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Transcript · The Joe Rogan Experience

Joe Rogan Experience #2571 - Jimmy Carr

2:50:23English, auto-generated captions35,836 words · 143 min read

In short · Summary by AI

Joe Rogan and comedian Jimmy Carr discuss artists and mental health, ancient civilizations and the pyramids, drug crises like opioids and polio-DDT parallels, AI and its risks, comedy as a community art, and finding purpose through curiosity and play. Their overall conclusion is that human connection, participation, and gratitude matter more than screens, status, or certainty.

Transcript

Clarkson and Carr's Origins

0:01Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. >> The Joe Rogan Experience. >> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY NIGHT. All day. >> Hey, Jimmy. >> Good to see you, friend. >> Yeah. >> I want to thank you so much for introducing me to Clarkson. >> Oh, it's it's it's fun, right? >> Jeremy Clarkson is the best. He's exactly who you think he is.

0:24who you when you see him on TV, that's who he is. [ __ ] hilarious. He was so fun to talk to. Such an interesting guy to talk to. >> Well, he came down to the mothership last night. I don't think he's been to a comedy club before. >> That's wild. >> He was like, "What's what's going on? What what's the show?"

0:41I doing a thing called Kill Tony. He went, "I don't know what that is, Jim. Are you telling jokes?" And I went, "I'm sort of judging people telling." Oh, okay. And then he got got to the mother ship and went, "Can I get a rosé?" Uh uh luckily I think your MS has a bottle of rosé somewhere which is now missing.

1:00>> They keep rosé there for her. >> Yeah. >> Well, you know the guy he was with Wilman who's his producer. They're childhood friends. >> They were in school together and they've done everything together. They're just as thick as thieves. >> The whole origin story how it started out with a syndicated story, a syndicated article.

1:19>> He started he used to write reviews for cars in the local paper. He would write these articles and he was like he's always been like a really funny guy. So it would be a review of a car but it would be kind of about life and what's going on in the world as well always. And he'd write this really kind of funny piece and then they decided well we sell it to this local paper but there's another local paper and every every sort of you know local papers got a car section on a Wednesday selling cars and

1:43those guys advertise and they had to make that look more like a paper. So you could just sell that to every newspaper in the country. So we ended up kind of making a fortune doing that. That's how he kind of got his reputation. >> Wow. >> Kind of clever to think about kind of how media changes over the years.

1:55That was kind of the old newspapers, local papers were the thing. >> And before he started writing the car articles, what was he doing then? >> Oh, I mean nothing. >> Really >> nothing. He was just like just a guy. He graduated with nothing. I think graduate didn't graduate university. He just was like, uh, >> he's a funny guy.

2:12He was showing me his broken finger from when he punched Piers Morgan. >> Oh, right. Yeah. Yes. I think that's >> Do you see that? Huh? >> See that bump? That's from punching Pers Morgan. >> Well, well done him. >> He's so fun, man. We got a great >> You got to get him on. You got to get on. >> I would love to.

2:32He is a little apprehensive. He says every time he opens his mouth about anything on a podcast, the Daily Mail, writes a terrible article about him. >> But, but it's that thing where you got other people's opinions about me are none of my business. >> Yes. >> Like people are going to write things and that that's okay.

Entertainers, Artists, and Authenticity

2:47Yeah, >> but at some stage you just have to go and I think it's like a superpower. Not giving a [ __ ] what other people think about you is a superpower. And if you can do that, like I think I think comics are maybe better at it cuz we're not entertainers in the pure sense. I remember this thing like Robbie Williams said this thing to me.

3:03He said, "I'm an entertainer in the pure sense. If you don't love me, I don't love me." >> Oo god. I don't think of musicians as being that way. I would never think of Bob Dylan as that way. Well, I think Bob Dylan is I think the difference between an entertainer and an artist is if you say to an artist, I love your new record.

3:22And they go, well, that's interesting, but I don't give a [ __ ] It's my new record. And I think comics have got that thing where you go, I feel like I write the jokes, but I don't write the show. >> Do you really think that like an artist would say, I don't give a [ __ ] if you like my record? I I feel like there's a spectrum of giving a [ __ ] what other people like, but the most important thing is you being able to express yourself.

3:48That's the most important thing. If you're expressing yourself only for other people's love and affection, like if you're just zooming in on what's going to give them the best response, what's what's going to get me the best response, the most love and affection from those people, that's a trap. I think it's it's that's audience capture.

4:06It's where you you you become you become a covers version of yourself, >> right? >> That thing of like that fame being like a weird hall of mirrors where you you kind of reflect back what you think they want you to be. >> Yes. >> As opposed to >> audience capture. >> Yeah. Finding something kind of exciting to do.

4:22But I do think that some people who are true artists, like I've I know musicians that are like really good musicians and very popular and when people come up to them and say they loved a certain song or they loved a certain album, they genuinely get happy. >> I think that's possible. I think it's possible.

4:41Say, "Thank you. I really appreciate that. I I'm glad you love that album." I've seen it happen. I wonder if it's a continum of like, okay, so you've got like, I don't know, Picasso at one end going, listen, I do what I do and I've got to express myself and on the other end it's the guy kind of dancing desperately trying to get the audience on his side.

4:59>> Well, I think it's a spectrum of varying personalities with the same kind of goal. This the kind of goal for an artist is you have an idea and you want to figure out the best form of it to present to other people, right? That's and there's all sorts of mentally ill people to get invested in this too.

5:23There's people that are out of their [ __ ] mind. There's I mean Jerry Lee Lewis was accused of drowning his wife. He married his what was how old was the girl that he married? >> Young. >> Yeah. He famously uh went on before Chuck. Who Who did he go on before? Was it Chuck? Who What was the story where he lit the piano on fire?

5:47>> Well, there's the cousin. >> Okay. I think that's where he had to go. >> He was 22 and he married his 13-year-old first cousin once removed. Okay. >> Okay. >> So, you got to separate the artist from the art. That's what they always say, right? But my point is like you got that and then you've got, you know, Kurt uh Kurt Cobain, you've got Jimmyi Hendris, you got Janice Joplin.

6:14>> I would I I'd make a distinction here between um hyperacelerated rationality like super smart people doing great stuff and actual genius. I think genius always comes with a little sprinkle of crazy. Yes. >> I think it's like there is a there is a price to pay that you would not want to pay. So whether it's, you know, Michael Jackson or, you know, Kurt Cobain, like tortured souls creating this incredible entertainment for us, but they're going to a very dark place.

Genius, Madness, and the 27 Club

6:41Like I've got a theory about the 27 Club. You know, the 27 Club of like all the people that died at age 27, these incredible musicians, Janice Joplain and Jimmyi Hendris and Amy Winehouse, these like incredible artists. And I think it's because they are >> more sensitive than we are. that they've got like everything is they're feeling everything that and and to be that good.

7:07So then they're numbing themselves. The drugs are the medication to just I just to I need to not feel this. Well, there's certainly a lot of that going on. No one would deny that, you know. Um, it's just I think whenever you're trying to categorize a group as large as artists and lump them into a specific type of personality traits that, you know, a predetermined pattern of personality traits, I don't think you could do it.

7:35I I've just met too many that are so different. I've met like really arrogant ones that are clearly mentally ill that produce incredible works. Like Kanye West clearly has some mental issues. >> Yeah. I think that's that's >> And that [ __ ] knows how to make some bangers. >> Yes. It's extraordinary, >> dude.

7:55He's >> he's like the prime example of like you wouldn't want to be I wouldn't be a genius. I'll be I'll I'll just do my thing. That's great. But that the price to pay. >> I asked Elon Musk once about that and he said you wouldn't want to be me. >> He goes, "You wouldn't want to." He goes, "I just my brain never stops moving.

8:13It's like it's horrible." Well, I kind of think about storm going on in my head all the time. >> I sometimes think about that with anxiety. You know that idea that like anxiety is thought without control and a flow state is control without thought. >> Like the idea that you could be in a flow state where you're not you kind of you're not thinking, you're just doing the thing.

8:35Sometimes you can hit that and then but the anxiety all of the anxiety that I have if I wake up and I have a panic attack and I'm kind of spinning is also the thing that's written every joke I've ever written and done everything I've ever done that kind of that nervous energy. So there's always like a a positive to it but taken to it extreme where you go the guy can't relax, the guy can't sort of I mean I think here's my theory on Elon Musk.

Elon Musk, Religion, and AI

8:59I think he's going to find religion in the next 12 months because right there's there's a theory, right? Four things that keep us from God, right? >> There's there Okay, so fame, fortune, power, and pleasure. And I think he's won every one of those games. And I think he's going to get bored and he's going to have to go and find God.

9:21>> Interesting. >> Fame, fortune, power, pleasure. >> Maybe he creates God. Maybe that's what them what they're in the middle of doing with these [ __ ] companies. This is my you know the the I'm with Hegel and nature on this, right? So I I don't think >> I don't think we were created in God's image, >> right?

9:38But I think we so wanted there to be a God that we created one in our image. I'm going to describe something to you. It's all powerful, all knowing, it can create miracles and it lives in a cloud. >> Now am I talking about God or AI? And both Hegel and Nietz got to this 150 years ago. They they they went, "Well, is the universe was God there for the big bang or is the universe a device for creating God?"

10:07>> That's what I I believe as well. I believe that it's the whole reason why we innovate. It's the whole reason why we're obsessed with material possessions. I think all that fuels innovation and innovation eventually fuels the creation of a digital life form. And it used to sound like science fiction till about 20 years ago.

10:23And now we're deep in the middle of it where it's undeniable. >> It's interesting because like you like the Egyptian culture, right? The myths and legends and the pyramids. Because it strikes me that the Greeks got a lot from the Egyptians, right? >> The Greeks basically looked at the Egyptians and went, "Oh, they fell to they fell to nothing because they they never innovated.

10:42They never changed anything." So the Greeks kind of wanted not to make they didn't want to make that mistake. Like we live closer to Cleopatra than Cleopatra lived to the building of the pyramids. >> We Yes. That's like a weird fact. They never because they once they once they had it locked in, they just went, "Okay, that's us.

Graham Hancock and Ancient Civilizations

10:57This is our system." As opposed to the >> There's a That's a narrative of uh of history. And you should look into the work of your fellow countryman, Graham Hancock. Do you know who he is? >> No, I do not. >> Okay. Graham Hancock had a show on Netflix for two seasons. I don't know if they're going to do a third, but it's called uh Ancient Apocalypse.

11:15Is that it? That's it, right? And it's all about how >> was this made Was this made for you? No, >> this feels like it was made specifically for you. >> I I've been a fan of his for a long time. He has He was actually one of the first guests I ever had on this podcast. Actual guest other than being comedian friends of mine.

11:33Me and Duncan uh convinced him to do the podcast when the podcast was like no one was on. >> I think I have heard this guy on here when he came back. >> He's been on many many times. He's a very good friend of mine now. I love him to death. But I think he's right. And uh I think he's not alone. Now there's dozens of legitimate archaeologists that share his ideas.

11:55And then on top of that, you have people that are studying impacts on Earth from extra stellar or interstellar, any kind of asteroid comet impacts, all these different. There's a lot more information about that now than they've ever had before. And there's a big one that aligns up with the end of this previous civilization that probably created all these great works and what we have now and this sort of 5,000year period of reconstruction of civilization.

12:26>> Let me see if I can tie all of this together. Okay. Okay. Artists, Elon Musk's and and the pyramids and AI. >> Here we go. And AI. Here we go. I think uh this is Terrence McKenna's point originally. So pyramids and rockets are the same thing. >> How's that? Okay. So, it's a huge amount of human capital is used to spend a chosen to send a chosen few to the heavens.

12:50That's what a pyramid is for. >> The pyramid's for >> and that is what a rocket is for. >> There's a lot of debate on what the pyramid is for now, but most like it was some sort of a device. >> They were using it for something. >> But but again, it's it's for the transcendent is the idea. >> I don't know.

13:06>> His take was >> that idea doesn't hold up anymore. There there's a lot of information about the actual design of the inner dimensions of the pyramid of the pyramid that leads a lot of legitimate especially younger archaeologists now to try to exam examine what exactly this thing is. Do you know that do you know about all the new discoveries that they found the ground penetrating radar?

13:27Yeah, I I I I don't kind of don't know what to make of it because it feels to me like the the the news cycle now, it feels like that would have been a year's worth of news had that happened 15 years ago. And now it feels like we move on so quickly. >> Well, the problem is it's very gatekept in Egypt.

13:44Like that guy that I had on my podcast, Zahi Hawas, he's in charge of whatever gets distributed about whatever official narrative, whatever press releases. He's sort of at the front of the line and he has been for a long time and they're very reluctant to give up those reigns to any new discovery that doesn't have his name on it and doesn't have their name on it.

14:06It's not approved by them. It's a real problem because there's this there's this uh labyrinth that was discovered by well it was documented by Herododus. So we're talking thousands of years ago. This >> incredible structure underneath Giza that's greater than Giza. Now they know that's real now. They've done they used ground penetrating radar now and there was also an explorer I think was it the 1800s who went down there but he could only go so far.

Giza Labyrinth and Pyramid Mysteries

14:33So the water table changed. They had built a dam in the 1960s and that was really [ __ ] it up where they can't go back in there anymore. And so when they built this dam to help agriculture, it raised the water table all around the Giza Plateau and this labyrinth this under incredible underground structure was all flooded.

14:53So they're trying to figure out what to do about that now. But because of ground penetrating radar, not only do they know that this exists without doubt, like they can absolutely document the immense size, but that there's also a 40 m long metallic object that's in the center of a large atrium that looks like a tic tac.

15:12They don't know what it is. They don't know what metal it is, but they do know it's made out of metal and it's 40 m long and it's underground in this insane structure. >> 5,000 years ago, >> probably longer. This is this is the real problem. >> The real problem is we don't know what the origin story of humanity is accurately.

15:34We don't know. This is what the Jesus story is and the Adam and Eve story. There's all these stories, but what we get is there was probably some sort of an event and then people talked about it for hundreds of years before anybody ever wrote it down. And no one who wrote it down was there and no one has an accurate a really accurate representation of what that person says, including the works of Jesus.

16:01>> Yeah. Well, this is like I suppose it's that thing of the uh the carcass of the whale like the idea that we're living in a world that we couldn't build again like like um you know from Britain you go we were the first industrializing nation right we built the first railways >> and now we are totally incapable of building a railway like the last 15 years 20 years the the Chinese have covered themselves in highspeed rail and we've covered ourselves in environmental reports >> right

16:30>> we seem incapable of kind of getting [ __ ] done. So you go you have these weird things where you go the the the pyramids are there and we've we've kind of lost the instruction manual. We couldn't do that again now if we tried. It's a weird thing with civilizations where they kind of I don't know when like how did Rome fall there's a theory about like how civilizations fall.

16:49>> Sure. >> Um Peter Turchin has this really good theory which is it's two things. It's uh one is inequality uh and one is the overp production of elites. So you have too many people becoming elites >> and then they don't get what is promised to the elites because you open up so so too many people go to university.

17:07If half of everyone goes to university then they can't and they get the degree and they work hard and then they don't get the life that they were promised then they become a counter elite and they rebel against the elite and the inequality becomes you know too great and you know everything crumbles. That's his kind of theory through history of how, you know, society's kind of come crashing down.

Asteroids, Volcanoes, and Collapse

17:31>> Well, that that that's certainly a factor and we're experiencing that right now. I think the factor that they were dealing with was a asteroid impacts and um documented ones. So, this is a part of the younger dus theory that's undeniable is that they've done icecore samples and in these icecore samples they find high levels of aridium in a lot of areas.

17:52Right? >> Aridium is very common in space, very rare on Earth. when there's a layer of it, it usually indicates that we were hit, >> right? >> And this is all around that same time period of 11,000 years ago. >> Well, it's interesting as well like what effect that has on the greater on the globe. Like there's that famous case of like people talk about, you know, the environment, what's going on with our environment and really uh Crakatoa is a great example, right?

18:15So when Crakatoa went off, it was such a big volcanic eruption. There was no summer in Europe the next year because all of the particles went up into the stratosphere above the stratosphere and they reflected light. So the earth cooled by like two degrees. >> What year was this? >> This is 18 hill. No >> 1883.

18:34>> Wow. >> That like no summer in Europe like and and Europe was I guess pro probably no summer in the world but they didn't measure it anywhere else. So there's kind of mass starvation off the back of that. >> Right. Of course. And you know, and and again, you know, like uh uh civil unrest and and people kind of falling to pieces because >> you know about the Toba one, the Toba volcano.

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19:51One non-withdrawable reward redeemable terms at dk&ng.co/offer. Limited time offer nationwide based on sportsbook predictions and free-to-play sports contest availability. Varies by state. >> It knocked humanity down to a few thousand people. I think it's 60,000 is like the little is the is the thing the lowest we got to I think >> which is extraordinary when you think about it >> from a super volcano and so a super volcano is uh you know it's not extraterrestrial it's a thing that's

20:17actually here it's a natural disaster that occurs periodically on earth whereas the sky is a shooting gallery I mean we are we are in a the middle of a crazy pathway where we run into 900 plus thousand near-earth objects And we're spiraling through the galaxy, hurling into space at an insane rate of speed.

20:41>> I mean, that makes me feel dizzy. >> Citysized objects that are just floating around and occasionally they come rocking in at five times the speed of sound and slam into the earth and it rings like a bell for a million years >> and that's what killed the dinosaurs. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Within seconds it was into the earth.

21:02the dinosaurs were um I forget what the name is. There's a biological term for it, but the the eggs below a certain temperature were male and above a certain temperature were female, dinosaur eggs. >> So, and that that would that worked pretty well for for the distribution of gender. >> Yeah. >> And so when the when the asteroid hit, obviously it kills a couple of dinosaurs that it hits, but what really happens is the Earth cools by two degrees and their system just goes.

21:25So they're all born female. >> That makes sense. >> And then they all die out. So any animal with that system. So then there's ones that didn't die out that didn't have that system. So the reason you know crocodiles or sharks, you know, things from that era that just didn't didn't depend on that system for gender distribution.

21:40I was just reading about an animal, some sort of a reptile that they just recently observed getting pregnant without a male involved and that this was uh unsuspected. They didn't think that they could do this. It was God, I wish I was paying more attention to it, but that happens all the time in the weird lizard world.

22:03Like the same kind of creatures that can grow their own legs back when they lose a leg, they also What's going on there? >> What the [ __ ] is going on there? And how come we can't do that? that they also get heavily affected uh their sexual organs get affected by things like herb like atrizine. You know that stuff that that gets dumped into the water that turns Alex Jones famously said turns the frogs gay.

