it 12 months.
1:16:23And some months are 31 days and some months are 28 days. Like what? Like what what happened here? Like what? So it's like what do you mean when you say he's 600 years old? You know, did you just mean he's old as [ __ ] You see Noah like that dude's like a [ __ ] million years old. Like like how old's my dad?
1:16:40My dad's 150,000 years old >> and and he [ __ ] hates this. You know, like you know what I mean? Like people talk in a certain like the whole 72 virgins thing, right? You know, when they say you get 72 virgins when you make yourself a martyr, they don't mean the number 72. It's like saying, you know, oh, I got a million friends.
1:16:57It's just a lot. They're just saying a lot. It's like a substitute for a lot. >> You know, one of the interesting things is when when you actually go to Egypt is genuinely how much we don't know about that about about their civilization, the engineering, how they constructed the pyramids. I remember I went to the temple of Abu Simbel.
1:17:16I don't know if you've ever seen this temple. It's huge. It's absolutely massive. And at the there's a certain point in time >> during the day where there is a beam of light that comes into the temple and a lights I think it's at the altar. >> Mhm. >> They So they did that specifically. That was a choice that they made and they designed the temple for that to happen.
1:17:39And you go, well, how did they do that? >> Yeah. It's super sophisticated engineering and um it's also at a scale when when you're dealing with how far they moved the stone, >> how they quarried the stone, what tools they use. There's also really clear evidence of ancient tool use. >> Um and not just tool use, but high-speed drills.
1:18:02Um some sort of uh unknown technology that seems to be able to scoop sections out of rock. Um, it looks like it was moving far quicker than what they would achieve with copper and sand and friction and all the different theories that people have proposed to how they did it. It doesn't make any sense.
1:18:21It doesn't make any sense. And I think it's way older than they think it is. I think it's way way way older. And I think um one of the first uh people to propose that was Dr. Robert Shock from Boston University. He's a geologist and he looked at the weathering of the the temple where the sphinx is carved out of and he said this is water erosion like thousands of years of water erosion has led to these deep fissures on the sides of these walls.
1:18:52And then the furthest back you get where you have rainfall like heavy rainfall in the Nile Valley, you got to go like 9,000 years. So that's 9,000 years and then you have to deal with thousands of years of rainfall to achieve that. So when was it actually built? It might be 10,000 years old, might be 12,000 years old.
1:19:10It also might be newer than some of the other stuff that's there, which is even crazier. And then you have the stuff that's underground and you go, "Hey, like what?" like the the the things that they know about like the labyrinths that they they've discovered that there these that Herodotus wrote about that these enormous labyrinths that he said was greater than the spectacle of Giza like greater than the pyramids he said underground was even more preposterous >> you know and going back to our religious
1:19:39conversation I never knew this so I went to an exhibition at the British Museum where they were talking about the ancient Greek Empire took over the ancient Egyptian Empire and there was a fusion of the two and What they had at one point was the Greeks who were living in Egypt worshiping their gods and the Egyptians worshiping their gods and the elites then turned around and went, "You know what?
1:20:01We've got a major problem here. If we don't actually do something to help bind society together, we're going to have a civil war." So, they artificially created gods that both sections could worship. >> Which gods? I can't remember the name of the gods, but um >> they've made up some gods and everybody's like, "Oh, >> yeah.
1:20:21>> Thank god you found the bridge, >> you know, and it's a kind of a genius like solution cuz you could still worship your Greek gods. They could still worship their Egyptian gods, but there was a gods in the middle that everyone could worship." >> Well, that's a age-old tactic, right? >> I mean, this is sort of how Constantine pushed Christianity through Rome, >> you know?
1:20:40It's like got to bring everybody on the same page. This is people have always done this. Whereas the Mongols had a totally different approach. Genghaskhan said, "I don't give a [ __ ] what your religion is. Come on board. >> Just pay taxes and don't [ __ ] around. >> Pay taxes. Don't [ __ ] around. Let's kill folks."
1:20:57>> He didn't care what you believed in. He didn't give a [ __ ] >> Very tolerant. Genghaskhan. >> Yes. Very tolerant. It's It's really interesting. Dan Carlin had this great take on him where he was he was saying that if you historians today talk about Genghaskhan as like Genghaskhan there was a lot of positive aspects to his empire and one of the things that he opened up trade to the east >> like right also killed 10% of the population like it's kind of crazy that one of the biggest mass murderers in the
1:21:30history of the human race documented is also thought about in the positive impacts that he had on civilization. >> Well, it's funny. I took my dad to Isbekistan because my dad would grew up in Isbekistan and I lived in Isbekistan for four years. So, we did like a father and son trip there. When you get to Beckistan, you get to Tash Tash Kent.
1:21:48Right in the heart of the city, there's this giant statue of Tamilain Tim. He see most people don't even know who the guy was. He was basically like a mini Gangghis Khan. >> And they c they're not decolonializing that [ __ ] They're like, "This is what this is our boy, you know." Uh, and by the way, that dude, he was as vicious.
1:22:09And his empire stretched as far as Constantinople on the one side to China to Russia to India at one point. It just didn't last as long because he was a badass and most of his descendants were not. But he controlled this giant swave of the of the of the Central Asia in particular. And uh in Samarand they still have his tomb that the tomb is there.
1:22:32And there's a story I I don't know if I told you this before. Do you remember about the the Soviet the German invasion of the Soviet Union? Did I tell you this before? >> Maybe. >> Um basically uh Soviet archaeologists were opening about to open this tomb and all the locals were like don't don't touch it.
1:22:48Don't touch it cuz on the tomb it said whoever opens this tomb will unleash a conqueror greater than I. They opened it and the next day Hitler invaded Soviet Russia. >> Whoa. The next day. >> The next day. >> I think you did tell me this. >> Yeah, I probably did. >> That's crazy. >> June 22nd, 1941, Operation Barbarasa.
1:23:11Here's the interesting bit as well. >> The Battle of Stalenrad was the turning point in the war. So, Soviet Union, I don't know if you remember this, but the Soviet Union was basically getting its ass kicked for the first uh year and a half of the war. Uh absolutely steamrolled. Million men armies surrendering on mass.
1:23:28The Germans were kicking ass. They got as far as the gates of Moscow. If you go to Moscow, there's these three giant tank traps outside. That's how close the Germans came. And a lot of historians actually argue that if Hitler had taken Moscow, which he was very capable of doing if he if he didn't make mistakes, that would have been it because Stalin stayed in Moscow.
1:23:49And so Stalin would have been captured, probably killed, and the Soviet Union would have lost the war. Anyway, fast forward to the Battle of Stalingrad. The archaeologist eventually thought, you know what, we've dug this up. We should have opened it. And they gave him a proper Islamic burial, put him back in the tomb, covered everything up and the next day that was the pivotal day in the battle of Stalenrad.
1:24:10And from then on, the Soviet Union basically pushed forward and won the war. >> Simulation theory, >> right? In effect, >> it's insane, man. But I I you know what, Beckistan, you talk about spreading trade and stuff. It was that part of the world at that time. If you go there today, I loved going there as a tourist because it's kind of like the Muslim Rome.
1:24:30It's just this like incredibly beautiful testament to the greatness of their civilization at one point. Um these beautiful madrasas, beautiful mosques, gigantic. Absolutely gigantic. People are really friendly. Food is amazing. It was a really cool place to go. I really liked going back there. >> Well, I think one of the things that set back the Islamic world hu in a huge way was Genghaskhan invading Iraq.
1:24:56>> How so? I >> when he invaded Well, I don't even think it was Iraq back then. What was it? Mesopotamia. Yeah. So >> Baghdad, they took the Mongols took Baghdad and the the river flowed red with blood. The way they describe it, they just slaughtered everybody. They they they knocked civilizations back to the stone age.
1:25:14There's a famous story that Dan Carlin talks about. It's one of the scariest ones of the uh Shaw of Corisma sent uh an envoy to go to visit Jin, China. And as he's making his way to Jin, China, they see what they think is a snowcapped mountain in the distance that as they get closer, it turns out to be a pile of bones and that Genghaskhan had arrived before they got there and killed everyone in the town, everyone in in the city and stacked their bones on over a million people stacked their
1:25:47bones on top of each other. >> Wow. And then they had abandoned their carts along the way because the the roads had become so degraded from rotting human flesh. So rotting human flesh had turned everything into mud. So there were so many dead rotting bodies in the road that they couldn't get their carts through.
1:26:05They couldn't get the wheels to turn through the sludge of dead humans. >> Maybe not that tolerant then. >> Yeah. Let up trade the West. You know, that's why we love interviewing historians so much on our show because when you talk to historians, you go, "Oh, number one, what we're going through, like people have been going through this since year, do >> you just get to understand so much more, not only about your society, but also about yourself and human nature and who we are as people."
