In short · Summary by AI
Joe Rogan talks with sitcom writer and producer Chuck Lorre about his memoir, covering his youth in 1960s rock culture, his years in Scientology, his rise through Roseanne, Two and a Half Men, and The Big Bang Theory, and the decline of multi-cam sitcoms. Lorre concludes that success does not fill inner emptiness, that spirituality and humility matter, and that collaboration and taking creative risks are what make comedy work.
- Lorre recalls seeing Jimi Hendrix and Janis Joplin's Big Brother and the Holding Company at the Singer Bowl in 1969 and bribing a security guard to get close to the stage.
- Lorre says multi-cam sitcoms have declined sharply, from around 40 to 50 a week in the past to maybe three now, and argues the decline is a mistake of broadcasting rather than a lack of audience interest.
- Lorre explains that the Big Bang Theory's laugh track is real, since the show is taped in front of a live audience, and says the show's appeal comes from its characters and the sense of a surrogate family.
- Lorre describes his time in Scientology, starting with a communications course in Columbus, Ohio, which he says gave him an out-of-body experience, and says he left about ten years later after realizing it was not working.
- Lorre says Brett Butler struggled after Grace Under Fire became a hit, and both say sudden fame can be devastating for someone already struggling emotionally.
- Lorre credits Bob Newhart's three demands for his Big Bang Theory appearance, including performing before an audience and winning an Emmy, which he did.
- Lorre says he got sober roughly 27 and a half years ago and came to believe that outside success cannot heal inner emptiness, which requires a personal spiritual path.
- Lorre concludes that collaboration and humility matter, saying saying "I don't know" is a relief and that it is better to aim for great and risk failing than settle for okay.
- 0:011969 Rock Concert Memories
- 2:49Decline of Multi-Cam Sitcoms
- 6:44Sitcoms, Stars, and Netflix
- 11:29Writing Under Pressure
- 20:18Roseanne and Audience Reactions
- 24:54Brett Butler and Fame
- 33:52Charlie Sheen and Two and a Half Men
- 41:30Cop Shows and Drama
- 44:35Launching a Single-Mom Sitcom
- 57:20Rock Stars and Self-Destruction
- 1:01:54Spirituality and Sobriety
- 1:10:32Joining Scientology
- 1:27:15Searching for Meaning and Religion
- 1:42:35Humility and Collaboration
- 1:53:47Creative Stress and Legacy
1969 Rock Concert Memories
0:01Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. >> The Joe Rogan experience. >> TRAIN BY DAY, JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY NIGHT. ALL DAY. >> SO, explain that again. Explain the [music] show that you saw. >> It was at the Singer Bowl in 1969. Jimi Hendrix was the headliner, the Experience right after Monterey. And um Janis Joplin and the Holding Company, Big Brother and the Holding Company, was the warm-up act.
0:31>> [sighs] >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> What was that like? >> Well, for starters, we bribed a a little security guard to get in. Me and my friends. I think we gave them $2 apiece. And we walked right up to the stage. >> Wow. >> Yeah. And watched like right there. And then it was my first I first went oh, I I guess I got to start drinking Southern Comfort.
0:56>> [laughter] >> Cuz she's making it look pretty good. >> When I worked with Phil Hartman on Newsradio, one of his favorite stories was he was like a stagehand at the Whisky and Hendrix performed. And it was his job to stand with his hand on the speaker because he was worried that Hendrix would knock the speaker into the crowd.
1:18And so I I guess it was just not very stable. So, he said he was literally standing there with his hands on the speaker with Hendrix 2 ft away from him playing guitar. >> Early on, he he would destroy his equipment. Like the Who would do as well. They'd tear up the amps. He set the guitar on fire. >> [laughter] >> You know, and you know, and you know, I'm I'm 15, 16 years old going oh man, don't don't set the oh, give me the guitar.
1:43Don't set it on fire. [laughter] >> smash the guitar. There were no smashing guitars back then. >> Yeah. Yeah, it was a it was an expensive way to to end the show, but that's what was happening. >> It just was a I guess [clears throat] it was just a wild rock and roll thing. >> It was amazing. >> thing.
2:00>> an amazing time to be a kid watching that stuff. >> Well, it's such a crazy time in human history. I mean, it was one of the It's one of the weirdest times in all of culture. If you take the difference in the culture of the 1950s to the culture of the late 1960s, it's like a just an insane shift. >> Yeah.
2:18>> Like one of the most insane shifts ever. It was so radical and so big. It happened so fast. >> I think it was a response to the '50s. >> Yeah. It was that and the Vietnam War and drugs. All the above. All of them. Psychedelic drugs. Everything all together. >> And the birth control pill. >> Yes. >> That changed everything.
2:35>> Yes. Yes. Very good point. Very good point. Yeah. Gave women freedom. >> It [laughter] It's as well It did the same for men. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Everybody could just do whatever the [ __ ] they wanted. And And they're doing drugs at the same time. It's everything just boom. Just all came together. >> Yep.
Decline of Multi-Cam Sitcoms
2:54>> Your story is awesome. The book is great. It really is. It's very compelling. You know, uh one of the things that bumps me out the most about the the internet and streaming is that we've lost the multi-cam sitcoms. >> Mhm. >> It's a very weird thing. Like first The first thing that killed it I think was reality shows, right?
3:13That that sort of took a lot of the wind out of its sails. But a few remained. And um during COVID, me and my family watched Big Bang Theory. I'd never watched it. Watched it from episode 1. We we just binged it all the way to the end. I [ __ ] loved it. I felt like when I was like a comic in the clubs in the in LA, you never heard about Big Bang Theory.
3:40It didn't get It was like there was other shows that people wanted to You were You were cool if you liked and The Big Bang Theory was like, you know, family sitcom, you know, just like real clean and sweet. It's a really well-written show. It's very funny. It's a really good show, man. >> Thank you. We worked hard.
3:58>> I bet you did. >> We worked really hard. It was It was uh a general attitude that every episode had to kick ass. Every one. >> Well, it was also so unusual. You have this like super autistic genius guy as your head head character. >> [clears throat] >> Well, the way I entered the show cuz I'm clearly not a physicist or a by any means a genius.
4:21They were outliers. They were guys that couldn't figure out how to behave in the real world. >> Right. >> That I got. >> Yeah. >> You know, the physicist, quantum physicists, and and all that stuff, that was you know, I'm college dropout. I It was never my thing, but being on the outside looking in, that I understood.
4:42>> Right. >> That I understood. Yeah. >> Your story's awesome, dude. It really is. It's It's It's very It's such an American story. You know, because it's you trying to figure out how to make it in show business and try to be a musician and all these different things that happened to you and the whole Scientology thing.
4:58And then eventually, you know, starting to write on big sitcoms and the Roseanne story and it's [ __ ] great, man. Cuz it's like it's such a huge part of television history what you've experienced. You really have. It's like if you think about television history in America, a big part of it is defined by its sitcoms.
5:22You know, because sitcoms like whether it's All in the Family or Seinfeld or Friends, there's something about those sitcoms that like cement us in this place of comfort and happiness and like laughter. Like there's a those are our almost like our extra family. These people on TV that we're become attached to watching every Thursday.