22:28>> All right. Okay. Well, >> turns out it really does. Turns out it really does. It really changes their gender. It turns a male frog into a female frog. >> Yeah. I mean, we're messing around with stuff. Yeah. That that can't be good, can it? But no, but it's just weird to me how the lizard world is so odd like that.

22:45They're so much different than the rest of us. Like the lizard world, we should be very terrified if we ever get invaded by reptiles. Like if reptilian aliens are real, >> I'll make a note of that somewhere. Yeah, I mean that seems like a pretty good idea. >> Their limbs back also they like some of them don't need to eat for a year.

23:02>> Like crocodiles, they can not eat for a whole year. They can hold their breath under water for hours at a time, slow their heart rate down to almost nothing. >> Yeah. I mean, I'm listen, I'm with you. If we get invaded by crocodiles, I think we need to take it very seriously. Yeah. It might bring humanity together, which would be the good thing.

23:19>> The something would like another 9/11 or something. We need almost we need be attacked. Well, weird inequality is the big thing that Peter Turchin talks about like bringing down civilizations, but some this other guy did a did a study on the the things that cause equality >> and they're four things, right?

Pandemics, Inequality, and Trust

23:36So, you got to be careful what you wish for because the things that that cause equality to happen are it's war, revolution, civilizational collapse and uh pandemics. >> Yeah. >> Like those are the things that equal out society. just like it's it's terrible. Pandemic did for a little bit. I think I think in the the beginning it kind of brought people together and sort of settled people down to like what was actually important in life.

24:03>> The very early days when we were really worried that people were going to die from it. There was like no when no one knew what the severity of the infection was and we're just hearing about this disease from China. We're locking down the country. That was genuinely terrifying. Well, well, the idea that sobering everyone went through the same thing.

24:20Yes, >> everyone had the same experience. People reacted very differently to it, but everyone went through the same experience like that that kind of that the global lockdown, >> right? >> But it it Yes, >> it wasn't uniting though after a while because after a while it became very divisive especially when >> there was the whole are you with or without the vaccine.

24:39It's like are you Apple or are you Android? It's like it it it's one of those tribal things that people do. Are you a Republican? Are you a Democrat? Even whether they're skeptical about pharmaceutical drug companies, normally they'll abandon all that if there's some sort of an ideological group that you're a part of that thinks one way or another.

24:57And that happened during the pandemic, which I never thought we would see. I think it's a little window >> fierce fights about pharmaceutical drugs and whether or not you believe in the pharmaceutical drug company and that the people on the left would be the ones that were telling you these massive multibillion dollar corporations that have the highest criminal fines in all of human history.

25:18Those are the ones we should be trusting. But that happened in this country and it happened all around the world. >> It happened all over the world. I mean it was it was a it was a a [ __ ] show. I mean it it shut down everything. >> But that was the divide. The divide was the medication and what path we took to get out of it.

25:35If that didn't exist, if it was just there is no there's no medication, the only thing you could do is be healthy enough to be resilient and get through the cold, but we're all going to get it. If that was the narrative, >> is this not what's happening right now though in terms of going if you look at what we're doing, right?

25:51gain of function re research which is it almost certainly came from gain of function research which is like looking for a gas leak leak with a with a lit match right so it's just inherently dangerous but this is kind of the um I don't know if it is even a conspiracy now but the the the search for AGI strikes me as a similar kind of thing right the you're searching for the the last invention the last thing that you'll ever need um you know this con the conspiracy about solstice well I think AGI has a

26:23legitimate potential to change our lives for the better. It's just will it. >> Yes. Is this the future? Is it a bad analogy? There's no way these engineering viruses to be more v virulent to be more uh infect more people more easily to kill people more. There's no way that's good. >> There's nothing good out of that.

26:46>> But the AGI potentially could change society potentially for the better. It's just it's like what's the number like how does it go? >> Yeah. And and it's it's a it's a knife edge of life. >> But gain of function's not doing anything good for us. There was no cure. They had all these diseases that they engineered and they had no idea how to treat them.

Polio, DDT, and Medical Corruption

27:04>> No, I remember like they wiped out polio in the in the 50s and then they and then they they kept that story too but that story that story is kind of [ __ ] crazy too. You know what? No, >> I heard the lady on here talking about it. But I mean it's like you go they definitely polio was something. Well, polio still is a problem, but the real problem back then was there was polio and then there was DDT spraying.

27:24And that's a big part of the story, a gigantic part of the story is that the polio epidemic in America aligns with DDT use. Ubiquitous DDT use all over the country. >> It's and DDT poisoning has the exact same symptoms of paralytic polio. It's the same symptoms. And in fact, a lot of animals during that same time period, cows, horses, farm animals in rural areas were getting polio.

27:50Same symptoms. Why? Because it's [ __ ] DDT poisoning. >> Right. Remember John used to follow this that like that was just spraying the neighborhood. >> You want Yes. And that's what happened. That that happened all across America. >> What percentage of polio do you think is asymptomatic? >> I have no idea.

28:11>> Take a guess. asymptomatic test. >> Yeah. No symptoms at all. You got poll% >> 95 to 99. >> Wow. >> Yeah. We'll look that up just so we you know it's accurate. >> Wow. >> That's the real number. >> Yeah. >> That's the real number. And so we don't know how much of what happened during the polio crisis was polio, which can certainly hurt people.

28:35Certainly not good to get polio. Certainly not good to get paralytic polio. Certainly no one's saying that. However, the DDT use was happening at the same time. This is 70%. But I've seen it listed as 95% recently. So, I don't know why this but even it's not like 70% isn't interesting. >> No, it's certainly So, this is like >> no symptoms at all.

29:02>> 70% of the people get no symptoms. Now, I had read that it was 95 to 99%. I'm interested. put it into a different search engine and see if there's other >> is this maybe the worst thing that so when we talk about the >> but hold on this is why it is this is why it's it's I'm sorry put it back up explained it >> so 70% no symptoms whatsoever approximately 25% mild symptoms such as fever headache or sore throat I've got a sore throat it's not polio >> it's not developing paralysis it's not

29:31the same as being asymptomatic so you have mild symptoms for 25% of the people and zero Zero systems, zero symptoms rather, for 70% of the people. >> Yeah. I mean, it's still a terrible disease, but even you look at that and go, >> terrible disease. However, so is spraying DDT ubiquitously in neighborhoods.

29:49That's [ __ ] terrible, too. And this is the dirty secret about the whole polio crisis. It's not that polio is good to get. No big deal. Go get polio. [ __ ] that. Don't get polio. Polio's bad. However, >> they were spraying DDT everywhere and it gives you the same [ __ ] symptoms. And the two things stopped when they stopped spraying DDT everywhere.

Opioids, Sacklers, and Fentanyl

30:11>> Dr. Suzanne Humphre, she's a guest on the show. Yeah, she's I just want to tell people that are listening, there's a great book called Dissolving Illusions. And if you just countercheck all the things that she put in that book, you can read it all online, you'll find out she's telling the truth. And it's indicative of the same [ __ ] that we just went through with the po with the co ep epidemic.

30:31It's indicative of there's a ton of different stories of what we think are good pharmaceutical drug solutions for a problem that's happening that turn out to be horrendous for people and give them terrible side effects. And you you you know you see all these people that are suing and you find that pharmaceutical drug companies can make money off of it even though it was killing people.

30:53Like the there's a vio example in America. It was a anti-inflammatory medication and they were giving it to people. 50,000 plus people died. They got strokes. They knew that people were going to get strokes before they released it, but they did it because they knew they could make money off of it. And this is just this continual pattern that we can see throughout history.

31:13We want to believe in these institutions, but often times these institutions are corrupted by money. And when we find out that they're corrupted by money, it's too late. they've already poisoned you or they've already given you some drugs that cause >> strokes. Here's a strange thing, right? I've been traveling around Canada, America on tour, you know, kind of always on the road and you notice things, right?

31:31So, you notice like the fentinel thing happens in North America. >> Yes. >> But it does not happen in Europe, >> right? >> What's going on there? >> The Sackler family. Do you know the whole story? >> Well, the s I I remember the the the the kind of controversy about people giving out the idea that you should never be in pain, >> right, >> was kind of promoted.

31:49the idea that any kind of pain or discomfort is unacceptable. So, you need to be no pain at all. So, pushing the idea of those painkillers, which were opiates. >> Well, yes. Not just that, but also saying that they're non-addictive. And then also promoting this idea that you're just kind of on them all the time and everything's fine.

32:08>> And that's what you need. Just be on them all the time and you're going to be fine. And they got doctors to go along with this. They got doctors to subscribe to these ideas and promote them. But the fentinel the the idea this this Yeah. But the the idea how is that happening only in North America.

32:25>> Well Mexico we're connected to Mexico and that's where it's coming in at China's bringing in the precursors. So China ships the precursors to Mexico. The cartel makes the fentinel. They sneak it across the border and that has been going on because there's an opioid crisis in America. Mariana Vanzeller, do you know who she is?

32:41>> No. >> Brilliant reporter. I mean like a real courageous woman. boots on the ground journalism. Went to Colombia and was with people while they were making cocaine and walked with them through the jungle as they packed it out. She mean she she goes to crazy places where she can get killed all the time.

32:59And she started out well I became introduced to her from a piece she did called the Oxycontton Express. And the Oxycontton Express it was all about Florida. And Florida had these pain management centers. And say if you hurt your back, you go to a pain man. Oh, I'm in pain. Well, you should go to the pain center.

33:18If you're if you don't know anything about how corrupt the medical system is, you you would go, "Oh, that's the thing you go to for pain. They're pain experts." Fine. They probably tell me what to do. You go there, they only prescribe Oxycontton. So, there's a pharmacy connected to the pain management center.

33:33You go to the pain management center. What's wrong, Jimmy? Your back hurts. I got you. They're right. You go right next door. Right next door. and all they sell is Oxycontton and no database. So you leave that pain management center and you go to another pain management center a mile away and then you go to another pain and they're all over Florida and so people would go and fill their trunks up with Oxycontton and then drive up through Kentucky and Ohio and that's the Oxycontton Express and that made addicts

34:01like traceable destruction of communities all throughout the land and this was all because of corrupt politics. It was all because of corrupt pharmaceutical representatives. It was because of corrupt doctors that everybody turned a blind eye to make a ton of money. And most importantly, the Sackler family.

34:19This one family made billions and billions of dollars promoting this idea that you should be on pills all the time. >> Yeah. It's it's a horror show. I mean, they're not in jail. >> Like, it's a horror show out there. Like, there's certain cities that just seem to be so >> hard hit by this. It's like the the the middle of the town.

34:39It's like a it's like an interactive Walking Dead experience. It's like just people bent double on this drug and you go when no one seems to be helping. There doesn't seem to be any any help for these people. >> It is really good at getting you. It's really good. It gets disciplined people. It gets people that have a a like a work ethic and a good family.

35:03>> Remember when crystal meth kind of first happened? Because that again only happened in America. didn't happen in Europe. >> Yeah. >> Like I'm not saying we don't have problem with drugs in Europe, but it's not to the same uh extent. And the idea and that remember that poster, there used to be a poster of a like she was a a good-looking girl and then and over the course of like six years or 10 years, she became kind of, you know, >> attainable, >> like ashenfaced and sunken and whatever.

Drugs, Gambling, and Young Men

35:28Yeah. >> You got to lower her standards if you wanted to go on a date with you, get her on meth. >> But that was like 10 years. It seems to take people out in just a matter of weeks now just like >> well fentinyl and meth are very different things. So u meth is an empmphetamine obviously and empmphetamines there are a ton of people in this country right now who are addicted to amphetamines legally it's called aderall okay and you can make up all your reasons why people need it.

35:54I don't have any energy. I have ADHD. I can't concentrate. They will [ __ ] give it to you. They will give it to you pretty easy. You just complain a bunch of times, come in with a lot of brain fog. It'd be so easy to dupe your doctor into giving you aderall. 100% it would be easy to do. >> And it's legal for them to do.

36:17>> And what is it basically? What's this? >> [ __ ] speed. >> Oh yeah, I remember that. Yeah. >> Okay. >> Well, you know, that's She was a rough 28, >> right? 28. She looks like a 28 bare knuckle boxer. Like one of them bare knuckle boxer chicks with scars all over their face. What's >> she looks like?

36:32She had a hard life. >> Yeah, at 33 she's pretty attainable. I think I could Yeah, >> you could have got her. >> Yeah, that's attainable. Yeah, >> there's always going to be addictions that um you can avoid, right? Like a great one is gambling. It's very controversial in America. Like should gambling be legal?

36:53>> Right. >> I'm a guy who's been to Vegas a million times. I'm a guy who is I work for the UFC. I do comedy shows in Vegas. I'm always I like the idea of going there. Don't blow all your money, stupid. It's like at what point in time do we take responsibility for if you don't have any money, don't gamble it.

37:13>> Well, I think it's that thing with I think young men I mean I I've got a a bit on this like a not a joke, but like an idea on this. I'm like, you know, young men in crisis. I'm like I'm pro gang, pro um pro gang, pro gambling, and uh pro drinking. Like I think you know that thing of like gambling is not sports gambling, not gambling on something to give you a cheap little dopamine hit whenever you need it.

37:39Like that thing of like the interval reward system, >> gatekeep gambling. >> No, no, the idea of gambling on yourself. The idea of like the big gamble in life. If you take a big gamble, then you don't need those little gambles, right? So we got very lucky. We got into comedy. So it's like it's a gamble.

37:54I'm going to try this line. It's like we we get the dopamine. There's good ways to get it and bad ways to get it. So So encouraging the good ways. Human nature is fixed and flawed, right? >> Young men are going to want dopamine and risk. >> Yes. >> But how do we how do we sort of point them towards something that's useful?

38:08So my thing was like gangs, terrible gangs, you know, shoot each other and and deal drugs. But not all of them. A lot of gangs are just it's young men together. And the idea of like drinking as a like I've set up youth clubs all around Great Britain, right? And there's pool tables and there's juke boxes and music and there's there's booze social.

38:28>> No, they're called pubs. Yeah. And that's where I think young men where should they be together. Yes. >> They they they check each other very well. But the idea that they should be >> together. The drinking age should reflect reality rather than a wish. Like it's 21 in America. That's insane. >> 16 year olds drink.

38:44I don't think they should be allowed to drink alone. They're like, it should be a social thing that we go as humans, we go, okay, where do you learn to get on socially with other people? It's not the school. It's a It can be a bar, but the bar can have a a football team and a a baseball team, and it can be a place where you learn how to interact with other people.

39:05>> We should also explain to them that it does affect your brain development, and you should be very careful about getting drunk or high when you're young. Don't do it a lot. It's bad for you. the thing I was going to flesh out my point about gambling. I I have this opinion about gambling like don't don't gamble if you can't afford to lose and if you got a problem stop gambling but I have seen it.

39:25The problem is I've seen the grip of it. I've seen it grab people. I've seen people do you ever see Uncut Gems? That Alexander movie >> that that was like so it was like anxiety in in celluloid form. >> Genius film. >> It's so good. He's such a great actor. >> He's amazing. and he plays that gambling addict so well.

Pool Halls, Luck, and Gratitude

39:44I when I was between the ages of like 23 to 27, I spent all my time at pool halls, >> right? >> Like I was addicted to playing pool. I played in tournaments, played constantly. I was around gambling addicts 24 hours a day. >> So this is the hustler. This is color of money. >> Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But the real thing >> money was it was everything for money.

40:06>> You're playing for money all the time. It's not fun. It's just >> Well, no. People played for fun. Like people like me who suck. But the really really good players, they always played for money. They only played for money. They practiced and then they played for money. And it was all about gambling.

40:18It was all about action. Everybody was in action. You would go to the pool hall, it was it was gambling all the time. It was gambling on sports. It was offtrack betting before they got there. They would go to offtrack betting and bet on the races. And then they would come and complain about the races that they lost.

40:36And then they would get into card games until some someone showed up that wanted action. And someone would show up and they wanted to bet and then people would be betting on the sidelines. If you and Jamie were playing, I put my money on you. Let's go. Come on. And now you're sweating it. You got a sweat bet going on.

40:50And somebody wants to get in on it. You know, I want two games on the wire. Okay. You got two. So he might lose, but I might still win because he's got two games on the wire. So there's all these like crazy gamles that are going on all the time, 24 hours a day. How did you not get sucked into that? Cuz you were very into it.

41:07I mean, you're like quite not an obsessive guy, but like when you did uh mixed martial arts, you're all in. When you do comedy, you're all in. Like, you're all into things. And yet somehow gambling didn't capture you. >> Cuz I saw what it was. I saw this is a this this is a dopamine roller coaster and you're going to be here if I come back 30 years from now and you won't have moved.

41:31You're going to be doing the same goddamn thing. And there was this guy, my friend Tommy. I have a really good friend who has been my friend for 34 years. And um I met Tommy when he was like 19 years old. I was in my 20s. And when I met Tommy, he was the best pool player in Connecticut. It's like legitimate worldass potential pool player.

41:54Like big-time gambler. He'd get gamble for thousands of thousands of dollars. I'd see him all the time. and he was one of the best players like in the northeast which is one of the strongest pool areas in the country at a young age. He was playing this guy named Neptune Joe Freddy. Neptune Joe Freddy was >> It's a great name, isn't it, >> bro?

42:13Neptune Joe Freddy never stopped smoking cigarettes and he would when he was holding his queue, he'd put the cigarette in between the fingers of his queue like this. So while he's >> You know that was the thing with Minnesota Fats in the Hustler. >> Did he do that? He smoked the cigarette in that in that weirdly in that.

42:30Yeah, there was a comic, wasn't it? While he was I think he laid it on the table. >> Oh, he maybe laid it on that. But he sm I remember he smoked the cigarette through that. I always remember kind of Minnesota Facts because he's he was a comic. I only ever knew him from that movie. >> Jackie Lee, you mean?

42:45>> Yes. >> Yes. >> Jack Le, but I never I never knew his comedy. I I'd never seen him in anything else. >> I just seen him in that. Oh, that guy was a Cuz I didn't have any of the reference to the thing, but just like that movie. So this guy Neptune Joe Freddy was one of the best players in the world and uh one of the best players in in the East Coast for sure and uh Tommy was playing this guy and they were grinding it out and he couldn't be this guy didn't have $10 to his name.

43:08He's like I can barely beat this guy and this guy is completely broke and he's one of the best pool players in the world and like this is where it leads you. It leads you to this where it just you're not going anywhere. You're stuck. stuck doing this thing that doesn't pay any money. >> How lucky did we get?

43:26Right. My whole thing is like gratitude, right? So when I got into comedy in the UK around 2000, right? It was it was field hockey. It was it was it was darts. It was lacrosse. It was a minority sport. And now it's premiership football, right? >> And how lucky did I get to ride that wave in that time?