1:26:38Like, you know, we always talk, oh, these are unprecedented times. Nothing like this has happened before. But you go through history and you talk to a historian and like well it's kind of similar to 1823 when you look about it because A B CDE E and F or whatever it may be you're going all right and that that gives there's a calmness that comes from that.
1:26:57>> Yeah. People have always been [ __ ] up like always and it's you know I've talked about this a bunch of times. I apologize if you guys have heard it. Um but I've been reading this I finished it this Alan Watts book called The Age of Insecurity. uh and it's about the 1950s and it it's essentially he's talking about how societyy's changing so quickly because of technology and culture shifting radically and people are so anxious.
1:27:19He's talking about this in 1952, I believe it was, and you read it and it applies totally today and you realize like, oh, there's never been a time where everybody's like, "Life is great." And then we have this nostalgic view back to those days go, "Oh, back in those days when I was a boy, the milkman came and he delivered your milk and everything was beautiful and everybody believed in God and there was no problems."
1:27:41No, there's always been problems. People have always been people. People are messy and sloppy and crazy and they're always going to cause chaos. And as long as there have been people, there have been problems. And this is just a much more aware version of society than ever before. And maybe propagandized and maybe confused because of the internet, >> but also a lot better.
1:28:02I mean, if you look at we can talk about, you know, Gen Z and not as resilient and all of that [ __ ] which is true, >> but also the way we're raising children now. Like when I think about the way my parents and grandparents were raised in the Soviet Union, >> like animals, >> right? >> Right. Right.
Iran war, oil, and escalation
1:28:20You know, >> like you you a 5-year-old did something they didn't know not to do. Get a [ __ ] beating for just for that. Right. And that that was normal. >> Yeah. >> Completely normal. And think how we understand a lot more about the impact of [ __ ] like that now. >> And that's why we we don't do it.
1:28:36Um so in the world has improved in so many ways but we are in the age of anxiety and insecurity because I mean you say Francis you know all of this has happened before. I think AI is a different level >> it's a different level of challenge to humanity >> that's going to hypercharge everything. It's it's going to be very very very very weird really soon and maybe sooner than we'd like.
1:29:03>> Yeah. I'm a little concerned um about what might happen post midterm. And one of the rumblings that I'm hearing post is after the midterms, the United States might start attacking Iran again. I don't know if this is true or if this is just speculation, but good lord, I hope it's not true. So, I don't know what it is, but I'm really concerned because this whole Iran thing is like we're at war, but no one talks about it anymore.
1:29:30It's been this like stagnated thing in the media. And what is going on with the straight of Hormoose? Like boats are getting through, but they have to be ushered, you know, they have to be guided by battleships and [ __ ] And like are they fighting off people all the time? I I hear they are I hear people are trying to attack these battleships all the time.
1:29:49So like what what happens after the midterms? Because right if they did it right now, they'd get crushed in the midterms. >> And there's a lot of speculation they're already going to lose in the midterms. So if that if they're waiting until after that's over before they do this, things can get real ugly.
1:30:04>> Well, you got Sorry, go ahead. >> I was going to say, well, you you say that I take that and I raise what's happened in the UK. Uh our defense minister came out in when he was speech. I can't remember the exact context of where the speech was being uh held, but he was talking about how we need to start how British people need to start stockpiling.
1:30:27He did say let's he said three days worth of whatever. But it kind of makes sense because our infrastructure is very vulnerable. Uh we haven't built a lot of the [ __ ] that we should be should have been building because we're very green and all of this other stuff. >> But isn't 3 days the modern version of two weeks to stop the spread.
1:30:43>> Right. Right. >> You know what I mean? >> And um Joe, before we do run, can I have a piss? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Let's we'll pause. We'll pause. We'll be right back, ladies and gentlemen. >> Um so where were we? We were on Iran talking about Iran. Uh, >> are we back on air now or not? >> Yeah, we're back on air.
1:30:58>> Okay, cool, cool, cool. Let me just do this. >> Here you go, Matt. Do you want to do that? >> Uh, I've already I'm doing the triangle, I think. >> Okay. >> Nothing like three white guys talking about geopolitics. >> Why' you have to racialize this one? >> That's going to be one of the comments. >> You have to today.
1:31:18You have to today. Today it's very Is that working? >> No, it's I think it's dead. Yeah. I'm filling the sucker up. I'll give you this two two seconds. Um, geopolitics is actually that's not really correct. When I read the original term of geopolitics, it's sort of wildly used to talk about different countries, but it's really about like resources and geology, which makes sense.
1:31:41Like what is the act pull that up? What is the actual original term of geopolitics? I'm pretty sure It's wasn't originally about like how countries get along with each other. I think it was about resources and about like uh you know geo >> I mean you can argue that the resources is how about how countries interact with each other right >> study of how geography right >> such as a country's location borders natural resources and accesses to ocean influences political power.
1:32:19>> See we don't think about it that way we think about it as like the relations between countries. Yeah. >> And actually, I think we we're living in a time where people totally forget that geography very much affects I've got it. Thanks, brother. >> Geography very much affects how countries behave. And >> it's the real thing.
1:32:35>> It's the real thing. >> Why we love Ukraine so much? Does it nothing to do with the fact they're on trillions of dollars in minerals? >> Yeah. >> Nothing. >> Well, and for Russia, the reason they feel so passionate about it is, I think we've talked about this before, 80% of all the [ __ ] that matters in Russia is in the western most 20% of the country.
1:32:53So Russia always tries to expand westwards to expand its buffer zone and that's basically what has historically happened every time they've been strong. So invading Ukraine is a kind of expected thing for them to do as well. But coming back to Iran, I mean the geography of Iran is what this is all about.
1:33:13Uh because it seems like from the conversations we've had with people um the administration got a little carried away here. Uh they >> the American administration, how dare you come to my country and tell us we're doing things wrong. [ __ ] >> I'm not sure about wrong, but um uh the >> Yeah, I think they thought it was going to be like Venezuela.
1:33:35>> That's exactly what they thought. >> This is the same mistake they made from Operation Desert Storm, you know, to when when we went in in the 1990s in Iraq, it was quick and easy. Bang, bang, got it done. Kick some ass. So when the 2000s came around after 9/11 and we went back into Iraq, I don't think anybody expected it was going to be this prolonged [ __ ] show that it became.
1:33:59I think the people supported it because they thought, yeah, well, they're doing it. That's how 9/11 happened. Let's go in there and kick some ass. And then it's like, oh my god, we're there 20 years later. What the [ __ ] is this? >> But it's also this idea that you could bring democracy to Iraq. You know, a country that has never had democracy that doesn't understand it.
1:34:16Yeah. U democracy. Hey guys, we got this magic system. Everyone's going to go, "Yeah, that's great." And then what? We're going to They're all going to live in paradise. >> And definitely there won't be any corruption. That's really important. When a country comes in and [ __ ] hangs your leader on television, you know, afterwards, everybody's cool.
1:34:43>> Well, this is the interesting thing with with with Iran, right? because there were people so right last time we were here it was right around the time that the war started. >> Yeah. >> And then we had this guy called Robert Pipe on the show. I don't know if you've seen his stuff. He's a he's a military air power analyst and he basically said exactly how it would going to how it was going to go.
1:35:05>> This is before the invasion. >> Yeah. Yeah. And we just we we we just had him on just now to talk about it and u he he calls it the escalation trap and he talks about how effectively America trapped itself in this situation particularly with Austral. And actually his argument is now look I'm not I can't judge whether it's true or false but so far everything he said to us worked out is this is put Iran on the path to become a regional hegeimon.
1:35:33They are now going to be in a position where they're way more powerful than they were before this conflict started. >> How so? >> Because they are they have been given the legitimacy to block the straight off from us >> and they are now becoming more powerful against Saudi Arabia, the UAE who are their primary opponents and also Israel.
1:35:52>> Uh they control a lot of the oil uh and where that goes and the Houthies as well. The problem is the Saudis have this pipeline that goes to the Red Sea. So the idea is you don't need the strap from you, you can go around it, but the Houthies are bombing the [ __ ] out of that pipeline right now. >> Uh so it's um it's a trap.
1:36:07It it was a trap according to his analysis and that's why coming back to your point, the war isn't over and you have to find a way to resolve it. And his argument was you got to get out of this as quickly as possible or it's going to get worse and worse and worse and worse. And you see that now where Iran is in a position we they've basically got a like they've got uh the global economy in a rear naked choke.
1:36:37That's that's what that's why gas prices are what they are. That's what diesel prices are what they are. It's why you know Trump talks about oh you know Zilinski is it's not Zilinski bombing Russian refineries that's causing the the diesel price to get to this point. The war in in Ukraine's been going on for 4 years.