5:43>> For me, it was characters. Nobody remembers the plot of a sitcom. >> Right. >> They were great plots, especially on Seinfeld and stuff. Larry David, nobody can plot a comedy story better than Mr. David. But the the secret sauce was you wanted to hang out with the you wanted to hang out with these people.
6:04You wanted to sit at the bar with Norman Cliff and Woody and Sam. >> You wanted to have a cup of coffee with Jerry, you know, and the and the and and the same thing uh held true with uh Friends was a sort of a surrogate family that you wanted to be part of. But you don't remember the stories. The stories were secondary.
6:21It was the characters and perfect casting on these shows as well. >> Yeah. >> Perfect casting. >> Why do you think that [clears throat] I mean mean in '94 when I first came to LA, sitcoms were the thing. That's why everybody came to LA in the first place. If you were a comic, you came to LA hoping you're going to get a deal so that you could be the next Roseanne >> Mhm.
Sitcoms, Stars, and Netflix
6:44>> or Jerry Seinfeld or fill in the blank. >> Tom uh Tim uh Tim Allen. >> Brett Butler. There was all those people were like >> You go back to Cosby, stand-up. >> Yeah. Uh it was all you wanted the network to develop [clears throat] a show around you. And all these people were scrambling for that. And that for the most part doesn't exist anymore.
7:04>> Well, we're trying with Leanne Morgan. You know, we we know Leanne's you know, remarkably successful stand-up right now. And the show we're doing with her on Netflix is doing pretty well. >> you can do it. >> Yeah, they have the freedom to >> Young Sheldon worked on Netflix. That was great. >> Is amazing thing about a Young Sheldon on Netflix was a whole generation of kids watched that show and had never seen The Big Bang Theory.
7:29They didn't And what's wonderful, too, is when you get to talk to them, they don't know what [clears throat] CBS is. >> [laughter] >> How weird. >> It's it's but the the show stood on its own which was that was our dream come true that it wasn't standing on the shoulders of The Big Bang Theory. It was its own show.
7:49>> Right. No, definitely was. We binged that too after we binged Big Bang Theory. We binged Young Sheldon which is a great show too. But different, right? Single camera. >> Totally different vibe. Yeah. >> The the thing about the multi-cam thing is like you're kind of in on it. You know there's a crowd there watching this.
8:06It's like you're watching a It's like you're watching a play as much as you're watching a comedy. >> It is a play. >> Yeah. >> It is a play with four cameras rolling around in front of it. Right. And if somebody makes a mistake, you do it again. >> Yeah. >> Or something stinks, you rewrite it or you cut it.
8:21But you don't put it on TV where, you know, as I've always said if it stinks in front of the audience, if you put it on TV, it's going to stink forever. >> Right. >> Right? Um so it is it is a little bit of theater. I think it started back in the '50s as theater. That's what they, you know, and started as radio plays.
8:38>> Right. >> You know, and then television happened. >> What was the first sitcom on television? It wasn't The Honeymooners, was it? Oh, it had to be something probably before that. Well, there was always, you know, um Lucy, but I think even before that there was Phil Silvers and >> Mhm. >> and George Burns and >> Right.
8:59>> I don't know I don't know the deep history of it, but it all came out of vaudeville and and theater. Yeah. One of the more interesting things about the this this this taste for the laugh track we've never used a laugh track. Never. Been for 40 years been accused of it but never used it. And uh I remember one time I had a reporter on the set of The Big Bang Theory who went and sat in the audience and watched us tape a show in front of a live studio audience.
9:36Takes three, three and a half hours. And then he writes an article complaining about the laugh track. You know, it's sort of like, okay. There's no getting away from this. He sat in the stands with 200 people laughing. And he wrote about the annoying laugh track. >> That's interesting. Do you think they just do that cuz controversy sells and negativity sells [clears throat] and they just have a narrative in their head?
10:01>> It diminishes the show. >> They want to diminish it. >> to diminish it. >> Yeah. >> I I think I made that pretty clear in the book. >> Yeah. >> That that the word sitcom it made sense when you married a [ __ ] witch. You know, or you came back from outer space with a genie. >> Right. >> don't want to get laid.
10:19You know. But it makes no sense when it's a family show like Archie, you know, All in the Family. That's That's about a family. What's the situation? He's a bigot. He's you know, he's he's he's racially insensitive. That's not a situation. That's life. You know. >> Well, the whole sitcom thing I just don't feel like you you talked about this in your in the book as well.
10:45Like you wouldn't even say that you wrote for sitcoms. >> I'd say I wrote a TV comedy. Yeah, cuz I was embarrassed. >> Isn't that interesting? Like sitcoms were dismissed. >> I was very insecure and and I the word hurt me. It physically hurt me. >> That's crazy. >> Yeah, it's cuz it >> It It really wouldn't just didn't get the respect that a film did.
11:08>> No, of course not. >> Not even close. >> Not even close. So much harder though in so many ways to make 200 people laugh every week for 22 weeks. >> It's a It's almost impossible. It's very difficult to pull off. >> And if you watch the writer scramble and you know, every week you have to have some new scenario and you've got five cast members you have to juggle around with the scenes and >> And network executives and TV company executives and the managers of the of the actors, and the actors, and and
Writing Under Pressure
11:35everybody's, you know, feeling like we live or die depending on whether the audience laughs or not. There's no grace period. >> And if you're a writer, you also have to listen to the executives. And their ideas >> Early on. >> horrible Early on. Early on. Before the show gets successful. >> Once you become successful, you know, I started to, you know, my testicles dropped at a certain point.
11:56>> [laughter] >> And I stopped saying saying yes, sir, no, sir. I I just, you know, I said, "No, this is the way it's going to go." But that was predicated on having had success. That was all. >> This uh the sitcom on Netflix that you were talking about, is this going to be multi-cam or single-cam? >> It is multi-cam.
12:11Oh, that's awesome. >> finished our second season. >> I didn't know. >> Yeah. >> The only one that I know that's doing it right now is Ms. Pat. She's got a very funny show. But it's uh it used to be there were so many of them, and it's such a good genre. >> There were 40 or 50 a week. >> That's crazy.
12:29>> Now there's maybe three. I'm seriously, maybe three. And in front of an audience, maybe two. >> Do you feel First of all, boy, did you get out the right time, you know, like with network stuff? Like all your gigantic hits. You know, they were all like perfect at the right time when everybody was watching sitcoms.
12:46>> I Timing-wise, I've been blessed. There's no question about it. >> timing of all time. >> Yeah. >> You know, and I mean, I just don't understand why they can't come back. It's such a good art form. It's so fun to watch. >> When it's done really, really well. >> Yeah. >> It's extraordinary. And and I've I've I've I've seen the uh the eulogy for it many times over the last 40 some odd years, and uh I I'm I'm hard to buy into the eulogy, cuz cuz one great show changes everything.
13:16>> Yeah, it's still fun to watch. That's what doesn't make sense. And this is what I got when we were watching Big Bang Theory. Like it's fun to watch sitcoms. It's a very different experience than watching anything else. You're aware that it's a half an hour, you know, you know all the characters, you know all this guy is going to say something stupid, and this guy is going to do it's like it's a very interesting art form that is very is very people enjoy it.
13:38It's very comforting for people, and it doesn't make sense. Like it just shows you like the mismanagement of television that sitcoms were allowed to go away. It doesn't make sense to me. >> [sighs] >> I don't I don't understand it either. Taste change, the culture changes. I don't know. I don't know.