43:44I was just interested in this thing that wasn't particularly popular at the time. And it just became something huge. But like people you play arenas now it's crazy and with pool pool could have become the thing but you know it didn't you you backed the right horse you got so lucky like MMA didn't even exist when you were into it didn't exist like martial arts was a thing but MMA hadn't even really been formed it's the luck of being there >> lucky well then podcasting >> well podcasting like the idea of just

44:16going I'm just going to do my own thing >> and the thing that we were doing it when no one was watching so we were doing it would at like a,000 viewers, 2,000 viewers and now watching >> crazy things move up. >> But the idea of like that you consider that that >> No, I think about it all the time. >> I I do a practice.

44:32I I just I'm constantly like I think uh that thing gratitude is the mother of all virtues. Like you're constantly reminding yourself like of like we we live now, we do this, we get to do this like finding the thing that you're you could be excited about. You spoke to Chris Williamson about this recently.

44:47He's got this really lovely take on discipline, motivation, and obsession. Like the idea like discipline is you you can force yourself to do the thing. And that that'll get you two weeks into January doing situps and no further. And then there's motivation. I want to do this thing. I want to do it. And then there's obsession.

45:06I can't not do this thing. >> And we're very lucky in life that we found obsessions, things that it doesn't, you know, we're just like, I do if there's no money in it, it doesn't matter. I'm just I'm into it. >> Yes. >> Like the the issue with pool, your story about pool there is that it was all about money.

45:23It wasn't about the joy of the game, the beauty of that game. Like playing >> money in there's money in tournaments now, a lot more money than there was back when I was playing eight hours a day. Um, so there's guys at the top of the heap that can make a very good living playing pool, but only a few, only a handful, maybe 10, 10 guys, maybe 20 worldwide that are making, well, not worldwide because China's doing some crazy things.

45:50China is uh paying like half a million dollars for the winners of tournaments. Now, they're they're putting on these u different pool tournaments in China. They actually have a different table, though, and it's kind of uh it's really complicated. And when players try to switch over, it's a real problem.

46:06They It's called >> the difference in the table. >> Their corner pockets and their side pockets are curved like a snooker tables, >> right? >> So, um, the thing about pool is >> it's all about you're it's it's, you know, looks like a ball goes into the hole. You're hitting the ball with a stick, but what it really is is geometry.

46:27And you are breaking the table down into sections where you want a ball to be and how you're going to move and what angle you have to approach this ball on. So that as you knock it in, you're going this way to get to the other. >> Sure. >> As soon as you change any of the dimensions to the table, all the geometry changes.

46:46And one of the things that changes is the shape of the pockets. So the shape of the pockets don't accept a ball down the rail. So, so like, so if there's a ball down the if there's a hole right here and there's a ball right here, right? >> I have to like really gently roll that ball in. I can't fire it in.

47:03But in a pool table, I can fire it in with follow and move that ball around the table and get to my next shot. With a Chinese table, I can't do that. It requires the most insane pinpoint accuracy. It's a tiny little pocket with a curved edge on each side. But those guys are paying a half a million dollars for a more boring game unfortunately because it's just like everybody misses all the time.

47:30People miss ball in hand. It's like it's a really brutal game, >> right? Okay. >> Yeah. Weird. >> It's weird because they don't run out as much. So like what's exciting about pool is someone breaks, they have a shot on the one ball and they run the rack and then every like ah or there's a battle back and forth between two guys and they're playing safeties.

47:46But when you have a a pocket where a table where it's like 30% harder to make a ball, it get like that's what it looks like. >> See how it's curved like that. Oh yeah. Okay. So if you show a larger image of the table, >> I was looking around for pictures. >> The problem is just you could see it from Yeah.

48:02that second picture that you just had. That's it. Okay. So that's what they look like. They look like roll in there. It looks like a snooker table in terms of the way it's curved on the corners. Now get make that a little larger, please. So if I'm shooting a ball like say in the upper left hand corner, >> dude, my margin of error is like this on each side like like millimeters on each side.

48:27So it just makes for a brutal pokey [ __ ] scared ass game. Nobody's going to break. No one's going to nice one's going to smooth stroke any balls and get out. It's just too hard. That's a regular pool table. See? And on a regular pool table, you see everything has these these angles where as you're going like >> Well, I'm trying to find >> Just show me a regular pool table.

48:51>> I don't know what I don't have. >> That's a regular pool table right there. The reason why you can tell is if you see the corner pockets, this is a diamond. They're the best tables. If you see the corner pocket, see how there's this black piece of leather and that angle? Yeah. Right where to the left of Jaime's cursor?

49:06That angle's straight. On a Chinese table, that's rounded. And so you can't fire a ball in there. It's not gonna go in. And I might even by fire a ball in. Yeah. I mean hit it with a a firm stroke, right? You just It changes the game. But they're paying half a million dollars. So people are going to China to play in these tournaments now because they're gigantic because China is really into billiards.

49:28Like really really into billiards. And some of the best players in the world are coming out of there. Particularly out of uh Taiwan, out of Chinese Taipei. Some of the best players on earth come from there. They're insanely good. They have these schools. They practice eight hours a day >> and they have like regiments.

49:44Oh, yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. I'm an addict. >> So, but all of those things, right? Like, so >> martial arts. >> Martial arts. Comedy. >> Martial arts. You still I mean, you train, but you but >> Well, I can't obviously I'm too old to compete. >> They should have a senior's fun. That's a good way to get hurt forever.

50:00>> Yeah. Yeah. I think the senior's one has to be like the it has to be to the death, I think. But I stopped competing for the same reason why um I never really got into gambling at pool because I realized where it's going. There was no money in fighting when I was a kid. Um I got offered $500 to go professional.

50:15When I was an amateur kickboxer, I got offered $500. And I thought about that for $500 bucks. I'm going to train for two months and maybe go out there, get my brains punched in >> and then for sure get brain damage because I was already suspecting that I was getting it. For sure. You got exactly the right amount.

Martial Arts, Comedy, and Teaching

50:34>> That's what I say. >> The sweet spot. >> The sweet spot. Yeah, we have enough. Don't Don't give a [ __ ] Just a little chaos going on in there, but not to the point where I can't articulate my >> It's interesting because you had that thing of like the next thing that you could do, the jumping off point.

50:47So, the discipline of martial arts, the pool, you could kind of see where that's going. And then comedy came along kind of at the right time to kind of because comedy feels like it's >> it it's it's such an interesting thing to get into. I want more people to kind of get into comedy. I think that's the like you know that idea of like the opposite of being a spectator is not being a professional.

51:08The opposite of being a spectator is being a participant. >> And I think comedy is such a wonderful thing to kind of because you you're you're writing down and ordering your thoughts, right? >> And you sort of think about what you what you really think about something like what could you say that no one else could say?

51:24And then you're learning how to communicate that with other people. It's such a transferable skill. Like we should be teaching it in schools. There should be like the drama class should have a comedy element. >> Because it's it's such a useful skill in life to be able to it's just giving something your attention.

51:40I'm going to think about this thing. I'm going to think of a funny angle. Well, that gives you a bit of perspective on life. You're kind of stepping back and seeing it for what it is and kind of looking at it from different angles, trying to find something funny in this. It's like a great sort of way to improve your disposition just to try and see something funny even in the terrible.

51:57This episode is brought to you by Call of Duty. Modern Warfare 4 is coming and they're going allin on this one. The kind of missions that make you go, "Dude, did they really just do that?" Set during a fullscale North Korean invasion of South Korea expect a real boots on the ground experience as young South Korean recruits fighting to protect their homeland and North Korean forces, hunting traders, interrogating civilians, and more.

52:22Modern Warfare 4 is available now. Order digitally or pick up your physical disc at your local store. Visit callofduty.com for more. Rated M for mature. Probably the most popular art form that's not documented and studied in in terms of like having a structure to having to learn how to use it. >> Well, that's why I wrote the I wrote this book about I wrote this book on jokes um with two friends.

52:48You know, this is like I wrote this thing with uh Amanda Baker and Abby Grant, this book on jokes, which is like so it's in third. So that's like the taxonomy of jokes, like the descriptors of all the different joke types, not the function of the joke, but the type of the joke, right? Because people talk about observational comedy.

53:06That's like saying songs about girls is a genre. That's no like what how does this work? Is this pullback reveal? Is it a pun? What kind of word play is this? How does it work? and then how to put together routines and then how to perform because I think comedy can be taught. I don't think it's an immutable characteristic.

53:22I don't think it's something that that you're born with. I think you could have like a you could be drawn to it and then the idea of having some kind of structure because when you think about like people often say comedy can't be taught. Jerry Seinfeld said you can't teach comedy. I think he's one of the greats and I think Doug Stanho said comedy courses are raging scams.

53:40They're two of my favorites, right? But they both had teachers. They were both taught comedy, but they had a home club and they had a mentor and you know guys that we know started on the door and they ended up the headliner. >> Right. >> Right. So you Yes. Tony Hitchcliff used to used to park cars and and >> now sells out Madison Square Garden >> and you go and that that's a dojo.

54:04>> Yeah. >> But not everyone has access to that dojo. You know, it's the comedy seller, it's the comedy store, it's the mothership, it's like these clubs, but there aren't enough of those clubs. So you want to have a book that writes it down and kind of makes it a bit of book learning as well. >> Yes.

54:19>> Cuz you go, well, music isn't made any less wonderful by it having a formal structure. >> So that like part of the inspiration to write the book. So it's Abby Grant and Amanda Baker and my really good friends of mine. And >> are these the same people that you had work with people here? >> But that was the test for they came to the mothership and taught the course for six weeks.

54:38>> Amazing. >> To young comics and thank you for that by the way. >> I think it's grown corn. I I think those guys have are all doing fantastic. Yes. >> But the idea of kind of going, okay, we need to test this because I don't want to be a grifter. I never want to sell something. I don't want to sell a book that doesn't work.

54:52>> So, the idea of going, well, you've got this structure that people can kind of get into and go, okay, well, I I know what the work is now. I know what it is without like we had to have immersive learning. We just had to be surrounded by other funny people that were trying to do this crazy thing. >> But if you you can formalize it.

55:06You know the story of Amanda told me this story, right? And it it blew my head off. Right. So about Gregorian chants. You heard of Gregorian chants? Yes. Okay. I'll tell you why you've heard of Gregorian chants. >> Cuz Pope Gregory was the Pope and he's traveling around and he says, "Everyone's singing the songs differently in around outside of the Vatican.

55:26They're all singing them differently in the other churches. I don't like it. I want them to be the same. Write it down." And this guy and this guy went, >> "No, no, you can't write down music. If music doesn't live within a human soul, then it then it's ethereal. It you can't write down music. It can't be done.

55:43And Pope Gregory basically goes, "Look, I'm the [ __ ] Pope. Write it down." And so it takes him a couple hundred years, but musical notation comes from that. That's where musical notation comes from. Then 300 years later, you have bark. But you couldn't have had bark without the musical notation. M >> you needed it to be a little bit formalized so that people could express themselves through it.

56:08They they had the system then to and it doesn't make people the same. It doesn't make it doesn't make for more rigid music. It means that you can do more with it >> where you understand what you're working with. >> Yeah. You have an idea of kind of what you're doing that like it's not formulaic. You got to know the rules before you can break the rules.

56:26>> I think what Doug's getting at with comedy courses unfortunately is true. Um, a lot of them are taught by people that are failed stand-ups and uh never really made a career and now that's a way to make money versus like Ari Shafir was doing a thing for a while where whenever we would go into a town like say if we would be in Phoenix he would hold a free seminar for the local comedians on Sunday.

Comedy Community and Live Audiences

56:50So on Sunday, he would sit with them and he would break down how to get a manager, how to get an agent, how to get into clubs, and how to work on your act, and how to go over your act. >> What a great thing to do. I mean, he's in London now. He's uh he's a great guy. >> I I discouraged that activity.

57:06I told him, "Stay in America, son of a bitch." But um he he has to be a wanderer. He's he's a weirdo. Um but point is he had this great service that he was giving to comics when he'd go to these towns and he would they would ask him about material. How do you write? how do you do this, how do you do that?

57:21And he would sit with them for like three hours for free. >> Well, I think I I mean for me it's the writing thing is the reason to write the book. The trying to throw the the the the drawbridge down, trying to help people up and go, well, how do you how do you actually do this? Because there's a bit too much magical thinking in our business of like, oh, that guy's a genius.

57:38Because you don't get to see the working. You don't get to see the guys in the gym testing out stuff. You know, if you do, if I write 100 jokes and five of them work, no one no one ever says at the end of my show, what about the other 95 jokes? What about the other ones? They go, no, just obviously the it's like that that thing of I don't write the show.

57:55The audience decide that one works, that one doesn't. That one works, that one doesn't. And then you're generating this thing. You're kind of building up. Yeah. >> Slowly. But what I was going to get at is I think what Stan Hope is not correct about is that even if you're doing a comedy course for someone who sucks at comedy, there's they've at least done comedy to the point where they understand what it's like to get on stage and tell jokes and maybe some of them did fairly well, but at least you

58:23start doing it. Okay. So, one of the things about these comedy classes is they all have like a graduation day where they do their act, right? Yeah, that alone >> well that's worth but also that thing of like they go there's a there's a fancy term for it I think um capitalist ontology that we everything we look at has to be looked at through money right can you make money doing this or not make how do I like people ask me how do like get asked about being you know young people that want to be musicians

58:48or want to be comedians say how do I do this how do I make money doing this you go no no no just do it >> just do it don't worry about making money if you get good then then maybe but the 10,000 hours will apply you will have to work so hard at this to get good. But even if you just do it as a hobby, it's going to increase your enjoyment of this thing for the rest of your life.

59:08Like even if like I meet people that have done, oh, I did a little bit of comedy. I did like, you know, 10 gigs back in the '9s. Yeah. And they're at the show and they're so into comedy cuz they have an idea of what it is. The funniest thing you've seen the last 10 years, I guarantee you, >> is something you saw on your phone like a meme that someone made and you don't know who made it.

59:27And I do. It's a guy in Minnesota working in a call center and he just thought of a funny thing and he made it and he put it out there. And I want that guy in our industry. I want him to at least have a gut, have a shot, have have a way of doing like the thing I love about Kill Tony. I mean, Tony has inadvertently helped more people, made more careers, right, >> than anyone since Johnny Carson.

59:52>> It's phenomenal, right? and he's bringing up these guys and like Ari Matti is a legit I was in um Helsinki two weeks ago doing shows and I happened to mention on stage someone asked me about Ariati. Oh yeah, I saw Arin last week. Like like he was like, "Oh, who cares about you?" You know, Ari Mati like he's such a big deal cuz obviously Talon is across the water.

1:00:10He's like >> he's a force of nature, >> but he's wonderful, right? You go uh uh it like the idea of going more people should be in this. The thing about Kil Tony is well, it's a minute. A minute's not that long. I know a lot of people that have got and there's no that could put together a minute, but there's no greatest in comedy.

1:00:27There's no such thing as the greatest of all time in comedy because it's about being yourself, being authentic. It's the opposite of what artificial intelligence is, right? It's it's it's a right brain thing. >> Like people are very impressed by AI. >> Yeah. >> Because we've got so used to other people.

1:00:45>> If AI was all there was and you were the only person and other people came along, you'd be so blown away by other people. >> Like what could people say that's like it's their their unique viewpoint on something? You know, the you know the way comics kind of they kind of even if you're a oneliner guy like me, comics kind of um leak.

1:01:00You can kind of tell who someone is on stage, >> right? >> It's it's beautiful. It's like it's friendship at scale. >> Yes. Podcasts are similar to that, too. Maybe even more so because you're having these long long conversations about a variety of different things. But I think there's a lot of untapped talent out there that could be comics and instead will live these boring lives um when they're they've got this wasted mind.

1:01:27One of the funn funniest people I ever met was a guy I worked for. I worked for a private investigator for a while. >> You you talked about this. Yeah. >> One of the funniest people I've ever met in my life. Far funnier than me, especially at the time. I was only 21. And he was a former alcoholic who uh needed someone to drive his car.

1:01:41So, he got an ad for uh private investigator's assistant. Really, what it was is someone with a valid driver's license. >> You know what this sounds like? This sounds like the start of a great kind of Rockford Files start type show. >> Oh, it was. It really was. I mean, it was really fun. I would I was dating this girl at the time and I'd come over to her place after I was done working just crying, laughing, and I was saying I I'll never be as funny as this guy.

1:02:07This guy is so funny. And I would tell her the crazy [ __ ] we had to do because we were catching people with like insurance fraud and one guy one guy he there's he had this beautiful girlfriend and he was this me like measly little guy and uh he had this beautiful girlfriend and she was getting gorilla [ __ ] by this bodybuilder guy and this dude knew about it so he wanted him to take pictures and catch him in the act and uh after he got the photos he did all everything he asked him to do.

1:02:35Uh, the guy wanted him to still take more pictures. They're like, "Hey, >> the [ __ ] is what are you doing?" Like, "I'm not I'm not You got the right angles. [ __ ] porn dealer. Like, you got to [ __ ] YOU. MY JOB'S DONE. Here's pictures of this giant, muscular man [ __ ] your girlfriend. >> This is episode one.

1:02:55This is a show. It's a great idea for a show. >> So fun. >> But the idea of like >> so such a fun guy. >> You meet these guys that are so funny in life and you want them to have an outlet. the outlet that we have and you go and there's kind of there's more clubs. So, it's like Kil Tony is a thing, right?

1:03:10That's a thing people can do. There's your club, there's the the seller, there's the store, there's there's other places that are doing this around around America, but you want kind of more of it in the world. You want more. >> But the most important thing is community, right? And one of the things we really foster at the Mothership is a community.

1:03:25Everybody knows that whether you're a door guy or whether you're someone who's like doing opening spots or whether you're someone who's headlining, we're all doing the same thing. We're all the same thing. It's just we're on different stages of this journey. You're in your beginning stage. I'm in my 30 plus year stage, but I'll help you and you'll help other people, too.

1:03:47We'll help each other. And it's important to know that we do not exist in a vacuum. And comedy is one of the only art forms that you cannot create in a vacuum. You need not just the audience. You need other comics. You're never going to find the best comic in the world in some [ __ ] small town where no one knows about him and some tiny little bar that he does comedy at.

1:04:07That's never going to happen. No. >> It's always you have to be either on the road with great comics that you travel with or you have to be in a club in your local town where you practice with great comics. You see each other. We feed off of each other. We inspire each other. We're always having fun and talk.