1:36:53But it the price started really going up when the war in Iran started. And this is where all these problems are coming from. And Iran can do this as long as they want. It hurts them too. But his argument is they can carry on doing this because for them it's about survival. It's like Russia in 1941. You're taking casualties, millions of people being captured.
1:37:14But you're for you this is about survival. You know Trump's got the midterms to worry about. You know after the midterms he's not going to have the House, may not have the Senate. He's going to be up to his eyeballs in investigations, congressional committees, impeachment proceed, all of that [ __ ] >> So, this war has now put America in a weaker position or its leaders, maybe not America, but its leaders in a weaker position.
1:37:39That means you've got more leverage. And you can see in the rhetoric now with, like I said, the Zilinski thing and all the rest of it, there's a lot of flailing about. There's a lot of flailing about trying desperately to get gas prices down. And Iran knows this. They're not dumb. They're watching this and going, "Every day that this goes on, we've got more leverage."
1:37:59>> And it's in their interest to carry on that until they get the deal they want, which is get American bases out of the Middle East entirely. >> Well, they've already [ __ ] up the American bases in the Middle East to a point where it's going to take decades to fix them, right? >> Is that right? >> So, we were reading I don't know what do I know, but they have bombed bases where American troops have.
1:38:21It's more than 20 of them. We we pulled it up the number the other day. It was a it's a large number and you got to think like how much destruction like we're we're not seeing videos where they're detailing all the different things that happened. And from what I hear it's pretty extensive. And the problem with this these this asymmetrical warfare, the problem with drone bombing, the problem with all this stuff is that it's like regular counter measures don't seem to work.
1:38:48You know, like what they figured out in Ukraine where they're using the monofilament line to control these drones, so you can't even use anti- drone weapons, it's like you're almost exposed. And so if you have an air base and like the attack that the Ukrainians did on the Russians where they blew up all those planes, >> like that's kind of wild that you can go in there and do billions of dollars worth of damage in one night.
1:39:11It's like this is a different world we're living in. We're not living in a world where just you have to launch missiles. They see the missiles coming, they shoot them out of the sky with the Iron Dome. That's not the It's not the same thing anymore. Drone technology has changed everything. >> One of the things that I love about our job is that we get to meet so many interesting people either because they've been on the show or just because their friends are friends.
1:39:33I was talking to an ex- special forces guy and I said to him, "Could we put I said, "I don't agree with this, but could we put boots on the ground in Iran?" And he just laughed. He went, "Let's take all the politics out of it." He goes, "Nobody would agree to that because the terrain is so mountainous.
1:39:50How are you going to achieve that? It's it's impossible. You're not going to do that." And he and he also said to me, I think Robert Pope echoed this, "There has never been a regime change achieved solely through air strikes. It doesn't happen." So you go, "Well, what how is this going to evolve? How is this going to actually evolve?
1:40:12Does does anybody know? Is this just vibes? Is there a bigger plan? What's going to happen? Because >> what do you mean by is it just vibes? >> Is it by vibes is like did they actually think this through? Did they think if this actually happened, A could happen, B could happen, C could happen? And if A could happen, what's our strategy for A?
1:40:33If B could happen, what's our strategy for B? If C could happen, what's or or were they just like basically high off Venezuela and they were like, hey, we smashed Maduro. Let's go in. Well, it's also how much does Trump know about how this all could possibly play out if they started bombing Iran and what was he told >> and what did he how did he manage the information that he got or how did the people get access to him or not get access to him because that's also part of this conversation.
1:41:03The same with this is why Vladimir Putin is 4 years deep into a three-day mil special military operation in Ukraine >> cuz he was told you're going to go in there. We're going to get Zilinski out. We're going to land paratroopers in hostel. Uh land all our [ __ ] Everybody's and the people are going to rise up and and support us, which is exactly what they said about Iran, by the way, right?
1:41:25Take out the leader, the people will rise up, take over and whatever. Um and it seems to be that that's not how it works. And quite often you get these situations from what we are told where not all of the information is presented equally. There is not the process of deliberation that I think we'd all hope >> there is for decisions of this magnitude.
1:41:47>> It's more like Francis said, Venezuela event went very well. >> We're on a roll. What's next? M >> you know and that sounds shocking and simplistic and whatever but that is literally what people we have spoken to who who are close to to the decision-m process have told us. >> Well, it's also very enticing if you're a guy who wants to leave his mark on history to be the guy who took down the evil Iranian regime.
1:42:13>> You know, we took down Venezuela, you know, and then you you can go in there and have that too as your list of accomplishments. And if someone's blowing enough smoke up your ass and if you believe it, and we all know that Israel tried to get a bunch of different presidents to try to do the same thing.
1:42:32>> I mean, they tried to do it with the Obama administration. They tried to do a lot of administrations. Like, why don't we do this? And they were like, h, I don't like it. >> Which which is for me, that's why the ultimate responsibility rests with the people who who pull the trigger, right? Cuz everyone's going to present you with all kinds of information.
1:42:48Um, >> and it's within, you know, Israel's interest to to do it. I mean, they they would like us to do that. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think I think that's true. And I think that's where there's a divergence between the foreign policy interest of Israel and the foreign policy interest of the United States and the world, right?
1:43:04And everybody I understand why different countries pursue their own interest, but it's the job of the American presidential administration to do what's right for America. >> Yeah. How how crazy. What a wild thought. >> Yeah. Um, so it's complicated, but it it's having a massive uh impact economically across the world.
1:43:23Uh, and as bad as it is in the US, you are actually way more insulated from the consequences of this war than we are in the rest of the world. In Europe, uh, I have friends who are like farmers in Australia. They are really struggling to get diesel, >> you know, and same with, you know, the the European situation.
1:43:43Uh most countries have a lot of supply for like a year's worth. The UK has two months worth of diesel supply. >> Oh god. >> Yeah. So it's it's been a a big problem. And the reason you say they might strike again is cuz what else do you do? >> What? >> Right. Do you do you just let it keep stagnating?
1:44:03>> Well, >> like what do you do? Well, you or you have to I mean I thought the best way out here was for Trump to do what Trump does, which is to sell to sell a deal that he did with Iran. And that deal probably would have been worse than what was in place before cuz you just bomb the [ __ ] out of their country.
1:44:22They're angry, a little bit unhappy about that. But you do a deal with them and then you just go, "This is the greatest deal ever, you know." >> Right. Right. Right. Yeah. That would be nice. >> Yeah. >> Trump, if you're listening, >> that's the move. just say you won. We'll all we'll all go with you.
1:44:35We just don't want this to escalate. >> Yeah. >> You know, and then the the narrative is always they can't we can't allow Iran to have a nuclear weapon, which is okay. I agree with that. Doesn't seem like it'd be a good idea to have a a regime that kills their own citizens if they protest. It doesn't seem like they would be the kind of people that you would want to be able to just kill enormous groups of people with one missile.
1:44:58And that's really the question because I understand that logic which is why I understand the Israeli position which is like these guys want to kill us. We can't have them have a nuclear weapon. And I understand a lot of Americans would also agree with that. >> Of course >> the question is though was this the right strategy to achieve that outcome.
1:45:15>> Also was the question the question is were they really capable of doing that and were they they definitely were um enriching uranium past the point they needed for energy. >> Yeah. >> Right. but they weren't at the point where they needed it for nuclear weapons. And then converting it into nuclear weapons is a completely different ballgame.
1:45:32And Scott Horton laid that out on my podcast and I'll butcher it if I try to repeat it, >> but it was pretty complex and pretty and and he was pretty clear that they were nowhere near doing that. >> Also, hadn't the Ayatollah issued like a fatwa against the construction of nuclear weapons? >> Yeah, but the question is, >> what was that like?
1:45:52>> Well, right, how much do you trust the Ayatollah? I mean, stereotypically speaking, they don't seem to be entirely consistent what they say. My understanding is different on the nuclear weapons. >> I mean, with some things they are >> Yeah. beheading you for dancing. >> He you know, >> I'm very consistent on that.
1:46:08Uh but uh my understanding on on how easy it is to get I remember talking to my granddad who was an astrophysicist about this like it's not that hard to get from you've got enriched material to you've got a nuclear weapon. It doesn't take that long in today's world. The first one that took a lot of effort with the Manhattan project, but now that everybody knows how to do it.
1:46:28>> Well, this is why India and Pakistan got nuclear weapons. >> Right. >> Right. It wasn't they we thought that you'd have nuclear power. Great. And they're like, "Look what we figured out." >> Yeah. Miraculously. So, I totally understand the concern. I haven't heard a great explanation of how this conflict was supposed to achieve that.