13:57>> what it is though? I don't think that's what it is. [clears throat] I don't think they've changed that much. >> I I think there's a Comedy has certainly changed, I believe. I think laughing out loud is frowned upon. >> Really? >> I think there's a vulnerability to laughing when you let yourself laugh.
14:16And I mean look at what look at what gets feted as a comedy these days. And they're great stuff, you know? I mean, they're really wonderful stuff, but you're not laughing out loud. You know, when I when I you know, when I watch something like White Lotus and I talk to people about it, they love it. And it's extremely well done.
14:36Mike White's brilliant. You don't laugh watching it. It It's enjoyable, you know? It's extraordinarily well written and well produced, and casting is great, but it doesn't it doesn't cause out loud laughter. >> You think people don't want to laugh? Really? >> I think [clears throat] when you laugh out loud, first of all, laughter is not something self-generated.
14:59It happens to you. >> Right. >> Right? It's surprise it should it should come as a surprise when you laugh. >> Sure. >> Right? It's It's not oh, I'm going to laugh now. Laughter happens because you've been somewhat you've been surprised by what you're watching or listening to. >> Yeah. >> And and there's a certain of all you have to be you have to be vulnerable enough to let yourself react.
15:18You've seen people watch comedy like this with their arms folded. They're rejecting you before you've opened your [ __ ] mouth. You know where that happens the most is Los Angeles. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, maybe you need to move. >> [laughter] >> Because like you're saying all these things that I respect you deeply and I'm hearing what you're saying.
15:37I don't agree at all. I think people love laughing. I think they enjoy the [ __ ] out of it. It's one of their favorite things to do. >> Maybe I am experiencing maybe I am a victim of Los Angeles. >> Los Angeles is an insanely self-important place. >> Yeah. >> Where people are constantly judging each other's social status.
15:53>> Mhm. >> And um they would love to be able to dismiss you. And they love to look forward to the opportunity to dismiss you. Not everybody. Not everybody. A lot of cool people there. >> Yeah, yeah. >> But there's a there's a percentage of people that come there with a hole in their soul that they're trying to fill that will never get filled.
16:08And so they always have this weird way of interacting with people. It's this constant dick measuring contest. And it's exhausting. >> So where would I go? >> I don't know. Somewhere [laughter] else. Somewhere else. I mean even New York is way better in that regard cuz it's not tainted by show business.
16:23You know, New York is insanely congested and there's too many people. It's just nuts. But other than that, you like it's a it's a great metropolitan city filled with everything. All the greatest restaurants and there's comedy clubs and all these It's not tainted. There's a thing about Los Angeles where the the spirit of the city itself is tainted by people that want attention.
16:47And it always will be. It's it's impossible to avoid. They they go there because that's where the auditions are and that's where the play And some of them are fantastic people. Don't get me wrong. But there's a larger percentage that aren't fantastic and they are a mess and they're exhausting. And those are the people that cross their arms and that's why you think people don't want to laugh because they do everywhere else.
17:09>> Well, clearly the shows the shows that I've been spent my whole life working on do really well all over the world. But, you know, maybe, you know, I'm I'm but I'm in a bubble. >> You're in a bubble. >> in a bubble. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That that bubble is a little bit of a problem. >> It's crazy. I mean >> Yeah.
17:28>> sometimes you you see The Big Bang Theory, huge hit in Germany. >> [laughter] >> In Germany, you know, you know, I I I I I astonishing how it um Mexico, Brazil. >> Wow. >> You there's the Beatles down there. It's remarkable. You know, maybe not so much in Brentwood. >> [laughter] >> Right, it's like that's the thing about it.
17:54It's dismissed and it was dismissed in Hollywood. I remember I was working on a sitcom and I was dating this girl who was an actress and she literally she was unemployed. She literally told me, "I wouldn't do a sitcom. I want to do film." I was like, "Okay. All right, I don't know what to tell you." Like >> The secret, [laughter] too, that people don't know unless they've been there, it's really hard.
18:16>> It is hard, but it's >> It's really hard to put on a play every week. >> Yeah. >> It's really hard and uh it's it's it's it's anxiety-ridden, it's it's nervousness, it's it's stressful, it doesn't always go well. >> Right. >> When a joke fails at the Burbank at the Burbank Warner Brothers lot and it and the audience doesn't respond, you can hear the 134 Freeway.
18:40>> Right. >> it's crickets. >> Yeah, it's not good. >> And and but it's it's an extraordinary teaching device because you you learn you learn some humility. Oh, I'm not as smart as I thought I was. That thing that joke died. I thought it was great. >> Yeah. >> Oh, we got to fix it, you know, and that that's that's how that's how I spent the last many decades you know, rushing around trying to fix it.
19:07>> This episode is brought to you by The Terminal List season 2. Chris Pratt is back as Navy SEAL Commander James Reece and this time he's fighting for redemption. 9 months after finishing his list, Reece is hiding in Mozambique with a terminal brain tumor when the CIA pulls him back for one final mission.
19:29Hunt the terrorist behind a wave of attacks devastating the West. But what starts as a manhunt turns into a globe-spanning fight for survival. With practical effects and real-world military experience behind every scene, the action this season is the real deal. Watch The Terminal List season 2 on October 21st only on Prime.
19:52It's also often a wild thunderstorm of creative people getting together >> Mhm. >> working on something, trying to figure it out. Everyone throwing ideas at things. It's really exciting in that regard. Like every week you're creating this thing and you're putting it on its feet throughout the week. >> Right.
20:09>> You got a table [clears throat] read, you sit down, everybody fake laughs. You have to figure out what's real. >> What's real? >> You put it together. >> When I was on Roseanne, it was the huge. Mhm. Every week maybe 40 million people were watching. In real time. No no DVRs yet. No basically just the start of the VCR stuff.
Roseanne and Audience Reactions
20:29And you know, a great writing staff. I was really blessed to be part of that staff, but we learned very [snorts] quickly John Goodman would walk into the kitchen and say, "Rosie, I'm home." The audience would go berserk. And we'd be going "Yeah, that I wrote that line." >> [laughter] >> They were just glad to see him.
20:49>> Right. Right. Right. >> They were so excited to see him that the response was not genuine to It wasn't a com- It There was no comedy in "Honey, I'm home." >> Right. >> But they were so thrilled to be in the same space as John Goodman who they loved >> Right. >> as Dan Conners. And uh you know, you you have to start learning that those are those are not the laughs that you hang your hat on.
21:11Those are the laughs because the show's become part of people's lives. You know, it's become visceral. You know, they >> Right. >> People respond to the Big Bang characters. I tell this story in the book um at Comic-Con um early on. Thousands of people were camping out at night to come in and see the panel at Comic-Con for The Big Bang Theory.
21:34And I was sitting next to Jim Parsons at a autograph line, you know, where people come up with a cast picture and they sign it. And this girl comes up to Jim and her hands are shaking, and she hands him the picture to sign, and she's crying out of joy to see Jim Parsons, to be this far away from Jim Parsons, Sheldon.