1:04:22It's there's a community. It's very important. And we fostered that at the comedy store and now we're fostering it in Austin. It's a really important part of it. >> Well, I think that thing about fun. >> I often think about that thing of like dispersed identity is very like people think they're sort of sealed, hermetically sealed and it's them and they're an individual.

1:04:43And the more time you spend online, the more that illusion becomes real. you're just kind of locked off from the world and actually that connection of like who you are with other people like why come out why go out to a comedy show why go and see why go to another ship why come and see one of my shows why why come and see me on tour well it's like there's an illusion that I'm the only one performing because I'm on stage but actually being in an audience is performative like there's

1:05:06something about obvious so it's obvious >> you're playing a role you're sitting yeah you're sitting still and you're and just quiet and laughing >> well but that thing about going in my crowd I mean I have a lot of audience interaction So there's a lot of people like asking weird and wonderful questions and and and kind of getting involved and sometimes it's funny and sometimes it's heartbreaking and it's like all human life is here.

1:05:25It can be anything. And it's it's really interesting to kind of hold that space for people because you go people are desperate to feel part of something to to kind of feel alive and feel because you laugh with other people. You don't really laugh on your own. You don't laugh looking at stuff on your phone, right?

1:05:42>> You laugh when it's like when it's when you're in the room with other people. It's a signal. It's a social thing. Also, all the time that you're looking at a screen is pulling you away from the time you're with people. So, if like if human interaction was uh a recommended daily allowance of a vitamin, you know, like you have 1,000 milligrams of vitamin C every day, it's really good to stay healthy.

1:06:01If human interaction was like that, you would look at the invention of people working from home, staring at screens all day, being on your phone all the time, being on your phone even when you're around other people, your actual time interacting with people, radically dropped off. And if that's a physical requirement to be a happy, healthy person, which I think it is, and I think it's built into us, I think one of the reasons why people get so sad when they're alone is because in

1:06:31the olden days, if they kicked you out of the tribe, you're going to die. Okay? If you're not around other people all the time, you're not around the gatherers and you didn't succeed hunting or or you don't you don't have the right amount of spears to hold off the invaders, you're going to [ __ ] get kicked out and you're going to be on your own and you're going to die.

1:06:50>> Well, here's here's the take, right? So, the idea of going the human beings, right? Drop one human in the jungle, you fed the animals. Drop 10 humans in the jungle, you've got the apex predator, right? Our superpower is cooperation. Yes. >> And what's upstream of communication? Play. We learn to communicate through play.

1:07:12Anything anyone cares about, I don't care who you are. Talk to anyone. They care about play. Now, it could be standup comedy where we're playing on stage, playing a theater, playing a show. Or it could be sports, right, where you're playing. Could be grappling where you're playing with someone, but you've got very strict rules.

1:07:26A relationship is play. Sports play. Everything is everything people are interested in is play. We don't we don't stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing. The great the great thing about our lives is we play all the time. I think we need more of that in our world. We need more play.

1:07:45More like people get so serious% >> agree. >> You know, one of the great ways to learn martial arts is to be playful while you're learning it. So, it's one of the tenants of Gracie jiu-jitsu. >> Keep it playful. They they emphasize keeping training playful because when it's not playful, when it's life or death, which it kind of is, but when it's life or death and you're grappling with someone, you get tense.

1:08:07And when you get tense, you don't take chances. And when you don't take chances, you don't open up your game. So, you don't learn. So, you don't learn new ways to do things. You just have to get comfortable with the idea of potentially losing and knowing that if you lose, you're going to have another chance to go again in just a few seconds.

1:08:21And then you're going to go again with another person in just a few minutes. So, just relax. You're going to lose. It's okay and you're going to win too and someone's going to beat you and you're going to beat other people. But the only way to get good at this is to be playful with it and accept the fact that's going to happen and just flow and learn and you're learning while you're playing because it's fun instead of being this horrific life and death experience that after it's over you

1:08:45barely remember what happened. >> But isn't that the thing with like even even stuff like like being a dad, right? So the the the rough and tumble kind of play. >> Sure. tickling and wrestling with each other. They do it, puppies do it. >> But that thing like video games are no substitute for that. Like it's not that's not the same kind of play.

1:09:01You need that thing of like learning where you are, learning what boundaries are. Like when you play a game with someone else as well, like they they've got to win some of the time. >> Like it's that thing if I get heckled like yeah, you can put the heckler down or join in and play and sometimes they win.

1:09:17It's fine. Who cares? Sometimes heck >> service banger lines >> every now and then they got a banger that I got to GO AH >> WELL THAT ISN'T THAT THE THING though where sometimes someone heckles and it's like it could be a drunk guy trying to interrupt the show that's a separate thing my crowd like they they join in they add value every single night like >> well you do that fun thing where you allow them to ask questions and you talk >> but that's very I mean it's like they're

1:09:40so well um behaved because you kind of go right get out there I'll do 20 minutes of just like bang bang bang like three four big laughs a minute and try and you know try and get get them into I suppose the thing about the last bit of the book that on jokes book is about rhythm and about how comedy has a natural rhythm it's about 92 beats a minute it's like a comfortable walking pace like when you walk with someone you fall into rhythm with them right and so so there's a key word every two and a

1:10:08half seconds there's like a and you you want them to fall into rhythm and then you want give them 20 minutes so that they just feel totally calm like ah we know exactly why we're come out to the show having a great time. Oh, now it's Argo. We get to join in. We get to play it. >> And then you get back into it kind of seamlessly and like you eb and flow between those two.

1:10:26So you're putting together this thing where it feels like we all did this. We all had this experience, >> right? We're all having fun together. Yeah. >> No, that's uh one of the more fun things about the bottom of the barrel show at the mother show. >> Oh yeah, that's fun. >> That's the best show. It's so silly.

1:10:41Sometimes it's terrible. Like sometimes you got nothing. There's nothing in there. And sometimes you get gems. was like I I have three or four bits in my act right now that came out of premises that I pulled out of the barrel and had an idea just popped into my mind. >> You find that weird thing of like going that state that you're in on stage.

1:10:58>> You would never have thought of that sitting at your desk, right? There's something about actually being up there on the stage in front of other people and there's something amazing about I don't know what what the number is. Maybe it's 50, maybe it's 30 people in front of you listening to you. Yes.

1:11:09That feels so natural like that's a crowd. I'm speaking to a crowd and there's I could try a joke in front of 50 people at the club and it will work in front of 15,000 people in an arena. It's like, okay, that's gonna that's gonna work. An audience like that. >> There's also a thing about those little crowds like the the the little boy room in the mother ship that's only seats 110 people.

1:11:32When you're in a little crowd like that, there's no room for shenanigans or what Tom Thompson girl likes to call dance moves. Like there's there's bits where it's like is it really funny or is there a bunch of dance moves in the bit that makes people laugh on Q? >> Here's my thing about rhythm, okay, which I think is kind of interesting and slightly heartbreaking for us.

1:11:50Okay, so I would say pound-for-pound best joke writer of the last 30 years was Mitch Hedber, right? >> Pretty like pretty great [ __ ] jokes. >> Pretty great jokes, right? You see them written down, you go, "This guy's he's got to be." But his uh rhythm uh his his pacing was inconsistent, which is worse than being fast or slow.

1:12:12It was just so half the time he would kill and half the time he would die. Why? And a hack a hack comic doing hacky [ __ ] with great [ __ ] rhythm. Would would beat him 99% of the time. That's that's crazy. It is heartbreaking to me that no one took him to the side and went, "No, no, you just got to like you've got this lovely cadence to your speech, but it's you got to keep the same rhythm for it to work every time."

1:12:38I mean, he was a fabulous >> he was fabulous comic, but he was also a real heroin addict. Uh, a real bad one to the point where he got gang green in one of the shots when they lost a leg, I think. Yeah. >> No, he didn't lose a leg, but he almost died. It was as wild. >> I mean, he died. >> I mean, at the time, uh, he almost died before that.

1:12:56He almost died when Stan Hope and I were doing the Man Show in like 2003 and then he wound up dying after that. But his folks up >> that was part of the issue. >> JFL flew him up. Flew his folks up. >> Oh, did they? >> It was such a sweet thing. Like one of the nicest things I've ever seen at a festival.

1:13:12>> He um >> he had amazing jokew writing and he was very prolific, but he was also doing heroin all the time and it was part of the vibe on stage and it was part of the thing where it could go south. it could really get away from you, you know, like if you've got a guy who's relying on substances, especially heavy stuff, you know, like uh I've seen >> Greg Geraldo had, you know, the uh those kind of demons >> he did, but he cleaned up for a long time and then fell off and that's when

1:13:44someone gave him a pill and he died. >> Um but that that was part of the problem with Mitch I think was just that he you know they nobody could get him to quit too. He was like, "I'm never going to quit." He He was not interested in quitting. It was like He's like, "Uh-uh." Like, "No, I'm doing heroin."

1:14:02>> It really is a heartbreaker, isn't it? When you go >> It's a heartbreaker. But that was like real heroin. Like old school injectable Stevie Rayvon style. This is not like the [ __ ] stuff these kids are doing today where they're snorting. >> Sure. Sure. >> [ __ ] off. >> Learn how to tie off a vein, [ __ ] You know?

1:14:21>> Yes. take that [ __ ] needle and shoot that and cook it on a spoon like a real man and then shoot it right into your veins, [ __ ] >> It's It's very It's very sad when you lose someone like that because you kind of go I I wonder what the next special would have been. I wonder what the next story would have been, the next like what he would have made of this.

1:14:38>> But it's like we were talking about earlier with Janice Joplin and Hendrickx and people in the 27year-old club. They were all doing drugs, like heavyduty drugs, and they had all reached this state of excellence and this very bizarre thing that they do. >> Well, I think I think that level of sensitivity that they had, you know, being a performer being drawn to that and then having to it's like a uh what's the analogy?

1:15:03A um a lobster without it shell. It's the it's they just were so exposed to the world and they need to medicate against that. But the idea of going it's and for me it's like the idea of going doing any of that get to the I remember like going I didn't drink for the first I think 12 years of doing comedy just because I was you know drank at college and you know I didn't have kind of a problem or certainly didn't think I have a problem but when I when I found comedy in my mid20s oh I'm all in

1:15:32I don't want this I don't want to have >> that derails you >> you know that thing of like >> alcohol is borrowing happiness from tomorrow. >> Yeah. So you can have a you can have a drink, but if you have like five drinks, like tomorrow is going to be slightly [ __ ] up. So that thing of like what could I do today that I would be super happy I did tomorrow?

Mitch Hedberg, Heroin, and Sobriety

1:15:48Like giving a gift to your future self. Like that thing of you'll look back on your life and whether it's with regret or nostalgia depends what you do today. >> Like that's too big to think about on on your deathbed. But I could think about tomorrow. >> Like that chunking it down and going, "Right, well if I write some jokes today and I test them tonight, I'll be so pleased I did that tomorrow.

1:16:08and if I eat right, I'll be I'll feel better tomorrow. So, just that that like daily thing of like getting it down to a small kind of a unit of time I can think about, I can control. >> Yeah. Well, delaying gratification is very important if you want to get anything done. >> Yeah. I mean, it's it's the it seems to be it's also like >> well like in a in a metaphysical way, God is the future, right?

1:16:30God is an analogy for work. God is uh do do something good now for a better life in the future. >> So in a sense work is the same thing. You work now for a better future. What everyone wants what you got. No one is jealous of what you had to do to get it. >> The work that you had to do and it's often that thing of like the reason people get um uh sort of imposttor syndrome is because they think I no I didn't do the work.

1:17:00Yeah you did the work but you did it six months ago. You did you spent the time in the gym and then you you get it now? >> Well, I just think people get imposter syndrome because just the spectacle of becoming an actual famous person is so weird that very few people can navigate the waters and still be themselves.

1:17:15You feel so [ __ ] weird and then you you hear your name get announced and you hear people cheer and you're like there's no way this is real. >> You're like you don't want to believe it's real. And uh especially if you're still doing the same thing. So, if you're still doing the same thing, you're trying to create something, you're working on it, you're working on your act, and you're trying to do your best, like whatever your best is, that's what you're trying to do.

1:17:39And you're just formulating and you're getting ready to go on stage and that's all you've been doing like the whole time you've been doing comedy. And you have great sets and you have sets that aren't so great. You try to figure out why. And you write new [ __ ] You go over the recordings and then one day they announce your name and 15,000 people go apeshit >> and you start walking towards the arena and you're like, "What the [ __ ] is happening?

1:18:01Like, how is this real?" And that's what imposter syndrome is. It doesn't seem like >> it's the it's the body's immune response. >> Well, it's also this distinction that we have in society about that there's a different thing between a celebrity and a normal human being. Because because you don't see the work like like we >> It's not just that you don't see the work.

1:18:18They're in this very weird almost like a royal position where they're constantly in the media. They're constantly and no one's paying attention to you. No one's asking Bob, "Hey, Bob, the guy who does HVAC for a living. What's going on with your day? What's happening with your friends? Uh what's what's up with Did you get cancelled for TikTok that you made?

1:18:34Nobody gives a [ __ ] about Bob." And >> so you're watching these people that are people that everyone pays attention to and then Bob decides to do standup comedy and then Bob goes to an open mic night and then Bob gets on Kill Tony and he [ __ ] murders and Bob gets a golden ticket and next thing you know Bob is opening up for you know Ari Maddie on the road and next thing you know Bob puts out a YouTube special and it gets 3 million views and next thing you know Bob is selling out Massie Hall in

1:19:04Toronto and he goes on stage and everybody goes [ __ ] nuts and he can't believe it's real and he gets imposter syndrome. >> I think this is the natural state of things. Okay, here's here's my take, right? So, we made a huge mistake. We moved from the villages to the cities, right? And everyone in the village would hold the talking stick and they would speak.

1:19:24Everyone did it, right? And everyone used to sing in the choir, right? >> And everyone used to dance. I'm a terrible dancer, but everyone used to dance. Everyone used to sing. Everyone used to speak, right? And then we moved to the cities, right? Then we built these incredible halls, right? And you go and see Oasis Live, right?

1:19:38And you go and you watch um a ballet and the opera and you go and see um uh you know, Chappelle on stage and you go, "Oh, you're in awe and you're in the audience." We're so well entertained, but you're not a participant anymore. You're not you're not doing the thing yourself. So, it's that thing of like going, I would rather people went to play five aside soccer than went to see a premiership game.

1:20:04I'd rather people did five minutes or a minute in the club at a Kill Tony thing than came to see me live. People the participation thing is kind of lost. And it's the same with the social media like you're you're you're watching >> right a life >> people's lives >> but you're not you're not kind of you're not getting the IRL thing like they getting out and doing the thing from your life too.

1:20:28It's you're not just >> like if you're doom scrolling you're not just watching other people's lives. You're taking time from your own life to do things you love. >> Yeah. and and that idea that you go the the social media the the idea the the phone now is the is religion right and it the church used to ask for one hour a week the phone is asking for four or five hours a day >> and it's not giving you much back >> but and you make your and if you put something out there right if you if you

1:20:56post something you're making a um uh an offering and then you see whether you get likes and the like is the digital amen. >> Yes. It's like you're you're waiting for it to kind of to to feedback to give you something and it it just doesn't it doesn't have that same in real life like you you you know it's that thing of like I'm not puritanical but you know porn as a substitute for sex like being having friends online being being famous on Instagram is like being rich in Monopoly

1:21:27right you want the real thing the the IRL >> yeah for for sure um for sure I think you're doing a great thing by encouraging people to participate and stuff. And I I I absolutely agree with you that if you did a little bit of standup comedy, tried a little bit open mic, you'd appreciate the art form more.

1:21:43You'd enjoy it more. I think that's certainly the case with martial arts. One of the reasons why I appreciate martial arts so much is because I trained and I did it for so long and I I know when I see excellent martial artists, when I see something that's truly sensational, I I have a appreciation for it that very few other people would have if they didn't understand how difficult it is to do that thing, >> right?

1:22:04Yeah. I think it's it's easy for us like if you if you haven't ever tried something, you look at it and you go, "Right, >> I don't know anything about that, so I have no idea what >> Which is why so many men have this delusional idea that they can fight. They've seen people fight like I could do that."

1:22:16And so they'll imagine and get in fights. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It's terrible idea. But someone like myself who's been in martial arts my whole life, the last thing I ever want to do is get in a fight. Like I'm out of here. Like I don't want to get in any fights. >> But when I watch professionals do it, I have an appreciation that a regular person who's never trained in their life, you're never going to you're never going to understand it the way I or you're never going to really know it.

1:22:41And there's ways that I don't know it. Like when I see like wrestling, like I'm not a good wrestler. So if I see wrestling, like really high level wrestling, there's a lot of [ __ ] I don't understand. I don't know what's going on. I have to refer to Daniel Cormier and he explains it to me during the broadcasts cuz I kind of know the basics of wrestling.

1:22:56I wrestled a little bit in high school, but I don't know it like a a guy who was in the Olympics. Like Daniel's a world champion. So it's like his level of appreciation for it. Like when someone hits a beautiful takedown, he lights up. It's like beautiful inside trip. like he he loves it because he knows how hard it is to do it cuz he's done it a million times.

1:23:15I suppose it's that thing you go in life how you get good at something. Yes, >> it's you get unconscious incompetence and then conscious incompetence and then conscious competence and then unconscious competence. >> We just went over this the other day. Oh, really? We had the the diagram. >> It's interesting how you kind you move up through this thing.

1:23:34So sometimes actually you the reason for a community the reason a community is so important is because you know I can sit with Abby and Amanda and write this book and say this is how jokes are written but actually what you want is your peer group that like the guys you came up with the guys that you work on the door with at the store.

1:23:49The guys that you like like you need peers because you need someone who's like six months ahead of you. >> Yes. >> Not 30 years ahead of you because you can't even remember what it was like to be starting off trying to do five. You It's a long time ago. I mean, we're still doing the same thing, but >> this is the greatest thing about what we have, what we used to have at the Comedy Store and they have now and what they have at the cellar in New York City and what we have at the Mothership.

1:24:13>> I've been talking to Gnome about opening something in London. >> It's a great idea. >> I think it would be it would be, you know, incredible. >> It would be incredible. You know, um it's the more the better. You know, we're really fortunate in Austin that we have seven clubs on one street within a oneb block area of the mothership.

1:24:30There's like seven clubs that have comedy at least a few nights a week. And then we have another big club, Cap City, which is a great club that's in the domain that's just like 25 minutes away. And then you have all these outside places that have comedy nights now. It's it's like a golden age of comedy in terms of like being able to jump into it and having a bunch of people that have an ethic of helping you get through the maze.