1:46:47This is why the 12-day war made perfect sense to me. like you bomb their nuclear facilities, you see if you get it, that's the percentage play, right? >> Right. >> But this just I it doesn't seem I I no one ever explained how one would lead to the other, >> right? >> How doing this conflict this way would achieve non-nuclear run.
1:47:07In fact, it seems to me now inevitably if you are run, you you do everything you can to survive and then you do everything you possibly can to get a nuke as quickly as possible so that this can never happen again. >> Right. >> Yes. >> If you were Iran, that's what you would do. >> Yes. >> So, there's been a miscalculation it feels like to me here.
1:47:30And I'm not sure that when people say, "Well, you got to deal with Iran's nuclear threat." I agree with them. I'm just not sure this was the right way to do it. And it became very quickly apparent to us early on in this conflict that that was gonna >> What do you think could have been the right way to do it?
1:47:49>> If you ask Robert Pape, he says something like you've got to have regional balancing. So you got to strengthen Saudi Arabia and the UAE so there's some kind of balance in the region and no one wants to escalate the whole region to nuclear level. I don't know enough to say whether that's right or wrong.
1:48:04And I think that's the real big question here is how how are you supposed to get Iran to not have nuclear weapons? And maybe the truth here is Joe, once this thing has been invented, eventually people are going to get it. You know, Iran is not they're not some shitty little country in the middle of nowhere.
1:48:22It's a giant country which has control over a huge amount of its own natural resources but also then the the one of the biggest arteries in the world for energy and fertilizer and gas and plastic and all of that stuff. You know maybe the reality here is that you there's no way that you can maybe extend it, you can do deals, but ultimately they they are going to get them and that that's a terrible outcome.
1:48:46I but I haven't heard anyone convincingly explain how you avoid that. >> Yeah. Yeah. And and one of the things that's interesting as well is that you look at countries that have had an empire, you know, they still have this sense of pride and honor in themselves. Like you look at the Russians, you know, the Russians have had a great empire.
1:49:05You look at the Persians. I mean, you don't need to be historian to look and you know, the the Persian Empire was once very very powerful. So there is still something in their psyche where if they feel that they're being pushed around, it's not like a smaller country, but they there's still how dare you.
1:49:22This is the Persian Empire. This is where we came from. This is who we are, and we are going to fight you. >> Yeah, it's 90 million people. It's a bigger country than Britain. >> That's crazy. >> Our empire was speak. >> Yeah, it's it's disturbing to think that this could pop off after the midterms. It really is.
1:49:41It it's been bothering me a lot the last few days. >> Why does it bother you so much, Joe? >> Cuz I have a feeling that this uh preparing for uh you know, having food and water is there's a real concern. I have a feeling there's a real concern. And um if the power grid does get attacked and if we if cities do get bombed, it could get really [ __ ] crazy in this country.
1:50:04>> I don't think Iran is in a position to do to bomb America, though. I think that's probably >> well cyber attacks with the grid, but um sleeper cells like we we really have no idea how many people came in over the last four years and how many of them are in a terrorist cell and it's this is not right-wing speculation.
1:50:23You're just dealing with a number that is it's so massive, right? So the lowend number is 10 million. That's the low end >> in four years, right? >> In four years. And so some Republicans think the high end is over 20. We don't know. It's just pure speculation. There's the ones that they've counted. Secret Service cites heightened threat environment as air defense systems deployed at Mara Lago and airport.
1:50:47This today, >> yeah, >> surfacetoair missile systems have been deployed at Mara Lago and Donald Trump International Airport at the request of the US Secret Service. I didn't even know there was a Donald Trump International Airport. the spokesperson said the agency is operating in a heightened threat environment.
1:51:04Right. So, I think something's about to go down >> and um >> I mean all the the when you go super kooky, tighten up that tinfoil hat, people think that it's a false flag and that we, you know, this is so we will support this and that and I don't know, but uh I do know that if you keep [ __ ] around, one day you find out.
1:51:27And it seems like we've been [ __ ] around and it seems like they're telling us, hey, you might might want to store some food in case we have to find out. >> What's fascinating to me is how because we we don't live in the US, so we come here a couple of times a year. We see you. We do a bunch of interviews.
Protests, revolutions, and social discontent
1:51:40I remember being here two years ago on the eve of the presidential election and everybody in Austin was like, "You you guys are going to LA next park. No, no, there's going to be riots. It's going to be crazy. Do what you do." And we get there, the election happens, and it was so overwhelming because it was the presidency, the house, the senate, the college, the electoral college, the popular vote.
1:52:07>> There was nothing in LA. Everybody was chill because like America voted for this. Like that's that's what America did. >> Well, people were very upset. But I think one of the real issues in America when it comes to protests is they're organized and paid for. >> Yeah. >> No question. And there there was nothing to be gained by tearing up Los Angeles after the presidential election.
1:52:28>> That's a good point. >> There listen where's the protests about us bombing Iran? >> Where are those? If if protests are organic, most people are very unhappy with us going into Iran. But where are the protests? >> Well, there's no one organizing and paying for those protests, so they don't exist. >> That's interesting.
1:52:49Yeah, >> that that's I hadn't thought about that is actually legitimately a very good point. >> It's so hard for people on the left to accept this and and I have friends that are very left and I I talked to them about paid protesters and they push back and I'm like, "Listen, man, you just got to understand when you see those vans pull up and you see those signs come out and those signs are already printed out in advance and this is about an event that just happened 24 hours ago.
1:53:11What's the odds that someone's not paying for all this?" And then when you talk to people that actually say they are paid to protest. Yeah. >> And there's people that show up at every protest and those people make a living protesting a >> career now. >> This is a career. This is a real job. If you're a nerd dwell and you're also like you know sort of peripherally political like yeah man [ __ ] the fascist like you can you don't have to work.
1:53:37You could just go to protest and scream and yell and they give you a sign and now you have a job >> and it's a great place to meet girls which I imagine. >> Oh bet. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Not not for the long term. >> I actually saw A LADY I SAW there going to be a little unstable. >> If you're into mental instability who isn't but what is this Jamie?
1:53:59>> I just Googled protests about it and there was an article in Reuters about >> about the bombing in Iran. >> Yeah. Lots of protests. Lots of people died in other countries about it. >> Right. But in America >> Yeah. 145 different cities, >> right? What kind of demonstrations they had? I didn't see any of them.
1:54:10I didn't certainly didn't see them on the news. >> No. >> Were they small demonstrations? Like how many people were in these demonstrations? >> Oh, you had a map there, Jamie. Would you mind scrolling back up? >> Well, there's there's maps on this about a bunch of stuff and all right about >> But it's interesting.
1:54:25Okay, so there's ones with big signs that were printed out in advance clearly. Like look at all those signs all uniform. Like who got who made the signs? How'd you get them? United States flag upside down. That's interesting. So, I was wrong. Um, it just hasn't been in the news. I haven't seen it like the no kings protests were huge.
1:54:46>> Well, this is your point. It's about scale, right? Like you're not seeing it overwhelm the country in the same way like you had in 2020 for example. >> Right. That's But coming back to my point about going to LA two years ago, I remember the mood. We had Rob Schneider on the show like the day after the election.
1:55:02He was like really happy. the the mood was different. And I just wonder in an alternative reality if Trump does Venezuela and then doesn't do this or does Cuba next and it's like Venezuela and it's just like you lock down your your hemisphere. You you get the easy wins. It's a whole different legacy, >> right?
1:55:25>> Yeah. >> You know, >> it's it's basically Blair without Iraq. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know how much sense that'll make to Americans, but it's it's like you came in, you closed the border cuz you got to give credit where it's due. >> He's closed the border, >> right? It was the Iran decision that [ __ ] everything.
1:55:40>> Yeah. >> Yeah. Because even the ICE stuff, >> look, most people in this country don't like the idea of a militarized police force with no identification just pulling people over. It opens up a world of problems. It It sets terrible precedents. And this is what people that are pro-ICE don't seem to understand.
1:56:00They could use that in another way. Now we've set a precedent. You're allowed to have a militarized police force with masks on and they don't have any identification and they're snatching up people and some of them happen to be American citizens. Like if you're supporting this cuz I got to crack a few eggs to make an omelette.
1:56:15Okay. Well, you just opened up the [ __ ] hen house and now the chickens are running all over the place. Like you could do whatever you want now if if you're allowing that. and that's normalized in society. That's not good. But on the at the same point, you do have a bunch of very dangerous criminals, the trend to aragwa people.