21:58>> Wow. >> And I remember thinking, I've been doing this a while. People are always happy to see Jon Cryer and Charlie. Nobody ever cried. >> [laughter] >> Nobody ever cried when they saw Roseanne, you know, or anybody like that. They But they were She was crying out of sheer joy to see these guys. And that's that's when I went, something's happening here that we didn't plan, that we couldn't have planned, that these characters have hit a nerve.
22:28You know. >> Well, I think it is the misfits thing, you know. I think that's a giant part of it. >> a surrogate family. >> Yeah. >> They support one another. >> Yes. >> They're They're losers in a life raft. >> Right. >> what I mean? >> Right. >> hold each other up. >> And all odd in their own unique way that's endearing.
22:46And I think for a lot of people, you know, you look at Friends, you're like, those [ __ ] people never hang out with me. What's the point, you know? They're all good-looking and hanging out together. They're too cool. Everybody's cool. [ __ ] I don't fit there. But they'd watch Young Sheldon and they'd watch that show and they'd think, "All right, well, these people are just weirdos just like me."
23:06>> One of the things I loved about Young Sheldon we discovered as we were doing it was the show really became about his family. >> Right. >> Here Here's this cuckoo >> Right. >> cuckoo's nest, you know, this this this odd child >> parents. >> with normal parents. Dad's a football coach. His mom's deeply religious.
23:23He's got a twin sister who's just a twin just a kid. And her older brother's kind of a knucklehead, you know, means well, but, you know, >> [snorts] >> it's how they have to accommodate this remarkable human being. Uh it really became watching them I mean, how much love and and protectiveness went towards this little boy >> Yeah.
23:50>> who was oblivious >> Right. >> at how caustic he was. He was really an [ __ ] You know what I mean? And so was the grown Sheldon. He was really a dick. He treated his friends horribly. And uh and it was one of the magic tricks of Young Sheldon was an 8-year-old being a dick is not is not acceptable.
24:09Right? You know, 25 30-year-old Jim Parsons, you can be you can be caustic, but when when it's coming out of a child's mouth, not so not so pleasant. So, it really shifted to becoming how his parents and his brother and sister and eventually and his and his grandmother took care of him. They They just They excused him for being the way he was and allowed him to be that way.
24:36That's a love story. >> It is is and it's completely unique to the original show. The Big Bang Theory, you know, obviously Sheldon's older, but it's just a different thing. This the whole story is a different thing. The concentration is a different thing. It's really about the family and this extraordinary kid.
Brett Butler and Fame
24:53>> Yeah. >> But it's great. >> Thank you. >> When you talk about the Rosanne days, [clears throat] those are some of my favorite days cuz you know I'm I'm friends with Roseanne and I know how crazy she is. And you know and she talks about [laughter] Well, I bet you know better than I do. But but she talks about how crazy she was during those days.
25:11>> That's nice to hear. >> Yeah. >> It's nice to hear. >> She's like I was a tyrant. >> [laughter] >> Yeah, that's a good That that that's the nicest word I can think of. >> Well, you know her whole story how she got hit by a car when she was young. Yeah, that's what a lot of people don't know. And I thought it was really important to have her on after she got in trouble and got fired from her new show to have her on and explain like her history.
25:36She had legitimate mental illness like not like I need attention mental illness. Hit by a car when she was 15 years old was in the hospital for a long time was in a mental health institute [snorts] for 9 months after that. She was a grade A math student after the accident she could not count. Like she had a legitimate brain injury that changed her personality completely.
26:03And it's responsible for a lot of her erratic behavior and a lot of the chaos that you see also maybe some of the brilliance in her comedic timing. She was just so so didn't give a [ __ ] She was so different than any woman comic before her. >> Absolutely. No, she was groundbreaking. That that initial act that she and her sister I don't know if she talked about her sister much but they wrote that act and it was it was like nothing that we'd ever seen before.
26:31It was entirely original. >> Yeah, entirely original and >> Now I know why children why why why parents eat their young Why why animals eat their young was the keystone of that act. Now I know why animals eat their young. >> Yeah, she was she was a force. But just hearing the stories like the how the Tom Arnold they made you put his name as a writer on the scripts.
26:57You'd have to change the scripts and write his name in. >> Easy for you to laugh. >> [laughter] >> That kind of [ __ ] the reason why I laughed is cuz I'd heard stories not about Tom Arnold, but about people doing that. Like that was a real thing. Like it was almost like a union job that you got with the mob where you didn't really have to show up.
27:18>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. The no-show gigs. >> Yeah, it was almost like that. Like people got writers credits when they weren't writing at all. >> And it was a lot of money. >> A lot of money. >> of money. >> A lot of money. Yeah, I know many stories. >> I remember complaining to a then agent who I I might have included this in the book, I don't remember.
27:39He said, "Chuck, you got to let them [ __ ] you a few times so they know they love you." >> [laughter] >> Yeah, that's in the book. >> Yeah, it's it's a weird business, man. It's a weird business. And all your stories about just dealing with crazy actors and the Cybill Shepherd thing where she made you change the joke and then it didn't it didn't work and then she got mad at you for that.
28:02>> It worked [laughter] for Baranski. Baranski could read the phone book. I mean, she that was a that was one of the great gifts I've ever been close to watching her work. >> whole weirdness where people get upset if someone else got a joke. Even if it was like that person's character to say that line and not your character.
28:18People get it was all about who gets the lines, who gets the good lines. >> Given how successful those shows were and how much money was being generated by them, it's hard to defend how how much cruelty, you know, and malice went into the making of it. It was so unnecessary. It should have been a constant celebration.
28:40It should have been an ongoing party. Look what we did. You know. >> More often than not though in those situations, for whatever reason, when someone is the head the big star of those shows, you hear nightmare stories. When someone is like the the lead actor, the show is written about them, it's all about them, it's like there's there's some something about the intoxicating power of being the top person on the show.
29:05You're you're your picture is 6 ft high on a [ __ ] billboard outside the place, your name's painted on the wall. They can't help themselves. So, they just get crazy. >> It makes me think of It was my great good fortune to get to know Bob Newhart. >> Ah. >> And to and to call him a friend, and he did a bunch of Big Bang episodes.
29:27And um he taught me something I I I've never forgotten. He goes, "I'm not the funny guy on the show. I react to the funny guys. You know, Larry, Darryl, and Darryl, and Tom Poston, those the crazy characters would come in in the show." And he was a psychiatrist, even in that one. Crazy people would come in, and the comedy was in Bob reacting.
29:52A raised eyebrow would get an enormous laugh because he he becomes the audience reacting to the crazy people. And uh he I was begging him for years to come and do any show I'd worked on. Cuz I I'm such a fan. And uh I remember he finally he watched The Big Bang Theory, and he said, "All right, I'll do I'll do this one.
30:17But I have three demands." Go. He goes, "It has to be in front of an audience. I don't do anything I I said, "That's all we do. We only work in front of an audience." Done. Number two, I wanted I want my character to have an arc. I want it to be over a few episodes." Done. Number three, "I want to win an Emmy."
30:39>> [laughter] >> He'd never won an Emmy for show. >> That's crazy. >> Isn't that nuts? >> That's crazy. >> And he did on The Big Bang Theory. He won an Emmy for best supporting actor. Again, best guest actor in a in a in a comedy. And it was one of the genuine joys of my life was I got him the Emmy. >> That's amazing.