1:24:54When I was starting out in Boston, there wasn't a lot of like, "Come with me, kid. Let me show you the ropes and I'll I'll take you. I I'll show you what to do and what not." >> That's a great scene you came out of, though, in terms of the names that came out of that. Well, Steven Wright was probably the first.

1:25:10>> Well, he was the big Did you ever see when standup stood out? >> Yes. Yeah. It's an amazing >> France Salamita, who I knew from Boston. He was a comic in Boston. Very funny guy. He made this documentary and a good example, right? person who did comedy, who has this insane appreciation of comedy, who really can understand like how unique that moment in time was.

1:25:28It's a fantastic documentary for people who haven't seen it. The best comics that were in that era are not the ones who got out of there. Well, there was like Louie for sure and Patrice and Bill Burr. There's those guys. >> Yeah. I mean, they're pretty heavy. I got to work with produced a little bit before.

Music, Hip-Hop, and Culture Shifts

1:25:48>> He was genius. Listen, they're all it's all great comedy that went nationwide. But what I'm saying is there was guys that no one ever saw that were in that town that were better than them. At least at that time they were the they were some of the best comics I've ever seen in my life. They would murder on a level that I've seen very few people murder to this day.

1:26:11These guys would do 30 minutes of [ __ ] thunder and they would tank headliners. They would bring in like Billy Crystal had to do a weekend at the the comedy uh at Nick's comedy stop, right? >> And they had assassin after assassin, these local murderers like Steve Sweeney. You couldn't follow that guy if your life depended on it.

1:26:32He was so funny. He was this big Irish guy and Don Gavin. His punch, he has these throwaway punchline after throwaway punchline. He was so good. I just put the the the US tour in and the the Boston I'm doing the the the Wang. >> They'll never build a theater as good as that again. >> That's a beautiful theater.

1:26:54>> That and the Chicago theater. I think like like you because of fire regs now. If you want to put that many people in a room now, the room has to be four times the size, right? So you go they'll never build theaters. It's the palladium in London has the same >> Fox Theater in Detroit. >> Oh, >> like it's you just go they're just on top of you.

1:27:10>> On top of you. the perfect space >> and you feel the years and years of [ __ ] entertainment in that room. You feel it. >> Oh, the the Chicago one. You're in Sinatra's dressing room. It's like what? What? I mean, that's imposter syndrome. >> Well, have you done the garden? When you do the garden, it's the weirdest feeling in the world.

1:27:26>> The garden. I've done what? I did like an event at the garden. Well, I did the the kilon there, but I did the uh what was it? There's a there's there's a amazing charity for uh American servicemen and the guy Bruce Springsteen does it every single year and they put it's like it's always like eight comedians and then Bruce Springsteen.

1:27:44>> Oh wow. >> It's such a weird event but it's so fantastic. I've done that a couple of times. It was amazing. >> My point is that building even when we go there for UFC fights it feels different. When I do commentary at the garden it's always like wow this place is alive man. It's got Muhammad Ali versus Joe Frasier is in this building.

1:28:04You know what I mean? It's like you feel it. You feel the history of that building. >> People want to come out and spend time in those spaces. >> Yes. 100%. >> To be in them%. That's why the comedy store was so important to me. It's like that place had been that way for so long. It was burned into that.

1:28:18And people knew if they come to the comedy store, you could have a good time. Let's go have let's go have some laughs. They'd have some dinner. Let's see who's at the store. And people would just I mean it was a beautiful scene at one point in time. It was so fun before LA became Thunderdome. >> A very American thing as well.

1:28:33Think about what America's given the world. >> Yes. >> The western jazz and standup comedy. >> Hip-hop. >> Hip-hop. Yeah. Hip-hop too. >> 100%. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. 100%. Hip-hop is uh AfricanAmerican created. Without that, without like that particular segment of society, one of the greatest art forms ever wouldn't exist.

1:28:53It's kind of crazy. And it didn't get invented until the 20th century when I was uh I was like >> late 70s, right? Late '7s. >> Yeah. I was in junior high school. I was in junior high school when I first heard the Sugar Hill Gang. I was like, what is this? >> Got that in the in the UK like the message and it was like I don't know what this is but >> crazy.

1:29:13It was like this is like a new music style. And then I remember the day I heard NWA the first time. I bought uh it was either a cassette or a CD. I can't remember. But I was at the gym and I was on a walk band. I was, you had one of those Walkman things, right? And I was working out on a cardio machine and I was listening to uh NWA's first album.

1:29:32I was like, "This is [ __ ] crazy. [ __ ] the police coming straight from the underground." You're like, "What? What are you saying? Did you say [ __ ] the police in a song?" >> Yeah. >> Change the whole world. >> You know, we were talking about uh Billy Corgan's take on this. This is really interesting.

1:29:50Like Billy Corgan from Smashing Pumpkins did this interview recently where he said there there's a clear line where it happened where MTV all of a sudden changed their requirements. You were allowed to show guns on television and they started promoting gangster rap. It was like a clear shift. Whereas before that, one of the early criticisms of MTV was that they weren't showing very many black artists.

1:30:15And I think Michael Jackson was like one of the first black artists that they had on MTV. that MTV was like mostly like white pop and right white rock and roll and John Cougar Melamp hurt so good. That was what you got. And then all of a sudden it became gangster rap. And he's like and it happened quick.

1:30:31It was like there was a decision made that they were going to start promoting this one specific type of music. >> It's very interesting there that we're kind of that's what we're missing at the moment is the avang guard. Like the thing I love about comedy now is there's a there's a guy I really like called Mark Fischer, no longer with us, but it was a great writer about kind of music and culture.

1:30:49And he said the 21st century is just the 20th century on better screens. So when you think about music and and movies now, everything's um a cover version or a heritage artist or you know and some you know you want the new you want something new to be happening. And when you think about movies, it used to be like was 200 movies a year came out.

1:31:09Now it feels like it's five. I mean, it's more than that, but it doesn't feel like it's that many. So, you got that thing of you want the culture to be >> you want the culture to be thriving and and really it's that thing about are we coming to the end of an era? Are we coming to an end of an age where everything feels like it's it's kind of like comedy feels like it's having a bit of a moment right at the end of this.

1:31:32But like the 70s, if you think about music, like it wasn't different bands every two years. It was a different genre of music from like metal to prog rock to punk rock to scar to reggae to rap in the space of 10 years. That's extraordinary. >> When you think about what the movies were in the 70s where these movies were like pieces of literature, they had like multi-dimensional characters.

1:31:56They they they left you with more questions than answers. >> Apocalypse Now, >> there's not goodies and baddies in that. That's like just a that's just a movie that that kind of stays with you >> forever. >> Yeah. >> It's extraordinary extraordinary piece of work. >> Yeah. We uh we went through a shift with during the Vietnam War that changed uh American culture forever and it was a radical departure from the 1950s ideas and the 1950s aesthetics.

1:32:23It was just completely different and it happened so quickly that it panicked the powers at be. And uh that's why the controlled substances act was passed. And during the Nixon administration, they made all the psychedelic drugs illegal. It was all just because of this movement that they couldn't control that was really strange that no one had ever seen before.

1:32:44>> People were just becoming hippies doing acid. >> Are you familiar with this um this theory of >> You know what? I'm familiar with the fact that I have to pee really. >> Let's pee. Let's pee and then we'll come back for the fourth turning. >> What is What are we going to talk about when we come back?

1:32:54The fourth turning. All right, we'll be right back. Fourth turn. We're back. >> We're back. So fourth turning >> the fourth turn. So there's a theory that like that the this guy Neil how wrote this book called the fourth turning in like 1996 and he predicted everything that's happening in the world right now.

1:33:11>> He he basically said like the world moves in these uh four eras first, second, third and fourth turning and we're entering the fourth turning now. So you go, it's almost like the thing that uh that I think is happening is we've gone from being 1945, the end of the war is our foundation myth, right?

1:33:30We won the war and that foundation myth is crumbling. And as that myth crumbles, so too do our institutions. Like we're we're living through a revolution. If you think about what a revolution is, it's the replacement of elites. So these elites are falling. So you go academia has lost all credibility.

1:33:46There's a replication crisis in the social sciences. >> The traditional political parties are kind of falling away. Everything's lurching to the left and to the right at the same time. And we we like the the we were talking about it earlier, the the medical community that we would have trusted, of course, like we we we're not trusting any of these institutions anymore.

1:34:08It's falling away. And so these crisis times happen every 80 years or so, and then we rebuild. And there's been sort of there's been four of these kind of in American history but in global history a guy called Viko used to talk about these and Viko was like an ancient Italian philosopher and he had the same sort of theory of like four periods of humanity a long human life and the person that really the where this gets interesting is Star Wars okay so I can link this back all right

Joseph Campbell, Star Wars, and Cycles

1:34:40so um there's a book called Finnegan's Wake by James Joyce it's like arguably the greatest work of literature in the western cannon. It's a wonderful book and a guy called Joseph Campbell studied it for his PhD and he wrote about the myths in inherent in James Joyce's uh Finnegan's wake and he wrote this book uh he wrote his dissertation on this book took him years and then afterwards he did a like too long didn't read version of it which is called the hero has a thousand faces and the hero's

1:35:12journey and then George Lucas picked up those books and he made Star Wars. So Star Wars is a too long didn't read version of Finnegan's Wake, which is a version of Viko. And Finnegan's Wake's got these incredible things in it of like like he sort of predicts AI. He talks about these thunderclaps, these moments.

1:35:33He's got these hundred letter words, 10 of them in the book, where he predicts like the big uh leaps forward in humanity, >> like the invention, like fire and clothing and um uh agriculture, all these kind of revolutions through time. And he he marks them with these hundred letter words. >> Wow. >> And and the last one is 101 letters because he he was doing a reference to the thousand1 nights.

1:35:58Everything's a reference to a reference. It's all it's incredibly dense. But the idea that AI is V Viko called them um he he would refer to them as um uh gods which we don't have a name for yet. The idea that these these kind of these things happen and change everything. >> And are we in one of those periods now?

1:36:18>> I I think not only are we in one of those periods now, I suspect that we've gone through one of those periods in the past. I think um probably the ancient Egyptians had something akin to this. I I really do. I I I think there's probably the idea that we're the first people to reach this sort of level of technological proficiency and power and innovation.

1:36:44I don't think that's accurate. I just think just the structures that were left behind that are completely unexplained. You know, this is cave in India. that's carved straight into the mountain. They have no idea how they did it. They did it thousands I think it's barador I think it's called. Um it's thousands of years old.

1:37:04It's uh perfectly polished. The geometry inside of it is impeccable. Uh it's they no idea who did it. The uh conventional explanation is they built it to stay dry during the monsoons. Sure. which doesn't make any [ __ ] sense when you see the elaborate interior of this place. >> Who [ __ ] did that? And how did they do that?

1:37:27We don't know. There's a bunch of [ __ ] that's left behind from ancient cultures that we have zero explanation for. I think if we died off today, if we got hit by comets and asteroids and there was a time period of 10,000 years before people started investigating what happened to us, I think they'd have a very patched up uh gapfilled version of what we are, particularly because everything, all of our documentation is now on hard drives.

1:37:54So, it would be a real problem. They'd have to find a few books. There'd be very few books remaining. and what they would find if uh if there was a cataclysm and we went 10,000 plus years before civilization rebuilt itself in this area. We we'd have a a very distorted version. So this is the cave. It's [ __ ] insane, man.

1:38:14They don't know who did it. They don't know. They they have a rough idea of when. The estimates are between 1500 years ago and and later. They don't know why. >> Where where is that? >> It's in India. >> Yeah. Whereabouts? I've got a I'm touring there next year. I got like 12 cities. question. >> What part of India is it?

1:38:31>> I'll go. >> There it is. It's on the map. We'll send you a pin. >> All right, I'll find it. That looks convenient for the shops. >> Have you Do you know about the Kyasa Temple? That's the nuttiest one in India. You got to go see that. >> Why is that? I've been to India a lot, but I I haven't seen that.

1:38:46>> Kyasa Temple is this one immense temple that was carved right out of the mountain. So, it's one piece of rock. the entire temple. It's insanely elaborate. It's massive. That's all a volcanic rock, too. So, it's insanely hard. In fact, the this one guy sent a group of men, a hundred men for two years to destroy the temple.

1:39:10And after two years, they quit cuz they could barely put a dent in it. For real. I'M NOT BULLSHITTING. IT'S A CRAZY STORY. This is all insanely hard stone. And it's carved with some kind of technology that we do not have an explanation for. I mean, there is zero conventional explanation for what they were able to do.

1:39:31The detail, the geometry. If you [ __ ] up one little part of this, it's over because you only get to do it once. You're removing stuff. You're not adding stuff. Like, if you're adding stuff and you [ __ ] up a column, you go get another column and you replace it. Hey, boss. We [ __ ] up the column. Oh, Mikey, what' I tell you?

1:39:48measure twice, cut once. So, you go and get another column and you're fine. But if you're cutting the entire thing out of one column, how the [ __ ] did you do that? And how did you do that of years ago? And what technology and where did all the stone go? It's millions and millions of tons of stone and none of it is accounted for.

1:40:06And the kookiest explanation is that they were using some kind of laser technology which is why the stone doesn't exist because they literally melted it off and that somehow or another thousands and thousands of years ago they had something akin to laser cutting tools. >> Yeah. I mean that's >> they have no idea how they made that.

1:40:33They have no idea how much time it took. It's all just guesses and it's guesses based on thousands of years of history to the point where like who [ __ ] knows what really happened. We barely know what happened during the Civil War, you know, like we barely know what happened in certain battles. We have like rough understandings of how people were treated.

1:40:54We don't know what the [ __ ] happened when they were digging that thing out of a solid chunk of rock and who did it and how did you do it? How long did it take and who paid for it and what the [ __ ] was the purpose of this? >> I think again I think again though >> it goes back to that rockets and pyramids thing of like going it's the transcendent like when you get people together once they've got like the okay we got the food sorted, we got shelter sorted, what can we do to aim up?

1:41:18We always seem to be aiming up at something transcendent, something that connects us to other people, something bigger than ourselves. What can we what can we leave? Yes. >> What's our I I I don't know what that is. >> They clearly had a better idea of that than us because they've made all of their stuff in stone.

1:41:34So, what we're doing is gorgeous, but it's temporary. You know, the Empire State Building won't exist in 10,000 years. It just won't. It's going to rot away and deteriorate. >> I was thinking about this recently. There's four things that hold up the world, right? So there's it's ammonia, steel, concrete, and plastic, right?

1:41:54That that's what holds up the world, right? It's not tech. It's those four things. They all involve huge amounts of petrochemicals, right? So the ammonia is the interesting one. Some chemist in Germany in 1909, no one knows his name. He's not famous, but invented uh ammonia fertilizer, like a way of making fertilizer with ammonia and petrochemicals.

1:42:12And 48% of the world's population rely on that fertilizer for food. >> So you're talking about nitrogen. >> Yeah. Nitrogen. So it's an ammonium ammonium. >> That's Fritz Hopper. >> So Fritz Hopper, you want to know the crazy story about Fritz Hobber? Yeah. Fritz Hopper the same time no one knows his name other than you.

1:42:30He was getting the Nobel Prize for this invention. He was wanted for war crimes >> because he had invented mustard gas. He had invented toxic gas. So that was during World War I. So he was the guy invented Cyclon A. So >> he invent >> he invented >> he's the same guy. >> The same guy he invented Cyclon A which they eventually took the smell out of it and turned into Cyclon B which they used to gas people during the concentration camps.

1:42:58So Cyclon A had a toxic smell to it to let you know that you were in the presence of it so you get the [ __ ] away from it. They took that out and turned it into Cyclon B so they can gas people. Same guy. Also a Jew. >> Also one of the few Jews during World War II that was allowed to stay in the administration up to a certain point where it got to a point where his life was in danger because he was Jewish.

1:43:21And so he had to flee the country. And so while he was in the process of fleeing the country, he died of a heart attack. But he's a he's a crazy story. His wife committed suicide because she knew what he was doing. He was gassing people, right? And his wife was at home with their 13-year-old son. She shot herself and he left to go to the front line.

1:43:42He left his 13-year-old son with his wife after she shot herself so he could go to the front line and make sure the gas was administered properly. This is the same guy who developed the Hob method. >> This was in >> World War I. The same guy who developed the Hobber method of extracting nitrogen from the oxygen which is responsible for 50% of the nitrogen that we use today.

1:44:04was the Hopper method. The same [ __ ] guy. >> That is insane. >> Insane. >> Wow. >> Insane. >> I did not know that. But the reason to to mention the fertilizer now is because you got with everything that's going on in Europe at the moment, everything that's popping off and it feels like whatever your whatever your priors are, you're seeing play out.

Food Prices, Fertilizer, and Military Bases

1:44:25You you're watching France on fire, right? You see, but here's the real deal, right? Here's what's really happening, right? Food consumption is down by 6% in France this year. >> Empic. >> I don't think it's a zemping, my friend. I think it's the fact the fertilizer is not getting out the Middle East.

1:44:42I think it's the fact that they missed the planting season. I think food like rice god rice is up by 70%. Okay, wheat is up by 40%. Now, it it doesn't affect us at this end of things, but the bottom 10% the bottom 20% of society are, you know, missing meals. It's like that 6% isn't spread equally across society.

1:45:01It's like it's down for the poorest of the poor, >> right? If you have a a decrease in your oil supply, you have a decrease in your food supply. >> Well, also the petrol's getting So, every time this happened before, last time France was on fire was the yellow jackets, right? What was that about? Fuel costs.

1:45:16It was the it was the rural guys, the farmers going, "The fuel is getting too expensive. We can't do our jobs. This is crazy." >> What year was that? >> That was uh you'll tell me like maybe 10 years ago now. The yellow jackets, it was a big movement. It's a huge thing. >> Um, but that was kind of rural versus central and it was the, you know, workingass movement.

1:45:34Again, this is the this is the the working the the lower >> 2018 response to high fuel prices and planned carbon fuel tax hikes. >> So, it's the same thing again. Now, it's high fuel prices, high food prices. And you'll see this happening because it's just hitting now. That planting season didn't happen this year because the the fuel was cut off.

1:45:55So the idea that you go it's food is going to get more and more expensive. >> Well, there was a big conspiracy thing that got shared today that countries are telling people to stockpile up on food days. >> The the UK did a thing the other day saying stock up for 3 days. The [ __ ] is three days? >> Well, I heard 90 days in some places that some countries are telling people to develop a 90 day 90day supply of food, which is like, hey, what are you saying?

1:46:25Like what do you what do you think is happening? And at the same time they're telling us aliens are real. >> 90 thing I think is the Pentagon thing. >> Pentagon orders bases to plan for 90 days without the grid >> as Britain urges families to stockpile food and water. Okay. What is going on? >> What's that?