1:56:34There's a lot of different gangs that have gotten in and they're setting up illegal activities and kidnappings and all kinds of [ __ ] cartel violence inside American borders. That's real, too. So, like support of ICE to go after that is pretty strong. But it's also as well what it does to your democratic process because one of >> people part of Trump's appeal as we all know is that he marketed himself as the outsider.
1:56:59I'm not part of the political system. You're going to get a radically different presidency with me. I'm not going to be the other ones. And one of the promises was Here you go, Joe. >> No, I got one. >> Uh, one of the promises was like, no forever wars. We're not going to go around. We're not going to do these wars.
1:57:15I'm going to put America first. It's going to prioritize American people because we've got real issues in this country that we need to sort out. And the problem is when you do Iran, what you say to people is it's just more of the same. It doesn't matter who you vote for, you're still going to get these types of wars.
1:57:36And so what happens is that people then feel more and more disenfranchised that they not connected, that it doesn't matter who they vote for, you're undermining democracy. >> Yeah. And that's a really dangerous place to be because once people feel that democracy doesn't res doesn't represent them, then they start disengaging.
1:57:55And again, it goes back to that argument about vacuums. That power vacuum still needs to be filled. And then you have people going, well, what we actually need is a king or what we really need is to do our own thing. And that's how the fractures appear within society. >> And you got those weird kids today that think we should burn it all down and start from scratch.
1:58:13It's like, "Okay, show me your plan. What's what's your [ __ ] plan? What's your burn it all down like long range strategy?" >> Well, that's why I always um look, I'm not a historian, but it's it's something I've always thought about. I think calling the American Revolution a revolution is uh inaccurate and that leads to a lot of confusion because it wasn't a revolution.
1:58:36To me, a revolution is when you overthrow the existing regime in your country, right? The Russian Revolution, >> right? >> You have Thesar and then the Bolsheviks come in, they overthrow the Zar, they install a new government, right? In the French Revolution, you have a monarchy. The revolutionaries come in, they execute the aristocracy and the king.
1:58:57They institute a new government. The American Revolution is really a war of independence. It's you guys saying, "We're going to separate away and in our part of the world, we're going to have our own government. You guys do whatever you want." Uh so America was not actually created in a revolution. It's just people seeking independence.
1:59:15It's like if Scotland broke off from the United Kingdom, right? Uh and that I think changes the mentality because revolutions actually usually end very badly. >> It's a very bad thing that happens. They're very violent. Lots of people get killed. Uh the people who did the revolution usually get killed off uh first.
1:59:34Then they kill off the people who came. This is what Stalin did. I mean, his purges were just about, you know, you've you've the revolution has happened and now you've got all of these psychotic revolutionaries who don't know how to build anything. They just want to tear everything down because that's what revolutionaries do >> and now we got to get rid of them.
1:59:52>> The revolutions are generally not the sort of thing you want to be around for when they happen. Um, and so yeah, the tearing tear it all down thing that doesn't appeal to me at all. >> Well, it's just young kids that are saying this. It's like this is these are the young Democrat socialists and Marxists.
2:00:09They want to tear it all down. It's a great message that resonates without actually having thought it through. It's like you see that guy's pissing you off. Go punch him in the face. Okay. What if he punches you back? What if his friends show up? You know what? If what if there's a guy in a car across the street who sees it and he grabs you and throws you into traffic?
2:00:29Like there's a lot that can h Let's play this out. Let's think this through. If you [ __ ] destroy America, what what takes its place? Where does the money go? Where does your money go? Where who takes care of the streets? Like, >> you know, and I always say to these people who are like, you know, I'm a socialist.
2:00:46I'm go, you ever talk to a Cuban? >> Talk to a Cuban. >> Talk to a Venezuelan Russian. Talk to a Russian. If it or talk to anybody from Eastern Europe, >> anybody who's really experienced actual communism, they're not fond of it. >> No. No, they're not. I remember I used to go to the a coffee shop uh when when I was doing when I was writing for standup and I I got a um I had a I got to know a guy who ran the coffee shop.
2:01:11He was a Cuban guy and we used to talk about communism all the time. You know, it's one way to pass the day. And he actually said something to me. He goes and because I was getting very frustrated at this point that around about 2018 2019 this the talk of socialism came back and and it was very triggering to me on a personal level >> and and I was very upset and I was saying to him he was getting really [ __ ] >> dead >> and it was and I said to him like how do I how do how do you fight this and he
2:01:43goes you can't and I go what do you mean he goes look Francis you know when you argue with somebody from the west who has grown up surrounded by this and you're saying about communism, they can't understand it. They can't comprehend it. It's like saying to a really rich kid, look, don't walk down that alley.
2:02:02Don't walk down it at night cuz something's bad going to happen to you. He goes, the only way they will ever truly understand is if they walk down the alley, they get hit on the back of the head, they feel the taste of blood in their mouth, that's when they get it. M >> until then, I hate to break it to you, but you're fighting a losing battle.
2:02:19And I'm talking as someone who grew up in Cuba, whose most of their family is Cuban, and have tried this time and time again. There is a part of me that is slightly fatalistic that goes, >> sometimes people need to see the mistakes for themselves. >> You have to fall down. You have to hurt your knees to realize like, oh, don't do that.
2:02:39I also think we have to be honest and say that there is a thing going on in a lot of western societies where if you had assets in 2006 before the great financial crash you've done very well for the last 20 years but if you didn't your ability to buy a house to pay off your student loans all of that it's become more difficult and it's it's why that portion of society who feel that they've been locked out >> u are feeling like they don't have a stake because they don't have a stake in
2:03:12society and that's when this kind of thing happens and I think that's something people people on the right and people like us who who I mean I I think communism is the most evil ideology that's ever been tried just numerically speaking it's a fact right but you have to make sure that it's not looking after people because it's what we do in Britain we just go here's a handout you know you don't need to work just here's some money shut the [ __ ] up right that doesn't work.
2:03:39But what you have to do is make sure that society feels fair to everybody or to as as great a number of people as possible and that there's opportunity to advance. And for our generation, we are in our early 40s now. I for our generation, I'll be like Joe, if if we hadn't started trigonometry and haven't had the the amazing success that we've had that we're so grateful for, we'd be in that same boat.
2:04:00we'd be in the exactly same boat and we'd be struggling now going like this thing it doesn't work anymore and I think that's where a lot of this stuff is coming from. So >> yes, >> it's it's one of the things that I think people in the AI world don't really think about enough. What happens when even if we don't if even if we accept that actually in the long run jobs aren't going to all disappear and like all technology you create new jobs with it and all in the interim it's going to get very
2:04:33disruptive and in that time I really think Andrew Yang was on to something when he talked about the need to find a way yes you're creating all this beautiful wealth these five companies are creating all the wealth but you've got to find a way that the rest of society feels like they they've got a shot as well.
2:04:51They've got an opportunity. Um, and unless we do that, I think this path down to where a lot of people feel really locked out and angry and and frustrated and betrayed, I think that that it's understandable that they >> It's totally understandable. That's why the movie The Joker resonated so well. >> Yeah.
2:05:10>> Yeah, it was. It was. And I always say this, it's like society is basically a game. and you know you follow the rules, you do what you have to do and you will get the rewards at the end of it. The problem is is if for young people, which is very very true, they feel they're not getting the rewards and everybody else is and they're working just as hard, if not harder than everyone else, eventually they're going to go, you know what, [ __ ] your game.
2:05:37>> Yeah. >> And the board goes up in the air. And that's I think what we're seeing with young people. >> Sure. That's why they cheered when Luigi shot that United Healthcare guy. And that's crazy to me, but that's where it's coming from. Yeah. You know, that's crazy. >> It makes sense. And it's also that's the narrative that's being promoted in universities, you know, that kind of thinking, that revolutionary thinking, making it sexy.
2:05:59>> Yeah. Yeah. And so when you when you combine that and also the other things they've been taught for generations now is to hate their own society, its history, its culture. You put all that together, it's a dangerous mix. >> Fun times. >> So, but but >> but I really think that there is a way to address it.
2:06:14>> Yeah. which is that we have to think this is coming. People are locked out. How do we make sure they are included again? >> Yeah. Well, the if you ask the AI people, it's going to get super weird. Um because the universal high income thing that you that you hear Elon talk about that would be that every citizen of the United States would have a stake in artificial intelligence and that you would get just like if you live in Alaska you get money from the oil companies you get a check people maybe
2:06:51people don't know this but if you live in Alaska you just you get a check >> and uh >> when when you're born or >> no you get every every month. >> Yeah. You get a you get an income. >> Wow. >> Let's find out how many people in Alaska get it and what's the parameters. >> Um you know, if you live on Native American reservations, like they get checks.