30:58>> I he got it he got the Emmy but we we delivered on all three. >> That's amazing. I can't believe he never won an Emmy. >> Isn't that crazy? >> That's crazy. That's literally crazy. I went to the Emmys once and it was after Phil Hartman had been murdered. And he was nominated for an Emmy. So we all went.
31:13And he didn't win and when he didn't win Dave Foley looked over at me and goes, "What the [ __ ] does a guy have to do to win?" >> [laughter] >> Oh, that's cold. >> moment >> That's beautiful. >> we were so we were all so so broken. We were so sad. It was so not not that he didn't win the Emmy. Just that he had [clears throat] just recently been murdered.
31:35It was just it was still was so hard to believe and so painful. That Dave just came in with the banger. Dave Foley was like one of the secret producers of NewsRadio. The NewsRadio the the Paul Simms is so brilliant that when he created the show he allowed all these creative people to come up with alternative lines and Dave was from Kids in the Hall so he was just a fantastic writer on top of being very funny.
32:01And so he would come up with better lines all the time and Paul would always always use them. It was just there was no ego there. It was such a great place to be. And so when when Phil got killed it was like we were just broken. We were just like, "What?" And so for Dave to say that at the Emmys was like I'm like, "Okay, no one's topping this.
32:23I'm never coming back to the Emmys again. Let's get out of here." >> No, that's the high note. >> Yeah. [snorts] >> You could come up with that. >> believe Bob Newhart never won an Emmy. That's insane. >> He did on The Big Bang Theory. >> but I mean before [laughter] that for The Bob Newhart That's bananas.
32:39That's bananas. It was such a good show. It's uh he seemed like a lovely guy. I I wish I got to truly was meet him. >> He truly was. Back when I when I was getting started I when that when that set was I I worked on the on the same lot as the as the show the Bread and Breakfast Bread the second show.
33:00And um when they were down when the stage was dark I'd go sit in that little lobby set in the dark just kind of drink it in. You know, it's a tiny little set where he'd stand behind the counter and Larry, Darryl, and Darryl would come in I just sit there in the dark and just take it in, you know, [ __ ] this is where they make this show.
33:22>> Wow. >> And later on we would bunch of us on Two and a Half Men would sneak into the West Wing set and sit in the Oval Office. This is as close as we're going to get to the Oval Office. You [laughter] know, we were sitting there you know, late at night. >> That's awesome. Just bringing up Two and a Half [clears throat] Men like you have gone through some of the [ __ ] craziest actors.
33:46Like you've worked with some of the craziest people of all time. Charlie when he was here he did a podcast and he was like telling me about those days. When you hear about those days like how did you function? Like how were you showing up and doing a sitcom when you were living like that? Like it's kind of amazing that he kept it together the way he did.
Charlie Sheen and Two and a Half Men
34:09>> Mhm. >> Like that's one thing that he really deserves credit for. The guy did good work while he was out of his [ __ ] mind. >> We did six, seven years in the clear before it all went to hell. >> Uh-huh. >> We had like 150 some odd 60 episodes before it started to go down. >> And did was he [clears throat] heavy using during those times?
34:28to >> knowledge. >> Oh, so he >> was he was managing it and keeping it to himself, but as far as I was concerned, we had a great partnership. We were having a lot of fun. The show was insanely, you know, successful. Um It was You know, we we had uh we had something in common, you know, we were all on the same kind of I thought we were all on the same road, you know, keeping it clean.
34:57>> Right. >> Staying sober and stuff and uh the show was killing it. It was just It It actually the success of that show is what granted me the freedom to go, you know, and go and do a couple of tries to get The Big Bang Theory right. I mean, we failed at first, you know, we made a lot of mistakes, but Two and a Half Men was so successful, CBS granted me unbelievable leeway to to to make make decisions, do [ __ ] over again, like the pilot.
35:30Nobody gets a do-over. We got a do-over on the Big Bang pilot. >> Wow. >> happens. We got one, and it and it worked out. You know. >> Boy, did it work out. >> it work out, yeah. >> So, I didn't know that Charlie was supposedly sober for most of that time. >> As far as I know, he was. >> And But you you're talk You talk to him now, right?
35:50You guys are friends now? >> Yeah. Yeah, he He has a blurb on the back of the book. >> So, he says he was sober for the for the beginning and then at one and then eventually he just >> I don't know at what point he went off the rails. >> Did you notice like a change? >> Well, in the eighth season, it was clearly we were in trouble.
36:04It was It was you know, when his manager calls me and says, "Charlie can't come to run-through today rehearsal, his Bic lighter blew up and he has no eyebrows." >> [laughter] >> Now, I'm somewhat naive to some of this stuff, but I know Bic lighters, they don't blow up. >> Wow. Maybe they do when you're cooking coke with them.
36:29>> Maybe that's what happened. But there was a lot of the behavior became more and more erratic. A lot of more a lot of missed stuff. Um and um you know, and the sad truth about about my part of it was I I was determined to stay in denial. I just didn't want to know. I wanted to believe it was all okay.
36:51I was absolutely you know, forcefully you know, oblivious. I just wanted to believe it was all going to be okay. >> Just because the show was doing so well? >> It was doing so well and it was fun. I mean, we kick ass we worked really hard. My partner on that show, Les Charleson and I we were ruthless.
37:14We every second had to kick ass. We were absolutely determined to make it the best possible show we could. Uh every week. No bad shows. You know, I liken a bad show on television to going to a restaurant and having a cockroach come across your table. You don't go back to that restaurant ever again. Ever again.
37:38And that's how I felt about situation comedies. You make a bad show, you people are going to maybe never come back. >> You're going to lose a bunch for sure. >> bunch. You know, I just my own experience I loved Cheers. I was devoted to Cheers. It was a couple of years there where you know, you had to get through Cliff going home to his mother.
38:01I wanted to be in the bar with, you know, Woody and Sam and and I you would tolerate, you know, some of the dips, but then they'd come roaring back with great writing and, you know, stuff. But more often than not, if a show fails on a few few occasions, even a show you love >> Yeah. >> there's a likelihood you may move on.
38:20>> And it's usually something happens behind the scenes, like a head writer leaves or someone new gets hired and they have new ideas about stuff and >> Yeah. >> That's generally how it goes, right? >> [sighs] >> There's a weird delicate chemistry to one of these things when they work. >> Yes. >> You know, um And and it you know, it's really obvious when you think you can spin something off.
38:47Do you remember Archie's Place? >> No, I don't. >> And they tried to spin off Archie Bunker. >> the the name now that you brought it up, but I don't remember it at all. >> ran a bar. >> Wow. >> And it was a new show with Archie Bunker, but without Meathead >> Yeah. >> and you know, and Edith and >> I remember he went on to do a cop show and I was very upset.
39:06I was like, how is he playing a cop on TV? That's >> chemistry of All in the Family was gone. >> Yeah. >> It was gone. The same thing happened, you know, with Joey off of Friends. >> Mhm. >> The miraculous chemistry of that cast >> Right. >> can't just >> Right. >> I think I learned a lesson watching those things going, don't don't think this thing travels.
39:32>> Right. >> You know, >> Right. >> It's The characters and their relationships with the other characters are the heart and soul of this thing. It's you know, you can't just pluck something out and go, here, be successful over here. >> that's why Young Sheldon is so impressive cuz you didn't it's it is kind of a spin-off, but it's not and everyone's new.