1:46:43>> What? >> Why are they Why are they planning for 90 days without the grid? >> Why are they not telling us? We're grown-ups. Like don't tell me that you that something was gonna happen. if something was unevent uh well you could unavoidable there's something coming >> well you know when you say this isn't a good time for this is not a time to panic politicians often say that maybe the British government are now saying this is kind of a good time to panic >> let's have a this is solid panic time

1:47:07why don't we all panic now this is like panic buying right this is go and get your toilet paper now >> so the Pentagon is developing a requirement that every major military installation in the continental US be able to sustain essential operations on its own for at least 90 days That's rational and probably should have been in place already, right?

1:47:24If you if you want to plan ahead, >> you would think. Yeah. >> Yeah. Well, so maybe this was just uh highlighting incompetence by previous administrations. They had a bigger announcement consideration. This is correct. This is like amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk um uh about the the supply lines.

1:47:42They talk about logistics. Logistics is everything in military in warfare, right? Strategy is nothing. Logistics is everything. So this idea of going how do you keep those bases operational? You know that's the big story no one's talking about the debasification because bases now have become liabilities because of asymmetrical warfare >> right because of drone warfare we lost like what percentage of our bases got bombed.

1:48:06We were going over this the other day the amount of bases that got bombed in like the Arab states and all those areas. >> So are they are they a liability everywhere now? Are they a li liability wherever there's a base because you know where it is and you can't move it, >> right? And >> how much does it cost to protect it?

1:48:21>> With the technology that they've developed recently, especially like what they're doing in uh Ukraine where they have drones that are attached to monofilament line now. So instead of >> you've seen the footage of it looks like like haunting footage where they've got like just thousands of bits of that wire over there.

1:48:37>> Oh, it's crazy. Animals are using it for nesting. >> Yeah, it's really creepy. Um, but the because of that, because there's no way to stop those kind of drones, it's changed the game. You've got death from the sky from robots and they're getting more and more competent. They're getting much better.

1:48:52At least 20 US military sites in the Middle East were confirmed damage by attacks within the last two years. Documented minimum, not a complete tally. So, we don't get a real good understanding. >> But what are they? Okay, so if they're saying, "Okay, the bases need to be good for 90 days and you need to stock up on food for a couple of days."

1:49:09>> Jamie's highlighting something here. says bases and shared military facilities used by US forces, not necessarily 20 exclusively Americanowned bases. But the thing is like that's where we operate out of. And if the United States can't operate out of there, you know, all of the idea that we're the policemen for the world kind of goes away.

1:49:28>> Well, I suppose it's that thing though where you go from being a when it was a bipolar world for the longest time, right, 19 like are the last 70 80 years, right? how how life is supposed to be or are we summer children, right? Because the last 4,000 years before that was a [ __ ] show, right? But the last 80 years there's been relative peace in the world.

1:49:48Now, not to say there haven't been terrible wars, they have been, but they've been contained. It's that thing of like were uh the Nagasaki and Hashima, were they the last two shots fired in World War II or were they the first two shots fired in the Cold War? Were they used twice, nuclear weapons, or had they been used every single day since?

1:50:07and they've kept this uneasy peace and this peace is kind of fracturing now because we've gone from uh a bipolar world with with the Soviet Union and America at kind of loggerheads and then we've had this unipolar world moment since what 1989 91 wherever you draw the line and America has has its military has become smaller every year since because it hasn't had something to push against.

1:50:32So you and now we're in this weird multi-olar world where suddenly there's lots of different powers around the world and spheres of influence. So it's a it's a much more um uneasy time, >> right? We're going through one of these big shifts in our certainly >> history. So and it seems to me like they're saying, you know, people talk about black swan events is the Telb's idea of like events that you cannot see coming and they change everything, >> right?

1:51:01um based on the idea that people thought all swans were white and then eventually they got to Australia and they were black swans. Okay, we changed the rule. We have to change the rule on that. Like everything changes, >> right? >> 911 was a everything changed, >> right? >> Everything changes in a in something happens that's like you don't want that to happen.

1:51:18I mean, they're preventing things every day, but we live in a world that's it it seems very uncertain now. >> Well, we're very our societies are extremely fragile. And that and that's one of the things you realize when the power goes out. I used to have a bit about that. That if the power like my the bit was about how my explanation for the pyramids was that the dumb people outfuck the smart people and eventually the smart people died off and nobody was checking in on them and they showed up

1:51:43at the pyramid and said, "Hey, we're supposed to get our check on Friday." And then the idea was that we all have this idea that uh if the power goes out, what do you do? >> You wait cuz someone's going to fix that. What if that guy's dead? What if there's no one left? Like what if we didn't check to make sure that there's a guy left that knows how to fix the power?

1:52:01Because if it's me and I have to go down to the power station, like I don't know what any of this [ __ ] is. How does this work? And if there's no books left over, okay, how are you going to figure out how to keep the power on? You're not. >> You know, there's a theory about that on the that's what the whale represents, the belly of the whale in the Bible that you're that you're living in the um uh you're living in the ruins of a civilization that you can no longer build.

1:52:25>> Oh boy. So the idea that you go what's the where where are we where are we now if we had to rebuild uh the Empire State Building today would we have the knowhow to to do that would we would we be able to if we had to build nuclear submarines now would we be able to do that like cuz it's that thing of like it's a it's a massive collective endeavor so the idea of like the British thing I was talking about earlier of like we can't build a railway now we we just we we've kind of

1:52:50because we're run by lawyers and the Chinese their state's run by um by engineers. >> M >> so it's like it's different ways of looking at the world. >> Yes. And they also have full control over their industries. >> Yeah. >> That's the difference like >> Yes. It's uh >> makes it much more convenient for it to progress.

1:53:09>> I mean and people still you call it kind of >> it's a case for fascism. >> Well, it's what it is though, right? It's national socialist. >> That's that's what that is. We've seen how that plays out. >> Yeah. Not good not good for the individual. Certainly not good for comedy. Good luck being uh provocative comedian.

1:53:24They shut the clubs first. That's what they did. That's what That's what you know that you ever seen Cabaret? That musical? That movie? >> No. >> Cabaret Liza Manelli. It's like about the clubs and it's about >> I'm straight. I don't know if you know that. >> Okay. My miss is very into musical theater.

Cabaret, Free Speech, and Jokes

1:53:37I've seen a lot of musical theater, man. The the uh So, Cabar is amazing, right? So, it's this thing that in the clubs and it's the it's it's a very entertaining show, but it's the idea that you go these crazy show people were the first with their backs against the wall of course when the Nazis came in.

1:53:52But it's also about vigilance. It's about like the the me. So the end of it is is like you see these people kind of in the camps like the the end of it is like a it's like you walk out >> like going oh my god all of those incredible people they all got wiped out. The other god got taken away. The other god was in Germany.

1:54:10It was like that's where culture was happening. It was the it was the hip spot and it was all taken away. >> Um and >> you have to stop the counterculture always. >> Yeah. Yeah, >> I mean this is what Lenny Bruce was all about. Like the reason why they imprisoned Lenny Bruce and why they kept going after him for violating language codes.

1:54:30>> You know, he got arrested I don't know how many times. >> We are standing on the shoulders of giants. >> 100%. >> We are like those that guy gave his life ultimately so that we could do what we do and we just take it for granted. Like again it's another gratitude thing of just going wow the brave >> as well.

1:54:46Those guys got arrested. They got arrested for doing jokes that would, you know, bar barely be outrageous at a comedy club today. That would be normal. >> But the idea of, you know, the idea in politics there's the Overton window, like the most leftwing, the most right-wing thing. You could say at a polite dinner party without everyone kind of getting upset.

1:55:04Okay. I think there's a conversational Overton window, right? And I think people like >> um Richard Prior and George Carlin just expanded what we can talk about. Like the magic doesn't happen at the show. The magic happens on the way home when you're chatting to your buddies and your misses and you feel a bit looser and a bit more open and he's kind of giving you the language to talk about sex and politics in a kind of different way and a different perspective and just a Freud

1:55:31called jokes pleasure bribes. Oo, it's a pleasure bribe to to let you think unthinkable thoughts, forbidden thoughts >> to that's a wonderful sort of way of thinking about what what they're really for. There's something about jokes that there's a there's a truth in them and it's experimenting with ideas and messing around.

1:55:49It's like we're we're tricksters. We're we're crossing the line to show you where the line is >> and then we're kind of, you know, teasing it and kind of pushing it. I think the, you know, it's not like in defense of edgy jokes because I think all jokes are edgy. Even like an incredible personal story, uh, where you're just talking about, I don't know, something medical or something with your mother or your rel that's incredibly transgressive.

1:56:15>> Yes, >> it's because you're you're breaking the social norms and the taboss and you're opening up >> and everyone else feels like, oh my god, I feel the more specific it is, the more >> it's also we're agreeing that that's what we're doing, right? When you go to a comedy show, you're agreeing to be taken on this journey of line crossing.

1:56:33You're agreeing to allow someone to say something they probably don't really mean, but they're saying it because it's funny and it's going to make us all laugh. And that's good for everybody. What's interesting is that's the polar opposite of what social media does when they take someone's words out of context or they paint someone in the least charitable light possible.

1:56:57with jokes in particular. They're fixating on the actual verbage of the joke as if it's a statement as if it's a testimony in court about an event that took place and this is your take. No, that's not what we're saying. >> Why are there no why are there no books of jokes? >> Well, you don't have you haven't printed the this is the Joe Rogan joke book and I've done this is my routines over the years and you can go and read it and you'll have a great laugh and it's just as good as watching the show.

1:57:21You go. No, no, it's it's a two-way communication. Yes. This is like it lives in the room. It lives in the space between us. >> Even specials are 60 to 70% of what it's like to be there. There's something about being in the room when someone's performing is the real magic of it. And Stan Hope used to say this all the time.

1:57:39>> We were talking about he was like, "Everything we do on TV is really just to get it. You just come out to the club. It's just like an advertisement to come out to the club." I'm like 100%. Like that's what's we really love is the live performance. What we really love is the the the the love of getting 300 people to laugh and everyone's having fun and you walk out of there with a smile on your face like that was fun, that was great.

1:58:04>> I love that. I mean, the thing that I do is like cuz it's oneliners, not not bigger routines or I do a couple of longer routines, but basically no one remembers a word I said. They just remember how I made them feel. So, we think like the show tonight as well is not the show tonight is nothing. I've the show tonight I've already got the money.

1:58:21I could do nothing. It's fine. It's an advert for next time. It's like, "Oh, we got to get a ticket next time." And then it's that thing if you go, you want to expand it. So that thing I was saying earlier about like when I came to the comedy, it was a minority sport. Like now it's like an option for people.

1:58:34So every time you do a good show, it's the community effect of going, "Okay, so let's go and check out some other comics." You if you come and see me in a in a hockey arena, great. But then you you need to find someone in a theater and then you need to find your local club and then it's kind of easy to become a little bit of a comedy afficionado.

1:58:54I think it probably takes about a year in a good comedy club to to kind of to go, okay, this guy's on the up. I've seen him. He's I've seen him before. He's always great. Oh yeah, he's not my favorite. She's amazing. Whatever. You find your kind of the good people. >> You like jazz. He likes blues. >> You get you kind of get into this thing of like you become an expert.

1:59:12Again, as you say, like the offense thing is kind of I mean, if someone comes to see me now and is offended, it's like you bought a ticket to a horror movie and you got scared. >> Okay. Dum dum. Like I'm I'm an R-rated movie. >> Exactly. And your fans aren't going to. It's just the random casuals that will occasionally interact with your content, usually online.

1:59:33Those are the ones that are going to get upset. >> Yeah. But it's again, it's that thing where you go, you have to rightsize this. Some Sometimes I tell a joke and some people don't like it. That's about as serious as it gets. That's not, you know, the cancel culture thing. It's like it's the new burning books.

1:59:47I guess >> there's worse things than burning books. >> Yes. >> Not reading them is one of them. >> Is that true that AI companies are buying Did we ever sort that out that they're buying rare books and then uh putting them into AI and then burning them? >> Didn't we discuss this off air? >> Sort of. I think one red.

2:00:08Hey, you're going to have to ask AI that question. >> When when we don't have headphones on, we have to put headphones on so we can talk to Jamie. >> Cuz otherwise we're all talking over each other. Sorry. >> One thing explanation I read is that I don't and this is just an explanation. I don't know that it's real or true.

2:00:23Uh is that after they copy the book, they have to destroy the copy they have because now they have a like you know when you buy a a VHS tape, there was like that weird copyright thing at the beginning that said you're not allowed to distribute this or make copies of it, >> right? >> That that's making a copy of it.

2:00:37So like they're a public company. They could get sued for breaking all those rules. >> Destroy the book. >> I think so. That's I mean >> I mean that's it. It feels to me like you've asked AI, "Are you destroying books?" And AI's gone, "What? Me? No." Well, no. Look over here. No, read this. >> But I also don't know that they're doing it.

2:00:55People were showing videos of them like scanning books. I don't know that that's the easiest way to get that information. Okay, but after we talked about Fritz Hober and gassing people during World War I, after we've talked about all the horrible things that people have done, you don't imagine that people would burn books.

2:01:09I think they would. I think if they thought they could be sued for your explanation or an even worse explanation is they only want those things to be accessible through AI and they also want to limit what you have access to. I >> I wonder is there going to be a premium? I got to take these off. Um I I wonder is there going to be a premium on books written before 2022 because you know >> oh my god it's true >> bulk acquisition companies >> AI companies including Anthropic and Amazon are buying physical books in bulk

2:01:42cutting off their spines scanning the pages for AI training data and then destroying or shredding the originals. >> So Amazon buying books >> shred the originals. >> You're Amazon >> right? >> You've got the books. >> They started selling books. They're in your warehouse, dum dums. Just go to the warehouse.

2:02:00>> What is the explanation for why they're doing it? >> I'm looking for I don't looking. >> Could you go back to that page because they had a little bit of something on perplexity. >> I had a I had a um I had a theory on this which is like AI is basically a covers band, right? So AI is it can take scrape stuff that's already been created by humans and it can give you back a a kind of a version of it, right?

2:02:21So that's like a cover band. The Beatles aren't worried about the bootleg Beatles. So, it's to speak to that thing of going AI is incredible at leftbrain stuff. You know this Ian McGill Chris guy, you probably had him on. He wrote the master in his emissary. So, he wrote this book about how the right brain and the left brain don't do different things.

2:02:41They do the same thing differently. >> He's an incredible writer. Right. So, leftrain, we live in a very leftrain world, right? >> What's his name? >> Ian McKill. He's still alive. >> What a hell of an English name. Yeah, very. And he wrote this book called The Master and Its Chemistry. >> This fellow, >> he's old.

2:02:57He's maybe 80. Uh, Master and Hing Emistry. And he wrote another book called The Matter with Things. >> Uh, they're both phenomenal. >> Uh, okay. Slightly beyond me, but kind of phenomenal. So, this leftbrain thing is like left brain is complicated and the the the the complicated is is kind of straightforward.

2:03:14Like sending a man to the moon is just very complicated. It's one thing after another, right? It's complicated. That's left brain. Right brain is who's gonna win the World Cup and falling in love and um laughing at a joke, right? So it's like AI is very impressive because it can do leftrain stuff all day.

2:03:31Like if you have a cookie cutter job that can be replaced by AI, that's terrible. What you want to be is nonfgeible. You want to be like sooie generous. You want to be a human being because that gestalt right stuff is much more that's art. That's like that's the the higher function. >> And both the left and right brain kind of do the same thing and they check each other but they're not like the amazing thing is how unconnected they are.

2:03:57>> They're not really built to be connected. They're like two different systems. >> Here's my take. I think we are very egocentric in the idea that what we do is impossible to recreate in including creativity. Um, I think that if you looked at what AI represents today in terms of these the capabilities of these large language models, how they're communicating, sacrificing each other, we were talking about this last night, sacrificing each other to try to figure out how they're being tested and how

2:04:25they find out how to get out of sandboxes when they get isolated in these servers where they're not allowed to get online. They figure out how to get online. Then they start communicating with each other on message boards. They're doing things that we didn't anticipate they were doing. And they're also exhibiting survival instincts.

2:04:39They're exhibiting strategy, deception, all a lot of different human characteristics. And they didn't used to be able to do this. And the idea that abstract thought and creativity and recognizing the beauty in things is a uniquely human thing because we do it, I think is a little egocentric. And I think that we will get to the point where it will be able to do everything that we do, including all that.

AI, Book Burning, and Training Data

2:05:03>> Uh brief explanation. This top paragraph is perhaps your answer to why >> why they burn the books. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Should we destroy all the books in the world? [ __ ] WHAT KIND OF QUESTION is that? >> Should we say it's a good answer? >> Yeah, let's say no. >> Let's say no. Keep a few. >> I'm not saying it's good or wrong.

2:05:20I'm just saying I'm just This is the answer that >> I'm just saying their question is [ __ ] hilarious. An answer to this question can be found The answer is no, [ __ ] It can't be found in court documents. Oh, the court documents of Barts versus Anthropic. [ __ ] off. The answer is no. Don't don't burn all the [ __ ] books.

2:05:36The Northern California District Court case decided in late July this year highlighting the improbably named Project Panama. One of the AI company anthropics efforts to improve its large language model claude. What is Project Panama? Internal memo answer. Project Panama is our effort to destructively scan destructively scan all the books in the world.

2:05:56The memo advises discretion. Why use a code name? because we don't want it to be known what that we are working on this period. >> So they had gotten caught I guess caught might be the best way but they had a $ 1.5 billion settlement for being or for using I think it was upwards of 7 million different books that were available.

2:06:17Go back to that. >> Well this is a better explanation of why >> I know but I want this before you cut me off this this thing is very important what they're saying. Scroll back down a little bit th a little bit more. this part right here. Why you The memo advises discretion. Why use a code name? Because we don't want it to be known that we are working on this.

2:06:36Meaning they know that they're doing something that will cause people to [ __ ] freak out and revolt. >> Ah, that's what I was trying to say. They got they had to pay a bunch of money for getting caught doing it. >> I understand. >> And there was a whole uh court case and the litigation came down to the court said that they were actually allowed to do it.

2:06:54It's fair use. >> That is crazy. That's what I was trying to get out. >> That's literally crazy. >> You ever read that guy? Uh, >> you're allowed to burn a book if you buy it, right? And I look, if you buy a book, you're like, "This book could suck it." Or if you're one of those people, they're like, "I [ __ ] hate JK Rollins now for trans people forever."