2:07:10>> Mhm. >> If you're Native American, you know, you can get a check if you're a part of a tribe that has a casino. >> You know, you get a piece of the casino. And this is kind of what's going on with the United States when it comes to the consequences of AI and taking over automation, taking over jobs, taking over shipping, taking over commercial truck driving.
2:07:29You already see it all over Austin. You see these uh Whimos and cyber cabs. It's kind of nuts. I mean, I see as many of them sometimes as I do regular cars. They're It's really nuts how many Whimos you see. Um so those jobs are gone. They're taking jobs and this is just the beginning of the storm. These are the first raindrops of the storm that is the consequences of AI completely taking over every aspect of society which it'll probably do and do much better than what humans do.
2:07:59Then then becomes the problem of your identity like how do you think of yourself as a person who works and you are you proud of that? Is that that who you are? you know, you're you're proud to be useful and you're you know, you get great satisfaction out of your occupation. If all of a sudden your occupation is automated and you don't exist anymore, massive amounts of depression, massive amounts of drug addiction, and then you just give them a check, I don't know if that's going to
2:08:26be enough. >> Well, to your point about Native American reservations, from what I understand, the kind of social outcomes of that are not great. >> So, here it is. Uh, no, not Well, the Native American one is particularly bleak, but we can get into that. Alaska pays eligible residents an annual dividend called the permanent fund dividend.
2:08:42For 2026, it's $1,200 per eligible person, including a $200 uh energy relief payment. So, it's 1,400 bucks a year. That's not much. >> Um, but it's a little something >> per What's that, J? Oh, per eligible person. >> Includes a 200,200. >> Oh. Oh, sorry. Includes a 200 including a $200 energy relief payment.
2:09:02So, it's just 1,200 bucks. >> Yeah. >> Um So, if there's two people in your household that are eligible, like two, well, how many how old do you have to be to be eligible? Who receives it? Um, do you have is it a certain age? Is there an age requirement or is it all citizens or is it like voting citizens?
2:09:27Either way, um, it's not enough. >> No. Um, now the the real question is when you're dealing with AI and this infinite amount of wealth it's going to generate, how much is enough? You know, when when Elon says universal high income, what are we talking about here? Like what is what does that mean? Are you saying you're going to give everybody $500,000 a year?
2:09:48I'm not I'm on board. Okay. So then what happens? >> Are you Joe? This because this is the flip side of this conversation, which is you mentioned the Native American situation. It's like you know yourself. >> You take a lot of meaning from the things that you do. >> Mhm. >> So just getting money. >> It's a dire straight song.
2:10:10>> Money for nothing. Yeah. >> Yeah. And the chicks for free. Money. >> I'm not sure they Well, with AI girlfriends, maybe you're going to get the chicks for free. >> They were talking about it. They were talking about guys complaining about people on MTV. That wasn't really what the song was. >> Yeah.
2:10:23No, I know. But I guess I think what I'm saying is there's a difference from saying, "Hey, I'm um you know, Mark or I am Elon or I am Sam and I've taken your job and I'm Elon, I'm Mark, I'm Sam. I've taken your job. Here's $10,000 a month." >> Mhm. >> There's a big difference there. >> Yeah. >> Um and unless that problem, unless we as a society work out a way to do that, uh you don't have to be a genius to work out that's not a recipe for a stable, healthy society.
2:10:50Oh, so I I'll give you an I'll give you an example of something. So when I was teaching, I taught a kid. He was very low ability. He really struggled academically. So we I gave him work which was, you know, which was less challenging than other kids. Sometimes he would be okay. Sometimes he would play up cuz he understandably had self-esteem issues.
2:11:11One day he was playing up really, really badly. And I said, "Chris, look, you're going to be in detention." And I wanted to I I never believed in just detention getting kids to be bored. I wanted him to be useful. And I was giving him what I thought was a punishment. I said, "Chris, you see all the pencils in the classroom?
2:11:30Every single pencil, I'm talking about colored pencils. I'm talking about ordinary. I want them sharpened and I want them perfect cuz we've got an art lesson after lunch." He went and did it. And when he brought the pencils back to me, he was so happy. He was so proud of himself >> because he felt useful.
2:11:47cuz he felt useful and he said and I saw a side of him that I'd never seen before because finally he got given a job that he could do he could do to a very high standard and he was useful and part of something and he said something to me that actually kind of teared me up. He went can I come back tomorrow and do more?
2:12:09>> So he felt good. He felt good that he was useful and I think most people do. >> Yeah. The real question is, is it possible to teach people differently in school? So, instead of teaching people facts that they need to memorize and having to sit in a chair and making sure that you're doing everything that you're told cuz someday you're going to have to have a job and that's you're going to have to learn how to behave this way.
AI, universal income, and purpose
2:12:29Is it possible that you could teach people, listen, money is not the problem anymore? Resources in terms of like your ability to feed yourself and put a roof over your head, that's not an issue anymore. Now your life is about pursuing your interests. But we have to teach people that from the jump. We have to teach people that from the time they're very young.
2:12:50The older people that are set in their ways, they're going to have a very difficult time changing and adapting. But and then also people are going to have a very hard time having the same kind of motivation that people have when they grow up poor. That's a superpower. Growing up poor is a superpower because it gives you a motivation like a drive that I don't think you get if you're a trust fund kid.
2:13:13Your parents are worth a lot of money. So, we're going to have to teach people to have internal motivation instead of external motivation. And we're going to have to teach people that there is a great benefit to to doing things that you don't want to do and then seeing the result to, you know, just putting off any sort of enjoyment that you might possibly have in the present time so that you can have more enjoyment in the future because you did that.
2:13:40You sacrificed and you figured something out. But we have to teach them how to that that way of thinking. And if you could teach them that listen man, you don't have to worry about money anymore. But that doesn't mean you don't have to worry about life. Like there's a lot of cool things that you can find that you can do with your life.
2:13:53But now do those things and get a sense of purpose from you learning about yourself while you're pursuing whatever it is. Whether it's becoming an author or whether it's, you know, whatever, making things, whatever it is, find a thing that you like and then teach people how to find the thing that interests them rather than finding just some menial [ __ ] job that's going to keep them depressed and just barely pay their bills.
2:14:20>> I noticed this with my son. The thing he loves to do with me the most is like paint the fence. To him, that's like the happiest time that we have together. >> See progress. we we we go and do something together that he feels is valuable. He's learning. He's doing it with me. Obviously, it's, you know, father and son time as well.
2:14:37>> But but he would much rather paint a fence with me than he would play a game. >> Much rather >> interesting. >> It's more it's more meaningful for him, >> right? He's accomplishing something. >> Yeah. >> And learning a skill like you said, you know. >> Yeah. There's stuff that people can do. We have only been doing this thing, this show up at a job and and doing working in an office and show going to a city.
2:15:00This is super [ __ ] recent in human history. It's one of the reasons why subsistence tribes are so much happier than us because we've been doing that forever. And the human reward systems are structured in a way that like if you hunt and fish and grow your own food, that's normal. Like you're you you have very little anxiety.
2:15:17That's that the great Wner Herszog documentary Happy People. >> You know that documentary about the people that live in Siberia? >> Tell me about it. >> Oh, it's called Happy People, Life in the Tiger. And it's all about these uh fishermen and trappers and hunters that live in Siberia that have like no mental illness.
2:15:33They're all just happy and they live a completely subsistence lifestyle in one of the most brutal climates on Earth, [ __ ] Siberia. And you know, and they they're fine. Like they're having a good time. We're [ __ ] up and we think, "Oh my god, I could never live like that." But you're not happy. But they are happy.
2:15:51What is our goal? Is our goal to be happy? Because this thing that we've created, these jobs in in in corporations and in cubicles and this thing that is normal for us is not really normal for us. And we've kind of decided somewhere along the way that this is the only way that you have to have a job.
2:16:10And without a job, what do we do? What about the idea that something that the human race has created no longer makes it necessary for you to do a job anymore? Now instead of worrying about huntering hunting and gathering food, the next stage of being a human is pursuing interest. I mean, it could be a gigantic explosion of creativity and of innovation and art and who knows what people can do, especially with the access to technology that we have today and all the different things
2:16:43that people can we could we're just assuming that this way that we live that sucks that everybody hates is the only way to live. And I just don't buy that. I mean, clearly I'm biased because clearly I went through all those process of being poor and struggling and figuring out a way in life and then trying a bunch of very difficult things that other people avoided and finding a path.
2:17:05But I don't know if that's the only way to live. And I don't think it is. I think there's a a a competitive drive in people that exist no matter what. And if we're not competing over finances anymore, maybe we'll compete over art or accomplishments or creativity or fill in the blank like whatever you decide to pursue.
2:17:25And of course, you're probably going to make more money doing that on top of the money you already get. It's not like we're going to go into a full communist day where the entire population only get $500,000 a year. We take from the billionaires. We distribute evenly. No, that's not what we're saying.