39:51>> The only inkling of The Big Bang Theory is Jim Parsons' narration. >> Right. >> You never see him. >> Right. >> He's off ca- him telling the story of him being a child in East Texas. That was the only link. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It's just amazing that you pulled off that chemistry in two completely different environments about the same character.
40:12>> Yeah, that was a that was a that was a roll of the dice, wasn't it? Yeah. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah, but it worked. >> find Ian then we would not have made the show. >> Yeah, there's things about certain sitcoms, like Seinfeld's a great example, where those people just work together so well. You couldn't imagine a new person being put in the mix or someone going away.
40:31Like, what? You would ruin the whole thing. >> Absolutely. And and again, the characters and their relationships with each other are why you watch. >> Yeah. >> You know? You know. I can't tell you one plot, >> [laughter] >> but I never missed an episode. >> Right. >> I you know, I never missed an Thursday night was gold because of Seinfeld.
40:56>> Yeah, I mean, the entire country was watching. Because of Seinfeld and because of Friends on Thursday night on NBC. That was the night. >> Yeah, and then Bochco shows at 10:00. The Bochco shows were impeccable. >> Right. Right. >> I mean, one after the other. You know, Hill Street, L.A. Law. >> Yep.
41:14>> You know, um um NYPD Blue. >> Mhm. >> It was an incredible run of sophisticated cop shows. >> It really was. It's like it's amazing how many cop shows there have been. It's like, boy, do we like watching cop shows? >> And again, they were character shows. I mean, Bochco understood that as well. That, you know, the it wasn't the crime of the week.
Cop Shows and Drama
41:39>> Right. >> Which is the the you know, solving the crime is more the the Dick Wolf approach to dramas. Bochco was was about the characters, about the cops, about their their their their heartaches and the you know, the the torments of being a cop in Los Angeles. And >> Also, if you're going to write a show about drama, who experiences more drama than cops?
42:01>> Every day. >> It's it's the perfect genre. Cuz you're always going to have chaos. You could write in any kind of chaos. Whereas, if it's one person who's a plumber who's If he's that much chaos in his life, you'd be like, "What the [ __ ] are you doing with your life, man? How are you involved in so many murders?"
42:16>> [laughter] >> How is there so many armed robberies when you're around? >> But if you're a cop, it makes sense to write it in like that. >> Who was the There was I I can't remember the name of the guy who He was a New York City cop who wrote a whole bunch of books that I think were a big factor in in the Bosch co lore.
42:33Um I can't remember his name. He He wrote um Gosh damn it. I can't remember his name. I'll remember it tonight when we're done. But he wrote He wrote about cops as people. >> Mhm. >> people in untenable work. >> Yeah. >> Work was, you know, this incredibly destructive work environment. And um Starts with an M.
43:04>> Yeah. Cop genres, sitcoms. It's uh It's just to me it's the cop genres are still around. Whereas the sitcoms have I mean what have they been reduced by 80%? >> More. >> 90? Yeah. >> Yeah. Again, back back when I got started, there were four sitcoms on every network five nights a week or four nights a week.
43:24So, what is that? That's, you know, 16 a night. >> Mhm. >> And then the hour dramas were at 10:00 every night for years. For years. >> Yeah, I don't believe that's because people don't like them. I really don't. I think it's just a a mistake in broadcasting. I think they [ __ ] up. And I think if they came back with some good ones.
43:47The problem is it's a hard job. >> It's a hard job and the and I was one of the blessings of of my career was I got to have a journeyman uh period where I was on the I was learning, but I wasn't in charge. I wasn't the guy. I didn't have to, you know, say that way. >> Right. >> And I had maybe 7, 8 years before they said, "Here, your show."
44:15And I wasn't ready. I still was overwhelmed. >> Merle Miller? >> No. >> Nope. All right, we give up. >> [laughter] >> Can't figure out who it is. >> Um um but um that first show >> [clears throat] >> I got >> I I I I had the keys to the kingdom. I got a show on TV. >> Right. And now so this is a show after you leave Roseanne, and now you're working on your own show, but they put it on like Saturday night.
Launching a Single-Mom Sitcom
44:47>> The owners of the Roseanne show had an idea for a show that was strangely like Roseanne. Uh you know, it's heavy-set, unhappy housewife with a domineering husband and and problems with her kids. And they went to my then boss uh Bob Meyer and asked him if he wanted to develop that into a series. And Bob quite rightly saw that they were just trying to, you know, rip off Roseanne and do it again.
45:18Have another hit show with an unhappy housewife. And he very wisely or whatever said, "No, I don't think so. I don't like this idea." So they went, "All right." They came to me. And I thought, "This is a rip-off of Roseanne. I'm in." >> [laughter] >> Because what I was thinking is these two people owned The Cosby Show and Roseanne.
45:45They were gigantic 8 million-pound gorillas in television back then. I want to work for them. I somehow I'm not saying no, even though I I see what see it for what it is. And I worked my ass off on it. And we This lovely lady, a British actress named Miriam Margolyes. Margolyes? Margolyes? And she was a terrific actress.
46:08Um and she tried so hard. She tried so hard to to be a an unhappy American Staten Island housewife. And the show, you know, to credit how powerful Marcy Carsey and Tom Werner were, the network couldn't bring themselves to say pass. They couldn't say pass and they ordered six episodes. And they put it on the coveted time slot of 8:00 Saturday nights.
46:40>> For people who don't know, that's the worst time slot you could ever get on network television. >> making the show and using it for landfill. >> Yeah, everybody's out. Everybody goes out. In the old days before the internet, people would just leave the house on Saturday night. >> If you go back far enough, Saturday night had some huge stuff.
46:58>> How far you got to go back? >> Going back into the '60s. >> Really? >> Yeah. >> Saturday night was a big night. >> Yeah. >> Interesting. >> Was that because television was fairly new? It was like a crazy thing to stay home and watch TV? That makes sense. >> But anyway, they ordered [clears throat] six episodes.
47:13They couldn't They They aired five. Couldn't bring themselves to air the sixth one. >> [laughter] >> You know, like a you know, like it wouldn't have hurt. >> [clears throat] >> And I thought, you know, okay, that's the end of my career. I'm done. I had my shot. I blew it. And [clears throat] Tom Werner came in my office a few days after they canceled the show and said, "It's a noble failure.
47:39Let's try again." I had never put noble and failure together in the same sentence. You know. >> Did you think the show was good or did you think it didn't have enough time to get good? >> Here's the problem with writing a TV and producing a TV comedy is uh you don't you don't have perspective. You lose perspective.
48:00You're working so hard. >> Right. >> You don't really have the big picture as to whether you think it's working. You ask anybody on any staff on any sitcom back in the day, "We're doing great work." >> Right. >> I I think it's it's it's it's just impossible to own the fact that it might be mediocre given how hard we're working.
48:20Right? >> Mhm. >> So, I don't know that I really had a clear perspective on whether it was quality television or deserved to go on or not. I just know I worked really hard and I was heartbroken that it it failed. >> That's a very honest perspective. I appreciate that. >> And then he said, "A noble failure, let's try again."