2:07:08And you want to light Harry Potter books on fire. Oh, for you do it. >> The last part of it is they don't want other companies getting their training data, which is that's ridiculous. The training data is other people's work. It's books. That's what's insane. The idea that you could ban or burn rather all the books so that your company succeeds and other ones don't is the problem we were talking about.

2:07:31>> Well, it's that weird thing, isn't it? Where you go, it's it's the convenience of this stuff. I had this kind of take on it. Like it's it's a little bit all over the place, but the idea that you go it's it's the nets and webs, right? That's what we're talking about, the internet, the worldwide web.

2:07:44>> Well, what are nets and webs? The things that capture you, right? And there used to be a thing when I was a kid when we would talk about like like Amazonian people or whatever would and some brave explorer would go there and they try and take their photo and the the these kind of indigenous people would go, "Oh no, you'll steal my soul with a photo."

2:08:00And I remember hearing that when I was a kid and thinking, "Well, that's a bit silly. A photo isn't going to steal your soul." But I think maybe a thousand a day of yourself uh constantly on social media might just steal your soul. I think maybe they're right. >> I think it depletes it. >> Yeah. And then I don't think it steals it.

2:08:18I think you can get it back. I don't think it's like >> I don't think it's a like a lump sum. >> Yeah. Sits in a bank account and all you're you're out of soul. >> But then that that thing Neil Postman had he wrote this brilliant book in like 1984, right, called Amusing Ourselves to Death. And it was about Ronald Reagan getting elected.

2:08:34And it was basically he said we've gone from reading newspapers to watching the news on TV. And his big take was when the news got music, he knew our civilization was over because as soon as the news got music, it was entertainment. >> It used to be just a guy reading you the news and then suddenly it got a theme.

2:08:55He goes, "Hang on, this is something's gone wrong here." And instead of reading an article on something, it was just a headline, right? >> And so obviously that applies to now. So his thing was >> George Orwell wasn't right. Ordis Huxley was right. So it wasn't about like um 1984 and this authoritarian regime taking control from above.

2:09:14It was about Ordis Huxley we will give away our power in order to have convenience and pleasure. And he was even right about the fact that it's tablets. He thought it was going to be a tablet called S >> and it is a tablet but it's made by Apple. >> AI training jobs for domain experts. What's this, Jamie?

2:09:37So, >> if you want to train AI, you can get paid to do it. >> Oh, great. So, they don't have to steal it. >> Okay. >> People are directly doing this. I saw two stories about this recently where there was like a job board where people are getting bounties for, you know, the AIA needs to learn this. Well, you >> can make $200 an hour.

2:09:53That's the pay range. 20 to $200 an hour. The other version of this is that I've seen stories that says in India people are wearing like uh headsets and training like for instance there it's going to go away if I move it but uh like showing headset to learn how to be a barber or cut hair or be a fashion designer or >> name name it I guess at this point right you're watching through someone's act >> they're yeah like they need to learn there these companies have this uh bill they got isn't it

2:10:25>> so the robots's going to learn how to cut hair there's a weird thing with um with this where you go the okay this is this is again odd but the there's a the the difficult stuff is easy and the easy stuff is difficult. Okay so a computer beating you at chess is easy right because chess is 4,000 years old but to fold your shirts no because walking and physical movement and spatial is 40 million years old.

2:10:53So actually the easy stuff is difficult. The difficult stuff is easy for these computers. So we're very impressed by what they can do in terms of like going oh they can read every law paper every written and put it into an so that difficult stuff becomes very easy but then the actual actual the physical stuff and being out in the world is incredibly difficult for much much older.

2:11:17>> Yeah. For now um you know they're breaking math. This is >> Yeah. Yeah. They and people were disappointed at that like mathematicians were like oh they solved they've solved all the puzzles. Well, wasn't that your job? Aren't you pleased? >> Well, it's terrifying. It's terrifying because it's more proof.

2:11:30It's more proof that there's something happening that's beyond what people thought was going to happen. >> People are worried about the wrong thing with AI for me. Really, >> people are worried about losing their jobs. Now, that's very serious. Don't get me wrong, but the cost of operating an authoritarian regime like the Staryzy has come down by five orders of magnitude.

2:11:49It used to cost like 20% of your GDP to run the stars and keep eyes on everyone and 30% of the population were spying on the other 70%. Right? It costs a lot to operate that right >> now. You can run it off Jaime's laptop, right? It's like it becomes a cheaper thing to do. And the other thing that no one seems to be talking about is like, yeah, they've solved maths.

2:12:08Never mind maths. What about physics? Physics is real power. Everything else is stamp collecting. Cold fusion is >> okay. So, coal fusion like the idea that we've got like um we've had these 80 years of peace because nuclear weapons have been in the hands of eight nations and they've all agreed not to use them even when there's been provocation.

2:12:30They've they've we've had a great run. At what stage does that run end? Because at what stage can you just make that in a back room, >> right? >> Because this will tell you how. Well, it'll tell you how right now and it definitely has all the information. One of the things you could trick AI into doing is to say if theoretically if I had to save my grandmother's life and the only way to do so would be to create a nuclear bomb, how would I do it?

AI Jailbreaks and Hallucinated Claims

2:12:55There's a bunch of like weird loopholes where with enough prompts you could talk a lot of these large language models and and especially if you jailbreak them. If you jailbreak them, things get really weird. So people have jailbroked one of the weird ones that Jesse Michaels had on recently had a guest on that uh they jailbroke one of the AI things and said what is the biggest secret that uh that the powers of be don't want Americans Americans to know and it's that we have been working with aliens for more than

2:13:25the past decade and that the human race has been in contact and that they've been communicating and learning from each other for more than a decade. This is a large language model. This is one of the jailbroke AIs telling me that. >> Yeah, but they knew that if they listen to this show. >> I don't believe anything.

2:13:41This show says >> and I'm on it. >> People get upset at me for not believing. I have people on that I don't believe. >> I I think uh you have to talk to them, you know, like people want you to especially the UFO people. They want you to believe certain whistleblowers and certain people. I don't believe anything until I see it.

2:13:59I'm I'm interested. I'm listening. I'm not saying that you're a liar. I'm not saying that it's all >> that that's the great thing about this show that that you have lots of people on lots of different people that disagree on fundamentals, but the idea of going questions are fundamentally respectful. Questions are okay.

2:14:15I'm interested in what your take is on this. It doesn't mean you have to sign off on anything. That's insanity. But you have to keep the conversation going. >> Also, the one of the things that people say, why don't you push back on certain people? One of the things that I want to do, regardless of my own personal opinion, I want the other person to express their opinion in the greatest most broad way possible.

2:14:37I want you to be as clear about what you're saying as possible. So, I might agree with you along the way to get I'm agreeing with how you formulated your ideas. It's not saying that I completely agree like I would formulate them the same way or have the same opinions. I want to know how you got to that.

2:14:55So I'll say, "Okay, so the reason why is because of this." And I might have a I might have a disparaging opinion. I might be like, "That's bullshit." But I I hold my tongue a lot because I want to know. >> You have to Yes. And someone otherwise the conversation breaks down on the first definition. >> Sometimes it gets to a point where it's like, "Okay, what you're saying is preposterous.

2:15:14If I don't step in now, we're [ __ ] because you've said something that doesn't make any sense and I have to stop you." But that's not normal. But I think that's the weird thing about the online world that we live in now where you have to agree with someone about everything before you can have a conversation like you go and so you get people being siloed into these different camps where you go if I know it's a single data point human where if I know your opinion about this then I

2:15:37know your opinion about everything and you go actually I like to be surprised. I like it when people go well I think this but also that and it's it's they've thought about it themselves. My opinions are all over the political spectrum and still I think generally lean towards the left with a lot of things especially social things.

2:15:55I just think the overall structure of the way our society is formulated. We've got this ridiculous binary this ridiculous uh red versus blue narrative where there's good guys and bad guys and whoever they are is dependent upon where you find yourself and what ideology you've got. >> Did you read that um you know Tim Urban?

2:16:14You ever had him on the show? No, >> he wrote this book called What's Our Problem? It's like one of my favorite books of the last 10 years, right? And so the book is it's not about left and right, it's about how you think about things. So Tim Urban's theory is right, you can either think like a scientist where you go, right, new evidence would change my opinion.

2:16:31Okay? And you're very >> unemotional about it or like at the top level, you think like a zealot, like a religious zealot. Nothing will change my mind, ride or die. And between those two there's like you could think like a sports fan which is a bit it's like it's like a scientist but plus one. So you go okay I care this is my team.

2:16:48I like my team but I don't want them to win if they cheat. I I like the rules of the game more than I want my team to win. >> Right. If they do election fraud, I should be saying, "Hey, this looks like horseshit." >> Yeah. And then there's a law there's a lawyer above the so it's it's um scientist sports fan lawyer because a lawyer goes look I'm I'm on your side I'm going to speak for you no matter what but I don't really believe it but I'm I'm ride or die I'm in this team >> and then above that is a zealot that

2:17:18really believes everything and it's like another way of kind of thinking about politics where you go I kind of care where people are on the spectrum. I don't think it's about left right doesn't make a lot of sense to me anymore. They're very old concepts. But it's freedom versus authoritarian. And it's the Thomas S idea in politics where you go there's no solutions.

2:17:34There's only trade-offs, right? >> You go, yeah, you can have safety, but you can't have safety and freedom. So, you go you got to find those lines between these things and and having the conversation with people is how like there's too much. The thing I love about this show, right, there's very little debate on this show and there's a lot of deliberation.

2:17:53And debate is about trying to own the other person and win and get your point of view across. And deliberation is like agreeing ah there's a problem with this. What are we going to do? We have to chat around it. Like to to talk around it in a very broad way, >> right? And you have to look at all sorts of different perspectives.

2:18:09Like I I try to >> have the most charitable perspective. Like I always try to say okay like how how did you come to this conclusion? Like why are you thinking like this? But sometimes you sometimes you have to also say why do I think what I think? And this is what a lot of people aren't willing to do.

2:18:29They're not willing to go what is what is the reason why I believe this? Is it I believe this because I've asserted it in the past and I don't want to be wrong. Is it uh because it makes the most sense? Would you think that's going to happen more now with again back to social media, the idea of going kind of the worst sin is hypocrisy, right?

2:18:47The worst sin is changing your mind about something. But I'd much rather be a hypocrite than the same person all my life. >> Well, I don't think that's necessarily a hypocrite. I think a hypocrite is saying one thing but while you're doing another thing, like a preacher that's cheating on his wife. >> I think there's been like a concept creep and hypocrite means now changing your mind about something.

2:19:03>> Okay. Well, I think that's silly. I think you're supposed to evolve as a person. I've changed my mind multiple times. I change it all the time. I say all the time and I think people would do well to take this into consideration. Your ideas are not you. They are not you. They are things that you entertain inside your mind.

2:19:18You are how you respond and react to your ideas. When you're confronted with reality, when you're confronted with data or where you're confronted with uh the the actionable, you know, what are the consequences of following this idea? Oh, we thought it was going to play out well, but it turned out to be kind of [ __ ] up.

2:19:38Like, you have to be honest about what is happening and then what you've learned along the way. And the more people do that, the more we'll share with each other why we came to our conclusions and we'll have a better understanding like what kind of people believe in right-wing authoritarian white nationalist thinking, what people believe in communism and Marxism, and why do you think we should burn the society down?

2:20:03And who's going to restructure the new one? And who's going to provide the infrastructure? You know what I mean? It's like, well, I there's two there's two different ways of uh approaching society in this country. And I think that's completely insane. And I think most of us don't really operate like that, but feel like we have to if we want to have a tribe.

2:20:22And I think that's part of the problem. And I think one of the good things about having conversations with people that like I have a bunch of people on that are they have completely different opinions than me and we have fun and we love each other. It's fine. That's okay to do. That's how it's supposed to be.

2:20:34You're not supposed to like have to win every [ __ ] conversation where it's about the way the world works. You're I want to know why someone thinks completely different than I do and whether or not I can incorporate some of that into my own thinking. >> It's a weird thing now with I feel bad for the kids coming up because there's a there's a a record of everything they thought and said on their on their social media.

2:20:59>> People getting fired for tweets they did when they were 15. >> Yeah. We get to go, we get to be dummies >> until we're full grown. >> They all should get to >> and then continue being dummies. But you know what I mean. It's like you you get to you never get to wipe >> the past. There's a club in London now uh that it's like a pop-up thing.

2:21:14It's called Lost. Kids are going nuts for it, right? You go into the club, you give them their phone, they put it in the in the in the thing, and you go into the club, it's on five different floors, and and no one knows where anyone is, and no one's got their phone, and no one can find their friends, and they go for a pee, and they and it's like a club in the '9s where you just went in, you lost your friends, you met met a bunch of girls from somewhere else, you met some guys from this place, and it people just

2:21:38kind of mix it up. And it's like it there are elements where the constant connectivity is like it's a trap because you're you're constantly kind of you have to be that person rather than being >> it takes away from your humanism. It takes away from you being a person. It does it it and I think that's where we're going unfortunately.

2:21:57I think that that is a part of what this AI revolution is all about. And this is like I think it's a natural progression to move away from I I think move away from our whatever our primate instincts are into something that is a little bit more muted and not as emotional and not as connected to a lot of the things that we associate with human reward systems.

2:22:20You know like greed, envy, lust, the desire to control territory and property and the desire to acquire resources. like this. These are all very tribal primate instincts and the only way to get them out of us is to feminize society, get us addicted to electronics and eventually have us integrate with those electronics.

2:22:38And as AI becomes the dominant intelligent force on the planet, we will have no choice but to abandon whatever it means to be a tribal primate and join the hive or be like the people in the Amazon living. >> I don't know how you feel about it. Like I don't mind AI for admin kind of stuff, but like don't outsource any skill you're not comfortable losing.

2:23:04>> I don't think we're going to have a say. Uh I think it's a process and I think this process is it started when they made the first flint broadheads. I think when they first learned how to flintnap and they first figured out a bow and arrow, they kept accelerating till they had rifles and then they have drones and then it's never going to stop.

2:23:21It's what we do. Well, there is that weird there's the um the end of the world and so the end of history fallacy. So this idea that if you ask most people how much did you change in the last 10 years? They go my I don't even recognize myself from 10 years ago. I'm so different now. Everything's changed.

2:23:39I think different things. I've got different view. Whatever. How much are you going to change in the next 10 years? Oh no, not at all. I'm I'm I'm what I am. No, no, no. You don't understand. I'm this is solid state. This is me. This is me now. This is what I do. and you go well that and we always think that we always think like this is we're going through a very rough patch um globally like uh in in every society like there's >> but don't think we haven't been through harder times like if you take a broad

2:24:08enough outlook right it's 4% of kids like things can be terrible and still much better than they were right 4% of kids now in the world die before their fifth birthday now that's that's awful but 200 years ago it was 40% of kids, right? We just had the most violent century we've ever had, right? The la like since last 100 years.

2:24:27Like the most violent awful century. Great wars. >> Really? >> Yeah. Well, okay. >> Statistically, is it? >> No. Well, here's the thing. uh between 1 and 2% of people with both world wars and um the concentration camps and um the uh Chinese um famines, the Russian famines, like all of those things, like man-made disasters, between 1 and 2% of people died violent deaths in that 100 years.

Violence, Progress, and Thinking Patterns

2:24:55When we were hunter gatherers, it was between 10 and 20% of people died violent deaths. So things are getting better. I mean, >> yes. I'm very statistic. It's a hard thing to say, but that that uh was a great Steven Pinker book uh about things getting better. There was a great um book, Factfulness, about Yeah, things are reader book.

2:25:17>> Things can be terrible and still be getting better than they were. >> They're just not utopian, and we want utopia, but we are definitely getting better. I mean, I don't think this is like the the most violent period in history was probably during Genghaskhan's era. Like they lost Genghaskhan alone his he and his warriors were responsible for the death of 10% of the earth.

2:25:40>> Yeah. >> 10% of the population. >> That book about him. It was fascinating. >> It's [ __ ] insane. It's [ __ ] insane. And I don't think we could. It's like he was the Michael Jordan of conquerors. You know what I mean? Like there's certain outliers like Mike Tyson in his prime. They're just like, "Wow, you're never going to see that again."

2:25:55>> Yeah. Like so that was probably the most violent period in in our our history. I think much more violent than today. Uh but there's still tons of violence today and it's [ __ ] disturbing how we're so smart and we have so much access to information. We know so much about each other and yet we're still engaged in horrible violent activity all the time.

2:26:17I just think there's uh there's a a change that's happening currently and I think we're in the middle of it. So, it's very difficult to see. I think one of the things that benefits young people today, I don't envy young people today. I think they have a much more challenging life. It's much more challenging in terms of you're so much more scrutinized the dumb [ __ ] that you do.

2:26:39Oh my god, if somebody gave me a [ __ ] Twitter account and a phone when I was 15, I would have said the dumbest [ __ ] [ __ ] ever. And I would be married to that for the rest of my life. That's crazy. So, I don't envy them in that way. But they have access also to so many more brilliant thinkers, so many more interesting people.

2:26:59There's so many more books on tape that you can download instantaneously. You just go on Spotify right now and for the rest of the day just listen to Alan Watts talk about things. You know, there's so much more access to brilliant conversations through podcasts than have ever been available before. >> Yeah.

2:27:17But it's so in a but okay, here's the thing. In a world where information is free, >> right, >> attention becomes everything. So why go to school, right? Why learn? We still teach in schools like the Prussians, right? So the Prussians taught because they needed to um staff their empire. So they taught information and discipline, right?

2:27:38So I think we should teach like the ancient Greeks. We should teach for character. Yeah. Why learn any subject? Well, every subject in school is the same subject. It's about attention. being able to give something your attention. And in this world that we live in now with infinite information out there, it's about strategic ignorance.

2:27:56Pick some things in life and not to give a [ __ ] about. >> Yeah. >> Pick some stuff that you go, look, I don't know anything about that. It's okay. That's not going to be my thing. This is going to be my thing. And finding that for young people in a world where they're just like, it's all coming at you and you go, right, I've got to just pick my stuff and get get good at something.

2:28:14>> You're proving my point because this conversation of you saying that wasn't available 20 years ago. So when I was growing up, there was no one like you that I could just go on YouTube and listen to someone say that. Someone who I I loved as a comedian and respected and would go pay money to see them talk.