2:17:44We're saying like you start out with the 500,000 whatever it is. I don't know what the number is going to be. Start out with that and then you can still make money on top of that if you want. But do you have the drive to live a special life to live a fulfilled and interesting life? >> Well, there's there's a soccer player, former soccer player called Danny Drinkwater, and he uh name it is a great name.
2:18:04He won the Premier League with Leicster City, which is a very very small team. It was one of the biggest surprises in football that no one ever predicted that this team would win. And he went on to have an amazing career. And towards the end of his career, he was struggling. He became he was be struggling with alcohol.
2:18:21And then all these pictures started to emerge of him after he finished his career on a building site. And people were taking the piss out of him going, "Ah, look how far Danny's fallen. He was a Premier League champion. Now he's working on a building site." And he there was an interview where he was like, I love my life.
2:18:39I'm training to be an electrician. I love doing this. I get a sense of achievement out of it. I get the same camaraderie that I got in the dress room with the boys on the on the building site. I'm actually happy. This is what I want to do because he realized that he still needed something. >> He still needed to achieve something.
2:19:00But because in our own kind of [ __ ] up way we see playing elite sport as somehow less than building something that it's lesser then. But he's actually found a purpose by doing that. >> Well, it's interesting that you would never go up to someone who's working as an electrician go you [ __ ] loser working as an electrician.
2:19:19But if that person had been a movie star and then you know stopped doing movies and said I think I'd rather be an electrician. Then well you're allowed to talk [ __ ] about them. But it's just shitty humans are one of the biggest problems we have is we're not teaching people how to think or not I don't want to say teaching people how to think but informing them on the more beneficial ways to construct your life through thoughts and instead we're allowing these stupid kind of like
2:19:52that kind of like tear them all down behavior to go unchecked. Like you really, you know how transparently pathetically jealous that is to want to go up to a guy who is like an elite soccer player and you're upset cuz he has a job that's like yours. You know how [ __ ] nuts that is? That's nuts. >> It's a status thing.
2:20:08I think we had this great guy on called Will Stalker. He wrote a book called The Status Game. Are you familiar with it? Yes. >> Yeah. This is the This is the reason people do this, I think, is it's a status thing. So, Premier League footballer, high status, electrician, low status. And also, let's be honest, if you haven't got to where you've got to, where you wanted to in life, and you haven't got the status that you want, it's kind of satisfying for some people to see someone else fall down.
2:20:38>> Oh, yeah. >> And then you go, "Oh, I'm not the only one." >> Sure. >> It's actually one of the things I do really like about America. you have a kind of failure is just the step to the next success attitude here. A lot of people have that here. So, it's very normal for people to start a business, business doesn't work, they start the next one, doesn't work, start the next one, it pops.
2:20:56And actually, I was seeing stats, I can't remember where I got it, so I hope this isn't BS. Maybe Jamie can check. But I think um with every business you start and fail, it increases your chance of succeeding. Well, not it increases, but if you start by the time you start the third business, your your chance of that business being successful is significantly higher than the first one.
2:21:16>> I think this is Elizabeth Holm's strategy when she gets out of jail. >> By the way, her uh husband lives in town, >> lives in Austin, so we might be seeing her at the mothership one day. But I I think it's a really important thing that and I think we should all do it. We should we should all talk about our failures more because it's part of the journey.
2:21:42>> Yeah. >> You know, if success isn't as sweet when you get it first time round because you don't appreciate it. But if you fail and fail and fail again and finally something works, you just number one what that teaches you is gratitude. Number two is it shows other people, oh [ __ ] if he's failed and failed and failed and then made it, maybe I can do that.
2:22:05Maybe not in the same field, but maybe my journey is going to be like that in a different way. >> It's one of the main things that I think a lot of people can get out of jiu-jitsu, other than self-defense, is that everybody starts out terrible. M >> you you you you I mean you have a little bit of an advantage if you're strong, you know, you have a little bit of an advantage if you've maybe done some other martial art before, but not much.
2:22:29I mean, even me, I I'd started out I had years of taekwond do and kickboxing and all. I got mauled. Just mauled. I mean, I was it was so humiliating, but humbling in a great way where I was like, "Wow, I had no idea I was that vulnerable. I was walking around all delusional thinking that shit's not going to work on me.
2:22:48He might work great. But everybody who you train with, if they stick it out, you see them growing and getting better and we all you you all go on this path together where then all of a sudden I've seen guys that they started out they were terrible and then and a couple years later I see them rolling with the new guys and manhandling them.
2:23:11I go this is amazing. like look at this guy. Like now he's like tapping people out that are new. And then you see the look in in his face like wow I can this is real. I learned I got better at something that I thought was impossible in the beginning. You're so the mountain is so high like [ __ ] You take one step you fall down.
2:23:29You're like this is terrible. And for a lot of people their self-esteem can't handle it and they never go through that process. But if you could force yourself to go through that process, it's one of the very best processes of a failure and then learning from failure and then you get a little bit better and then more failure and then learning and then a little bit and you keep going and you realize like oh this is a journey and along this journey I can apply these same principles to essentially anything
2:23:56in my life and get better just even about just being a human. just better at being a human, realizing the dumb [ __ ] that you do that sabotages your life or [ __ ] up your diet or gets you drinking again, whatever it is, you can apply the same strategy that you learn to get good at jiu-jitsu to anything in life.
Failure, persistence, and shared humanity
2:24:15>> You know, I remember when um I was this nearly 10 years ago, I was uh opening for Eddie Isizard on his European tour and I remember people go to me like, "Who's like one of your biggest influences?" And Eddie was that person because when Eddie started out doing comedy in London way back when, like late 80s, early 90s, you know what his nickname was on the circuit?
2:24:40>> What? >> No laughs, Eddie. >> That's what it was. Like he would come on and everyone's like, "Oh my god, it's this guy." Oh, [ __ ] >> Was that before or after he started dressing like a chick? >> That was before. >> So, did the dressing like the chick turn it all around? >> No. No. I think what actually turned it around is that he was just and when I spoke to him he was like look I was relentlessly driven and focused.
2:25:02I knew that this was what I wanted to do. I knew that this is what I wanted to achieve and what was happening is that at the beginning it wasn't working for me. So I needed to change in order to get to where I wanted to go. >> But I know he likes dressing like a woman. So maybe that legitimately I love that guy but it's weird cuz he is a guy like I think now maybe he's changed >> but he told me he likes women and I'm like cool you know like he came on the podcast he was great I've I've done a
2:25:35couple podcasts with him but the point is like that is what he enjoys doing and to stop him from doing that in the past maybe allowed him to be freer on stage which allowed him to be better on stage because it is a journey of self-discovery when you try to figure out what is it about your act that doesn't work.
2:25:50What is it about this that the people are not buying? Like, and maybe that was a part of it for him. >> Maybe it was a part, but he was also trying to do something radically different at the time that nobody else was doing. >> But once he nailed it, he kind of he just exploded for him. But I I always remember that lesson that I took from him, which was >> you've got to go through the [ __ ] You have to.
2:26:12That's just part of the process. And you've also as much as possible not got to take it personally because you've got to accept that this is what life is teaching you. If you want to do that, you've got to take the hits and you've got to accept failure. Most of life is failure. Most of the time you do things, it's not going to work out in quite the way you want.
2:26:29But then you take the lessons from it and then you move on. And it's gradual. It's not like we all want to be the guy who steps on stage, gets on a soccer field, touches the ball, everyone goes, "Wow, what a genius." 99.99999% of us ain't like that. >> Yeah. And even the 1% are probably the the point whatever it is 1% they're not either.
2:26:54>> It's all [ __ ] It's 100%. It's like some people have a better start than others, but everybody has to learn and grow along the way. And it's interesting with Eddie, like he applied that same sort of grinding strategy to a lot of like crazy physical feats that he did, like when he ran around the entire UK and he didn't train for it.
2:27:13>> Have you seen that documentary? >> No. No. I remember the story. >> Insane. It was one of the most impressive things I've ever seen cuz literally the skin on his feet were falling off. Like he had to take a couple of days off. He's running a marathon a day with no training. and uh he had to take some days off because his feet were so destroyed he couldn't stand on them.
2:27:33Never the forget about running 26 miles. I mean you're seeing the raw open skin. It's horrible. And he's got a doctor or a nurse tending to his wounds. It's terrible. I mean just like raw torn apart feet. Next day 26 miles. Took a day off, maybe a two, maybe two days off in the entire time he did it.