48:39And I was like, "I get another I get a do-over? I get to try again? Great." You know, cuz when you're indoors, they bring you lunch. >> [laughter] >> You know, they feed you. You know, you have a parking spot. It's pretty cool. >> It's pretty cool. >> And that's that led to them saying uh um "We want to do a show about a single mom."
49:03And I was like, "Wait a minute. I wanted the Frannie's turn, the character the thing that just failed. I wanted her to leave her husband and and and try and be you know, single and live with her daughter." And you said, "No, she has to be married because Cosby's married, Roseanne's married." They wanted another marriage show.
49:21But what turned out was ABC was looking for a single mom show. So, now they wanted mom show. And I said, "Where do I come in to what sensibility can I bring to a single mom show?" And to their credit, they sent me to Elgin, Illinois to spend a few days. The Chamber of Commerce took me to a women's shelter, um a YWCA, um hospitals where women were either on welfare working two jobs, you know, killing themselves to support themselves while raising children.
50:03And I got this walk-through. What I I went, "Oh, this is this is Greek tragedy. These women are they're they're they're heroes. I mean, at the time the single mom was Murphy Brown. Murphy Brown had endless nannies. >> Right. >> She just went about her life and there was a kid. But a woman raising children by herself without a safety net, that hadn't been done.
50:33And I came back from that trip going, "Okay, I want to write this. I want to write this cuz this is I get it now. It's it's a hero's journey. It's it's you wouldn't think it. It's a sitcom. It's four cameras in front of a live audience, but for me it was the hero's journey. It was this woman against all odds to caring for her children after a horrible divorce and having to work her ass off to just to feed them.
51:03And uh and then it and then it went a little south when they said, "Okay, and we found the perfect actress to play that part." And that's how I met Brett Butler. >> [laughter] >> Sure, you laugh. >> Well, that's the a similar situation to what we're talking about before where people would just become [clears throat] tyrants when they have their own show.
51:24>> She was very unhappy. >> Yeah. >> Out of the gate. Day one. >> Seems crazy. >> You'd think we should have been celebrating cuz the show was an instant hit. I There was Home Improvement with Tim Allen. And then they put it on right after it and it did great. And she was on the cover of magazines and she was on all the talk shows and she's truly funny woman.
51:45She had a great stand-up act. >> Oh, she was hilarious. >> Yeah. Uh No question and she took to acting immediately. You know, I've watched people try and do this. Not everybody can do it. Brett could do it. Brett could do it. But it didn't go well for me. >> It just seems so insane that someone would get an opportunity that if you're a comic, that's the opportunity.
52:08That's it. You're it's your own sitcom. How could you be upset? It's weird. >> I I think if you're damaged in the certain kind of way that >> Right. >> that actors and comics can be damaged and you succeed and you learn that horrible horrible 2:00 in the morning horrible truth I'm still unhappy. >> Right.
52:38>> I'm still not whole. This was supposed to make me happy and whole. Success was supposed to solve my problems. That's certainly what I was taught >> Right. >> when I was a boy, you know, if you make something of yourself you'll feel you'll be good. People people will like you and admire you and you'll you know, you'll be a man of substance.
52:58Yiddish was a mensch, right? And um and then you learn that horrible truth. Only can happen with success, which is oh [ __ ] I'm still a miserable [ __ ] >> [laughter] >> Now what? Now what? That's not going to solve that that hole inside. >> And generally that's where the drugs come in. >> That's where the drugs come in.
53:23>> With rock stars? >> Rock stars and gambling and you can't [ __ ] your drink your way, drug your way gamble your way out of that. It [ __ ] works temporarily and then it doesn't work. And when it stops working, you're truly [ __ ] >> Yeah. >> You're truly [ __ ] You're trying to find a solution that um the best I understand it nothing on the outside's going to heal the inside.
53:49>> This episode is brought to you by Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 4 is coming and they're going all in on this one. The kind of missions that make you go, "Dude, did they really just do that?" Set during a full-scale North Korean invasion of South Korea, expect a real boots-on-the-ground experience as young South Korean recruits fighting to protect their homeland and North Korean forces hunting traitors, interrogating civilians, and more.
54:16Modern Warfare 4 launches October 23rd. Pre-order digitally for early access to the campaign or pick up your physical disc on day one. Visit callofduty.com for more. Rated M for mature. >> You it has to be an inside job to get well from that stuff. >> It's also for for people's perspective if you're talking about what was Brett Grace Under Fire was '93?
54:44>> Mhm. >> In 1993, there was only four channels, okay? And then cable and nobody was watching cable not like that, not like sitcoms. And there was maybe 100 famous people on Earth. There was [laughter] nobody was famous back then. There's way more famous people. So, if you're a damaged person and then all of a sudden you're one of the most recognizable people in the world who Brett Butler was when that show was number two.
55:07>> Mhm. >> I mean, that was a huge show. She was on every magazine. You saw her everywhere. Like that kind of pressure and that kind of for a person who's already like struggling to keep it together that can be devastating. >> Yeah. I I I I often threaten to write a screenplay the perfect murder the perfect murder of an actress who is malicious and and destructive is to make her famous.
55:32It'll ruin her. So, I I've yet to write that story yet. But you want to do something harmful to somebody who's, you know, damaged in that way? Make them famous. It'll absolutely destroy them. >> Isn't that nuts? >> Yeah. >> It's nuts. Did she afterwards, I think she really fell apart after that show was over.
55:55I I'd heard at one point in time she was homeless. I don't think she is anymore. >> stories as well. I don't know. I don't know. >> It's such a sad turn of events, you know, because people wanted to love her, especially when she was on that show. >> They were rooting for her. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, she was a spokesman for the spokeswoman for you know, millions of women.
56:17>> Yeah. >> And men loved her, too, because she had balls. You know, she suffered no fools. >> Yeah. >> And she worked in an oil refinery. >> Yeah. >> On the show. >> It just sucks that so many talented people have that, whatever the [ __ ] it is, that self-sabotage gene, you know, that makes them not be able to ever change course and enjoy this fortune that they've been get given.
56:46>> Making an audience laugh temporarily fills the hole. >> Temporarily. >> Right. >> Yeah. >> And you go home and you're you're you're still that guy. >> Yeah. Yeah, that's the problem. >> Yep. >> Yeah. [snorts] >> [clears throat] >> Okay, what are we going to do about this? [laughter] >> Right. I don't think there's anything you can do about it.
57:03I mean, it's just a it's a tale as old as time. You know, it's And you talk about it in your book about if if happiness and success cured you of all your problems, you wouldn't see so many dead rock stars. You know, and I think you're you're dead on. I mean, that's they're all drugged out of their [ __ ] mind and they're all, like we were talking earlier, had you had seen at one point in time you saw Morrison.
Rock Stars and Self-Destruction
57:24You saw the Doors play for like 20 minutes before you tried to pull his dick out. >> It It was the shortest concert I've ever been [laughter] to. Literally, it was an outdoor it was a Singer Bowl, it was an outdoor kind of arena. Cops came in on horses hitting people over the head with sticks. Right?
57:43>> Because he pulled his dick out. >> And they had to stop the show. Because he'd already I think it was after he did it in Miami and he got arrested in Miami. >> That was his new move. It was like Bert Kreischer taking his shirt off. >> And I'm standing there with my friends smoking a joint going, "This is terrific.