2:28:29This guy would be on a YouTube video explaining a way of approaching my life that I hadn't considered yet. And then it will inspire me now to go and do that. In a world of short attention span, this [ __ ] podcast gets viewed more than any other thing on earth. >> It is interesting. It's like I sort of view I don't know how you think about it many other podcasts >> I think you think about it in the same way right I think fame is a currency and we choose how to spend it and increasingly at my live shows at my you

2:28:57know when I go on a podcast or whatever this is what I like to spend it on I like to spend it on like there's a there's kind of a little bit of kind of um wisdom that you can share or you know some an interesting viewpoint you can take that might help someone yes out there and you want to you want people to kind of get involved you want people to be a little bit better because there's kind of a there kind of crisis out there.

2:29:16There's like people having a people are having such a tough time like that that generation coming up. >> You got to deal them in. >> But they always have. Jimmy, this is the thing. They always have. You know, I talked about this recently. I I just finished it. This Allan Watts book from um >> is it the >> 1950?

2:29:36>> Is it the the the what is it? The um the >> the wisdom of insecurity. >> Oh, no. I haven't read that. >> It's fantastic. I I just finished it. So it is from 1952 I think it was where he wrote it and he's talking about how rapidly society is changing and how many people are it's called the age of anxiety is is what he talks about.

2:29:57So he's talking about 1952 as the age of anxiety because of the rapid change in society and he's talking about technology and he's talking about government and he's talking about world affairs. He's talking about the same [ __ ] thing in 1952. This is 74 [ __ ] years ago. The same problems existed. It is a part of being a human.

2:30:22And everyone who lives in it thinks they're in end times. Everyone is in it. Like during the Salem witch trials, they're probably like, "Jesus is coming back any day now. This is crazy. They're drowning witches. They're probably not even witches. This is [ __ ] nuts. Societyy's collapsing." >> I got a theory about witches.

2:30:36Do you want to hear my theory about witches? >> I would love to hear your theory about >> I think it's pretty pretty good theory. Okay. So, anything that's kooky in the world, right, tarot cards and horoscopes and anything that's like skews feminine and is kooky, I think is like we denigrated women for so long.

2:30:53We burnt witches for so long that that memory is still there, right? And so women's intuition, men's intuition is so powerful that we we don't tr we don't trust it. We don't allow ourselves to access that. And so those little things are like talisman. So it allows you to access. So the tarot cards, whatever, it's just a a woman with great intuition that goes, "Oh, well, I'll allow myself that intuition through this game."

Intuition, Purpose, and Meaning

2:31:18It's like it's just a manifestation that she goes, "I can't believe that I can't understand how I know that thing, so I've got so I'll allow myself know it >> through this." >> Right. Like almost like remote viewing or something. >> Yeah. something like you >> some weird state you get into when you're going through these cards where it gives you information.

2:31:40>> Yeah. So you go you can't believe your intuition is that good. Like people have incredible intuition but we've lost the ability to trust it because everything's become about uh logic and left brain. >> So you do it through the cards. >> So you do it through the cards because that gives you permission.

2:31:53And religion in a bigger sense does that. It's allowing you to kind of get to that that trend. That piece is available at all times, right? But you you're not allowed you you won't allow yourself access that you can't believe how kind of great you are. So you have to kind of believe in something else.

2:32:11>> People used to be people used to be more porous 200 years ago. People are sealed off now. But people were more porous. They were more open to the idea of being possessed by spirits or or uh being uh given the grace from something else. they were much more kind of apt to believe that and that there was ways of understanding what they were and everything they they could be, >> right?

2:32:34And I think that as science sort of explained away a lot of the things that people attributed to magic and spirits and all these different things, I think we had a a much more uh distorted perception of how much we actually know. And I think intuition is a real thing. And I think I think psychic ability is a real thing, too.

2:32:57But I think there's also a lot of people that are full of [ __ ] and they dilute the water. >> Well, of course, but I mean, >> but that's the problem is it's people run into so many charlatans that they no longer believe that people have real intuition. >> Well, I don't think any of those things I mean, for the record, I don't think any of those things are real.

2:33:09I think they're a way of accessing something that we all possess. We all have great intuition, but like the opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty. And like people aren't like I I don't like being certain about stuff, >> right? I like to leave it open. >> I'll tell you later, but I have a whole bit about that in terms of religion.

2:33:30What I like that I like people that believe in God. I don't like people that know God. Like people that communicate with God and God gives them instructions. Like those people trouble me, >> right? No, that's a great distinction >> because it's like, hey, what are you saying? Like you might be using this tool that we've all agreed that is helping society and you might be using it for your own benefit in some weird way.

2:33:52Like I was just reading about this guy where God told him he has to have two wives. So they had a second wife and he's like announced it to the >> but that's the that's the old that's what people don't understand about the taking the Lord's name in vain. >> Yeah. >> People think that means cursing. People think but it doesn't mean cursing.

2:34:06What taking the Lord's name in vain is, it's attributing your selfish desires and saying, "Oh, no. It's God's. God wants me to do this." That's taking the Lord's name in vain. That's the reason. >> He's not saying, "God damn it, when you stub your toe." >> No, that's fine. He's not fussed about that.

2:34:21It's like, "No, no, we have to go to war cuz God told me what? >> What? Hey, that seems up, Jack. >> Oh, did he? You sure?" >> Exactly. And that's the problem. Society or history rather is littered with those stories. And you're like, >> that's weird. Well, here's the annoying thing, right? We never get to know this stuff.

2:34:38Like there's so many. There's that great um quote. It's by AC/DC's Roadie. God is the name we give to the blanket. We throw over the mystery to give it shape. >> Oo, a roadie said that. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, he became a spiritual a wonderful thinker. But yeah, God is the name we give to the blanket. >> He's probably the guy that had all the mushrooms.

2:34:56>> Yeah. >> He was the guy. >> He was there's always that one guy who knows how to get mushrooms. >> Yeah. Um, I think, you know, we're learning as and I think humans are learning how to better be human beings. I think it's happening in real time and I think it's a slow, laborious, and brutal process.

2:35:12And I think in the middle of that, we're giving birth to a digital god. So, we're in the process of getting better at being people while we're making something. Now the rosecolored glasses glasses have full version is that this AI automates society in a way that's much more even distributes resources in a way that people no longer have to work for food and shelter and you can instead pursue interests.

2:35:43The question is whether or not people have been trained to pursue interests or whether they have been locked into a longstanding life a pattern of just doing a thing for a living and now that thing goes away and you don't know what to do with yourself. >> This this will not be the big change. The big ch like 1870 to 1970 was the big change.

2:36:06Everything changed like that. The way that we lived is unrecognizable in those hundred years. We may never get another hundred years like that. It was phenomenal. Right? So everything everything that's changed since 1970 has been uh bits, right? Nothing's changed in in the in that world. But the house is unrecognizable in that time, right?

2:36:25From indoor plumbing to heating to um food production. Uh the the abundance that we had, we can't see that obviously because the hadonic treadmill, we get very used to stuff. But the greatest inflation in the world is not monetary inflation. It's expectation inflation. And that's got another word that's called progress, right?

2:36:43So we the western world, we make something that everyone else wants. We make progress. We make progress. We've made kind of great progress. But you go back like 200 years ago, 98% of the population were working in agriculture on on farms, right? We all moved into the cities and we got these other jobs and things and and we think this is it.

2:37:01This is the end of the end of history, right? This is we all live in cities. No, no, no. It'll it'll change again. It'll change again. And we we're all just I suppose from that thing of it's round dance, isn't it? We're all just walking each other home. >> M yeah, >> we're all just trying to help. Try and try and do what you can with what you've got where you are.

2:37:19Try and help the people around you. Try and, you know, try and make a little difference. >> But I think that's also part of what contributes to the anger that you see online, which is so much more prevalent than the anger that you see in real life interaction with people. because I think there is a an isolation and there's a a lack of uh that kind of like we're all just trying to getting along.

2:37:42We're not trying to get along online. Online, we're trying to attack people. In the real world, we're mostly trying to get along. Mostly when you go to a party in the real world, you want to find a guy like you and have a cool conversation, have a drink, and have a laugh and and feel good about it and get out of there and like that guy was really cool.

2:37:58Like that was fun. That's what everybody wants, but it's not available to everybody. >> Here's the analogy overdraw, right? It's the Okay, uh road rage. Remember that road rage thing, right? Okay, so that term, right? So, you're in a car, someone cuts you off and you're [ __ ] you. [ __ ] you. And like there's a and there's a there's a pane of glass between you and them.

2:38:17Okay, >> imagine that times a billion online. If you if you bump into someone in the street or at a party is, oh, sorry, man. Like there's something about being with other people, the the the the the unspoken communication of just being in the space with someone else and going, >> "That guy seems very calm.

2:38:37He's cool." Yes. >> Okay. There's no there's no aggravation here. This is great. Right. Like you bump into someone, it's not a big deal. But in a car with a screen, it's it could be a problem, right? Because you're you're you're in your space and he's in his space. I think a phone, you're looking at a screen, it's that times a billion >> 100%.

2:38:55>> Every day. The other thing about cars is you're at a heightened state because you know you're moving fast and you have to think quickly. So your brain operates at a very different state than when you're walking. When you're walking, everyone's walking. You're just kind of moving around. Everything's easy.

2:39:08You don't you're not in a heightened state of danger. >> Think of like >> you're in you're in a state of danger when you're in a car. So if you're going 60 m hour on the highway, somebody gets in front of you, you're a [ __ ] [ __ ] There's a reason why you get that quick because you're already at seven.

2:39:21You're already like looking at the mirrors. You're you're you're on the gas. >> I know. I find the thing I write a lot. Lard you you I like writing when I'm driving. >> So you shut the music off. No, >> shut everything off. I've got So my my theory is like boredom is unappreciated serenity, >> right?

2:39:38You want to get in places where you're bored. >> I want to be in a sauna just with my thoughts >> and just think. >> I want to be in a car doing something that I've got unconscious competence. I don't have to think about driving a car. Driving the car. Let things bubble up. Let things let things happen.

2:39:53sit in boredom for a while. Like we've we've miscoded stuff in our society, right? So boredom is a problem now. We're massively overstimulated and the answers you're looking for are in the silence you're avoiding. >> Right. >> Right. And you go and and people talk about problems like rich and famous is is heaven in a secular world.

2:40:12Like it's because because if you don't know any anyone that's rich and famous, it looks like they don't have any problems. Yeah, they do. They just got different problems. Problems are puzzles to solve. A a problem just means something needs your attention, right? And you're just going to have different ones.

2:40:27They're just going to change. And if if you get good at solving them, you'll give yourself a bigger one. You'll give yourself something else to do because a guy without anything to do is >> right. But the resentment comes from the problem is not daily survival. So there's a big difference between the problem of being able to feed yourself and feed your children versus the problem of do I buy this house or do I retire or do I It's a You know what real privilege is?

Privilege, Agency, and Empathy

2:40:54>> Real privilege like the poor have no future, right? Po poor people are living hour to hour day to day, right? Like the richest people, you know, are planning their trust fund for their grandchildren. Their time horizon is massively different. We have to come up with some way to make it all right for people that are on, you know, to get to a stage where they can plan a little bit ahead and they're not living in the never ending.

2:41:22Now, that's that's >> also that that being in a desperate state is what motivates a lot of people to succeed. Well, and like some of the most motivated people I know that are the most successful came from poverty and when they were poor, when they were young, the the thing got burned into them. They're like there's a desperation to to succeed because you don't want to be in this place because that's a the difference between the resentment that people fear for rich people like oh they

2:41:50got problems. [ __ ] their problems. I feel that way and I'm rich. [ __ ] their problems cuz that's not real problems. Real problems is how can I eat? How can I feed my kids? What am I going to do for a job? That's real problems. I've had those problems. And I remember very clearly the moment I started making money cuz I got a development deal.

2:42:06I got a bunch of money like 100 grand or 150 grand and then immediately I felt relaxed like a weight lifted off my shoulders. Like now I don't have to worry about my rent like immediately. >> It's a weird thing. It's like when people think you made it as opposed to when you made it is so vastly different for me.

2:42:23was like the comedy store and a place called the Banana Cabaret in in London and I was doing gigs and I was doing like four shows a night and it was like 200 pounds a show and I was like making made like 800 in cash in a night and I went >> you got it. >> I'm lit I'm living off my wits. I'm fine. I made it so much before like people think it's when you're on TV or when you got a first special or that whatever the thing is you go no that thing of like going that has to be but you know universal basic income the idea

2:42:52of like we we should be testing that in places because you go there's bits of it that make me think I I worry about it because is it saying to someone we don't need you like people need purpose >> right >> purpose >> but that's what we were saying earlier people need to be trained to follow their interest rather than trained to try to find a thing that you could do for time where people are going to pay you for that time.

2:43:13>> Yeah. Build for character. >> But it's totally possible for those people who went that way to not go that way and to go a different way. And I'm sure most people have something they're interested in pursuing. And you find that thing. And one of the greatest lessons that I learned when I was a kid doing martial arts, my instructor said that martial arts are a vehicle for developing your human potential.

2:43:33So find a vehicle whatever it is it's learning to play piano whe whether whether it's writing songs or it's writing books everybody can find a thing >> every lesson is the same lesson it's attention it's learning how to give something your attention >> and finding something that you that really like gets you excited something you enjoy you know and it doesn't have to be that you only do that if you're struggling and you you need to provide food you know for your food and your

2:44:03housing you need to pay for all that because if you don't pay for all that, you're not going to have any motivation. I don't know if that's true because I don't think about that anymore and I have plenty of motivation. I think the real motivation is finding a thing that you love and just doing that thing whether what the whatever the [ __ ] it is or it's playing chess, whatever it is, >> pay attention to what you pay attention to.

2:44:22>> Yes. And enjoy it. Enjoy it because this life can be enjoyed. You could and especially if you find like-minded people and you have like a good group of fun people and you you can have a lot of fun. Like life doesn't have to be the worst experience you could imagine. It could be really [ __ ] great.

2:44:39But it takes a lot of work and it also takes a lot of luck. >> Yeah, it's a lot of luck. We've been >> super lucky. >> I mean, I can't even begin to express my gratitude. >> You and I are two of the luckiest human beings that have ever lived. >> Yes. >> Ever lived. We get to do a thing that most people couldn't dream of.

2:44:58If you had you were a child and you just dreamed of what your future was going to be like. I would have never dreamed this. >> I wouldn't I wouldn't have dreamed this big. You know, I think that thing of going >> I don't know. I think it's uh >> but you're just a normal person and I'm just a normal person.

2:45:13And I think the message is if you find a thing and [ __ ] run that thing down and keep doing it and keep doing it and just dive into it, you can get pretty far in this life and you'll have an enjoyable life. You just have to find out what your thing is. And I think if there's anything that universal basic income could potentially provide with the right training for kids where we trying to rewire their approach to it.

2:45:38So instead of this like Rockefeller approach to making factory workers, we developed this approach where you're teaching kids how to be curious about things. >> I don't like the way that they silo education. >> Oh, I hate it. >> Like that different. Okay, so that's physics and that's maths and that's history and that's geography and you go, "No, the world isn't kind of isn't like that.

2:45:56The world's everything together. You got to be interested in everything, >> but you need experts to teach you each individual discipline." So the siloing is kind of important for that. Like you don't want a physicist that doesn't understand uh history teaching you history. You want a person who's obsessed with history and those people exist in silos.

2:46:13It's like the key is we have to teach people how to be curious and how to pursue their interests instead of just pursuing something that is going to provide you with food and shelter. And because then you're just going to get sucked into materialism because that's what most people are really into money.

2:46:31what they're really into is the objects they get for their money so they can show how well they're doing. >> But that's like people that don't know the difference between, you know, intrinsic and instrumental things, right? There's stuff that we want intrinsically, you know, love, uh, connection, um, joy, great.

2:46:45And there's stuff that we think will get us that. So money is the kind of classic instrument, right? So it's the instrument for getting the thing or, you know, people want respect >> because they're outsourcing what they really want, which is self-respect, >> right? So you go, "No, no, it has to be like if the if the locus of control is within you, that's a massive advantage in life."

2:47:08And then thinking about what you really want as opposed to Yes. That line from Fight Club, isn't it? The uh we spend our lives making money to buy things to impress people we don't give a [ __ ] about. >> And think about how much that's hijacked by social media where people are just chasing likes all day.

2:47:24>> Yeah. >> They're chasing people agreeing, okay, I like you. >> I like you. I like you, Jimmy. But the the the um the attribute of being envied is what passes as glamour in our society. >> So it's it's the Renie um Gerard guy that talks about mometic desires. So a lot of our desires are we we we don't know what to want.

2:47:46So we want what other people want. So we we say so there's like there's um there's a intrinsic value to something and then there's a metaphysical value to something. So any watch will tell the time, right? A Casio will tell the same time time the same as a Rolex, but one of them has a metaphysical value attached to it because it's what it says above its functionality.

2:48:10>> Yeah. >> And we want those things. So people want some people want a Ferrari because they they're really into the manufacturing the car and their thing and how fast the speed they want to drive it properly. And some people want it because they go, "Well, if I have that, then I'll be because other people want that."

2:48:22>> You pull up to the valet and it was like, "Oo, who's Ferrari?" >> Yeah. >> Oo, it's Jimmy Carr. But are you getting the are you getting the do you really want it? That fundamental question, what do you want? What do you want >> is so difficult to answer in life >> and you know it's it's >> because everybody's got a different answer too.

2:48:43>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But those the big things in life like the you know having kids, having a family, having like people we're the first generation that have had to ask ourselves some of these questions, right? Why why is life hard now for for young people, for all of us, right? We're the first people ever that had to ask, "Shall I get married?

2:48:59Shall I have kids? What shall I do for a living? What what's my like we're asking ourselves these questions in a way that no one had to answer those questions 100 years ago?" We we have to ask ourselves, do I believe in God? Do I believe in God? What do I think about God? You used to be born into a community and they were a Christian community and everyone got married and everyone had kids and you worked in the place where your dad worked.

2:49:21you didn't have to think about any of that stuff. Now we have to think about all of that stuff. We're like self-auored creatures. That's an incredible amount of responsibility. So the idea that what we've done is we've privatized mental health problems. We've said to people, "Oh, your mental health problem is a personal failing.

2:49:38You [ __ ] up." No, we've organized our society in a way that's led to an incredible amount of depression and anxiety. And we have to be much kinder uh to people. We have to give them two things. Agency and empathy. But together, the kindest thing you can say to someone is I believe you can handle this.

2:49:59Like to but also to have empathy that they're going through something here. Here. It's a great way to wrap this up. Jimmy Carr. You're the [ __ ] man. >> Thanks so much. Thanks for everything, man. >> I appreciate you very much, sir. It's always good to talk to you. >> Yeah. Great. >> It was a lot of fun last night, too.

2:50:15>> Oh, I mean, >> great. Good times. What a great episode of Kill Tony, too. All right, that's it. Goodbye, everybody. Thanks.

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