2:27:53It was nuts. And it's like that same thing like just keep going. You can do it. And in this tick- tock generation where everybody wants everything to happen really quickly. You want to be an influencer, you want to get famous, you want to get this, you want to get that. I don't want to get fat. Oh, take a pill.
2:28:09Bang. You know, whatever it is or ompic. There's this desire to have something happen to you very quickly versus the satisfaction that you get from knowing like the jiu-jitsu mountain like look, I started down there. I started down there. Now I'm all the way the [ __ ] up here. >> Right? And that process is just makes you into the person you're actually supposed to be.
2:28:28Yeah. >> It's it's the process that makes you into the person you're supposed to be. >> Yeah. And anything difficult. >> We often we often talk about this, you know, with our show cuz sometimes we we're doing interviews with people. We're like, "This is a serious thing that we're doing here. Serious person.
2:28:41This is going to be big. It's important we get it right." If you had catapulted us when we started the show into the position of interviewing that person, we wouldn't know what the [ __ ] to do and we would screw it up very badly. Oh, for sure. >> It's the process that gets you to the point where you're actually able to have a conversation on a high level.
2:28:58And it's different things. Sometimes it's about being prepared to challenge people, call out certain facts. Sometimes it's just about like the conversation's dying out a little bit. Where do we go to? All of that stuff you learn along the way. And if you haven't got the miles on the clock up till that point being parachuted into that position, this is why it's actually probably very very hard to like start a TV show and get the right talent or whatever cuz they haven't got the miles on the clock to
2:29:29actually be able to do the job. And it's that process that gives you the ability to actually perform at a high level because you've been there. You've [ __ ] up. You've made mistakes. You've learned from them. You've grown as a person. You've become more humble. The process of doing stuff humbles you.
2:29:43Like you said, cuz >> no doubt, >> you go, "Oh, wait. I had this idea and it totally didn't work. Maybe I need to revise how I think about this." And I think life is just this one long lesson in what you talked about, which is deferred gratification. I'm going to give up pleasure or comfort. And comfort's a big one, Joe.
2:29:59It's not even pleasure, is it? It's comfort. >> That's what kills you. You get comfortable and it's a lot more comfortable to sit at home on the sofa. It's terrible for you, but it's comfortable. And it's overcoming that and learning to get out of your comfort zone. Like all the good stuff, it's on the other side of that.
2:30:17That's going to be the real problem with giving people universal high income is that like people don't like to just leave comfort and they're not going to want to do anything other than just take the money that they get and then >> I don't know party. >> I think so. But I also think we've all been I don't know, we've never talked about it, but I imagine there's been times when your life in your life when you've gone down that route.
2:30:42You've taken some time to just veg, you know, and you do it for a bit and it, you know, you play a video game for a week non-stop and you're just immersed in that and whatever and then you realize it sucks. >> Mhm. >> Like the first day you do it, it's kind of fun. and the second day is fun, but eventually you get to the point where you realize this sucks.
2:31:02And I think with having this universal high income or universal basic income or whatever, people will get to the point where they go, "Actually, this has been fun." It's like partying. A lot of people spend their, you know, 20s doing that. Eventually, you grow out of it. 99% of people do. >> Hopefully.
2:31:23>> Yeah. >> You've met a lot of people who haven't grown out of it. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, especially me because I know a lot of comedians that are basically like 45 year old boys. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Because especially if you don't have any responsibility other than getting on stage at night, you know, comics have the most open-ended schedules and a lot of them have zero discipline and they don't have to.
2:31:45They can play video games all day. >> They work at a comedy club for a weekend. They make enough money to pay their bills for a month. They don't have to worry. And so they just they're childlike and they just drink at night and [ __ ] eat terrible food and play video games. >> Do they eventually though get married and have kids and settle down?
2:32:01>> Some of them do. Yeah. Some of them don't. >> It's a weird like sort of frozen adolescence. >> I think once you get to the kids thing and we see it with, you know, people that work with us. You start, you get a serious girlfriend, suddenly the attitude shifts. They get a little bit more serious. >> Children's the big one.
2:32:18>> Yeah. It just lets you go, oh boy, I have to take care of a tiny little person. like this is not the same fun and games anymore. >> And set an example. Yes. Because they don't learn from what you tell them. They learn from what they see, >> right? >> And so if daddy's sitting on the sofa, what are they learning?
2:32:31>> Well, hopefully the world will learn, right, in that regard. Like, so if universal income becomes a thing, well, I think there's a lot of pros that come out of it. Here's the pros. Starvation ends goes away. The lack of food ends goes away. The uh struggling to pay your bills ends. So all that stress ends.
2:32:49So how much crime do we lose because of that? I bet we lose a lot. I bet there's a long transitional period because people have been ingrained to certain types of behaviors and actions and they have uh personality flaws they've developed over the years. But once society settles into the concept, I bet crime radically gets reduced.
2:33:11>> You mean like necessity? Yeah. because they're I mean like you know the the silly one was the AOC one where they're you know stealing stuff from stores they just need bread for their family like right >> that's why they've got the Lacost trainers. Yeah. Right. No, there that's not necessarily what's going on, right?
2:33:30Um but once society settles and then there's not a halves and halves not situation at the same extreme that we have today because the extreme that we have today, not as much in this country because it's kind of thought of as the land of opportunity, but there's a lot of countries where like if you don't have, you will never have and this is just how it goes.
2:33:47If that becomes something that's adopted and employed by all nations is that the the amount of wealth it generates is so [ __ ] extreme that and jobs are gone and that people now have money but you never have to worry about working. So the fear and the anger at least gets significantly mitigated. >> I mean that's the hope.
2:34:11That's the real hope. And if they just want to play Call of Duty all day, like who [ __ ] cares? >> As long as they like their life, it's like, but you know, it's like we need to train people to enjoy their life and not think that your life is just a thing you do that sucks so you can make money so that you can buy stuff so it makes you feel good about doing the thing that you do that sucks and then one day you die.
2:34:36Like that's >> the encouraging thing about human beings is I think we are very adaptable. We are very adaptable. And I think the things that matter to us are the things that have always mattered to us. Uh it's family, it's human connection, it's meaningful work or meaningful activity at least. It might not be work.
2:34:53It might just be activity. You know, I love chopping wood to to to like I could buy wood, but I don't. I buy wood that I have to chop because I like chopping the wood. >> You know what I mean? I like and I like doing it with my son and I like teaching him how to do it. I could pay a guy to paint the fence.
2:35:08I could pay a guy to paint the wall. if there's little things that I can do with him or I can do myself, I actually prefer to do that. And I think it's a it's actually some so we will I think we will find a way to adapt uh because it's what we've always done. That's that's I think the big hope. But I do think the transition is going to be a big challenge.
2:35:28Yeah. >> And I think I really hope the people who are doing this AI stuff think about this a lot. I I think it's going to be them who's going to have to think about this a lot. And if I were them, I'd be thinking, how do I give as much of this away as I can so that everybody feels included in this thing.
2:35:50>> Yeah. >> Otherwise, there's not enough robot defenders in the world who are going to guard your mansion, >> right? >> Is is what how I think about it. And um yeah, I think we'll get to that. I think people will realize that's the reality of this. >> I hope so. Do you know what always gives me hope is that when every time I taught Greek mythology to the kids and we did the Odyssey, everybody got locked in.
2:36:15And I taught in a place where most kids were first or second generation immigrants. We didn't have shared culture, vastly different experiences, some of whom were incredibly poor. But you taught like the Odyssey, boom, they were all locked in. And why is that so special? It's so special because it talks about the human condition.
2:36:32It talks about struggle. It talks about overcoming. And I think one of the things particularly nowadays is we we all think we're so incredibly different. Yet when Christopher Nolan does a a retread of the Odyssey and puts it on the big screen, people flock. And I people talk about, oh, it's an anti-woke movie or it's this or it's that.
2:36:52No, because it's a story about a man confronting his own demons and overcoming them. and the importance of family. And I think we that's a really important bit. That's a really important bit. The things that as Constance says that matters have always mattered. And this idea that we're more divided than ever and that we hate each other and we've got to believe that we can overcome that.
2:37:17We really do. Because if we just see each other as an enemy or as an avatar, we're never going to be able to transcend. But if we see the humanity in each other and actually left, right, mo most people just want a fairer, better world. We've just got different ways of approaching it. >> Here, here. And on that note, >> we solved everything, Joe.
2:37:39>> We solved it all. >> Francis Foster for president. >> No, you don't want that. Trump, >> we were ending on such a nice thought and you had to ruin it. >> Cut to me getting executed. >> It's always fun talking to you guys. I really appreciate it. Love your show. You guys are cool as [ __ ] It's always fun.
2:37:58>> Great to see you, brother. Thanks for having >> It's always a pleasure, mate. >> Bye, everybody.
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