58:00>> [laughter] >> This is fantastic. We were watching these horses go by. This is fantastic." We were We thought, "Well, yeah, okay. It would have been nice to maybe hear a second song." He They opened with Light My Fire, never finished it. >> Really? >> End of show. >> Oh my god. >> Yeah. >> That's crazy.
58:19>> This is cool, man. This is a great show. Let's get out of here before we get hit. >> Who did you say he was performing with again? >> Uh the warm-up act was The Who. >> Wow. >> It was you know, before Tommy they were a warm-up act then. Great stuff like My Generation, I Can See for Miles, that great stuff.
58:37>> Yeah. >> Before Tommy. Once Tommy hit they were they never were a warm-up act again. But this was just prior to Tommy. >> Wow. Dude. That's it but again, I mean, how many of them died at 27? Morrison, Hendrix, Joplin. >> Yeah. >> Although the Hendrix one's very weird. There's a lot of very interesting conspiracy theories about the Hendrix murder or the Hendrix death rather that it was perhaps a murder.
59:01He was leaving his manager, his manager was a shady mob character. His girlfriend after the murder after his death rather, uh she gets thrown off of a roof. Uh they said it was a suicide. It doesn't Seems a little sketchy. But his uh former bodyguard wrote a book about it. And apparently, you know, if Hendrix left, you know, his manager uh would lose out on all that money.
59:26But if Hendrix if was dead, then he would get royalties from all those songs forever. >> He He would He probably contractually would have had them anyway. I mean most managers those back in those days it was >> Oh, they had very predatory. Yeah. >> It was really predatory and corrupt. He would have had a piece of his publishing no matter what.
59:45Live or dead. You know, I listen I >> But he wouldn't have any of that in the future. >> asphyxiating on on his own vomit is heartbreaking into you know, a generational superstar. I mean there's he had a big impact on me. >> Oh my god. He was like unlike anyone before him. His sound was so completely unique [clears throat] that I mean Eric Clapton famously said like he felt he wanted to quit playing guitar when he saw him.
1:00:14It's just like and Eric Clapton was insanely good. >> Yes. >> For a guy like Eric Clapton, you know, listen go listen to the Derek and the Dominos Layla. >> Layla. >> Jesus >> Dwayne and so you know the moment >> Oh my god. >> back there. How >> Oh my god. >> Pat Pat that back and forth with him and Dwayne.
1:00:32>> Yeah. >> Layla have you ever loved a woman? My god. >> Clapton and cocaine. Just that. Oh my god. >> Yeah. >> That yeah, but that uh that story is just the story of his death is like oh, it's really it's a weird one. Whereas some of them do seem like normal drug overdoses, but the Hendrix one there's a lot of weird stuff to that one.
1:00:52Where it does seem like it's possible that he was murdered. Unfortunately, but all there's just a huge number of those guys died so young and it's because of what you're what you're talking about that whatever [ __ ] up thing that makes them so brilliant at performing. And it's like almost an attempt to the more brilliant you get it's the more you can fill that hole temporarily.
1:01:13The more love you get in these big bursts and then the crowd goes away and then you're by yourself and it's just back to the darkness and then the drugs and then the alcohol and then the chaos, and then fall ripping your life apart, and then there's another show, and there's another burst. You feeling good when you're on stage, then you get off stage, it's the same [ __ ] thing, and it never heals.
1:01:34>> It never heals from the outside. The outside stuff is glorious as it is, and fame and adulation, and and fancy cars. >> Yeah. >> It's great. It's wonderful. There's no reason to denigrate it. It's just it's not the real solution. The real solution, you know, I'm going to say it and then regret it, but the real solution is a spiritual solution.
Spirituality and Sobriety
1:01:57You have to find something beyond this world. >> Why would you regret that? Cuz you live in LA? >> [laughter] >> Cuz you're in your bubble? >> Because because it's part of it's part of my life. >> Right, but why would you regret saying that? >> Cuz it might seem like >> cliche. >> flaky and hairy-fairy and and, you know, woo-woo, new-age [ __ ] >> Yeah.
1:02:18>> But I don't know any other way. I just don't know. And I I I do know that um in my own life um seeking a spiritual solution, not finding it, but the act of seeking it is there's some salvation in that. You know. >> No, I think there is as well. I don't think there's anything silly about it, and I think the problem is the term has been co-opted.
1:02:41The term spirituality has been co-opted by people that you do consider to be flaky. That's the problem, you know. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> It's like, is it possible that you could preach the word of Jesus in front of a sold-out stadium and really be sincere? Yeah, sure, it's possible. But how many people are who are preaching in front of sold-out stadiums and giant arenas, how many of those are actually sincere?
1:03:07Well, it's a small percentage. It's not the same thing, you know. It doesn't mean it's not possible. >> No, it just has a bad name. >> It has a bad name, and spirituality has a bad name. It's attached to a lot of people that, you know, through no fault of their own, they're trying to find their own way, and they're using that kind of lingo, and maybe some of them are just still really [ __ ] up.
1:03:30And that word now gets attached to people that are claiming to be on a path to try to fix themselves. But you you just associate with people who are unsuccessful in the act, and they're just like it's like performative. Like they're like performatively being spiritual. Whereas I know some people that are like legitimately spiritual.
1:03:50Some of the nicest people that I know. They're like I I know this guy who's a a Christian, and all he does is build houses, like small homes for homeless people, and help them and get them jobs and get them get teach teach them skills and help them get clean. It's like >> I know people like that, too.
1:04:05They're real. >> Yeah, they're real, and they're all models. >> Yes. >> I want to be like that guy. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> They exist. >> Yeah, I I've been fortunate enough to know a few in my life, and they've had a deep impact. Um giving rather than taking. >> Yes. >> And um yeah. Yeah, no question about it.
1:04:26That that's uh That was not my nature. I didn't I didn't I didn't I didn't go out to Los Angeles a giver. >> No. >> I wanted Give me. You know >> Well, it was also the culture back then, right? >> It was all I knew, you know, and you know, I said the first page of the book was if I could have been better, if I could have done better, I would have.
1:04:49That was the best I could do. >> Mhm. >> You know. >> Which is real. >> Yeah, the selfish, self-centered, you know, dick. That was the best I could That was the best I had early on. It took a while. >> Yeah. Well, >> it's a work in progress, basically. >> We all are. >> Yeah. >> That's part of being a human being.
1:05:07You're a work in progress. If everybody's held to the the thing that they said when they were young and stupid. Oh my god, if that's who you are forever, some [ __ ] you said when you were 20 years old, like good lord. >> That's insane. >> It's insane. >> It's insane. It denies the fact that we change.
1:05:23>> Of course. >> We do change. >> Yeah. >> You know, I I you know, one of the coolest things about this book was me going, "Oh, what an idiot I Who do you Who is that guy? [laughter] Who is that guy? What a horrible human being. >> Yeah. >> What a selfish self-centered Jesus Christ, you just left her?
1:05:41You didn't say thank you? What is wrong with that man? And that man was me. You know. >> It's wild. >> And uh yeah, there's a therapeutic kind of cathartic quality to doing something like this to try and write about your life. And I I I'm an absolute laugh horse, so I wanted to make it as funny as I could cuz otherwise it's just boring.
1:06:06Who gives a [ __ ] about your life, Chuck? But if I make you laugh, then maybe it's worth reading. Um but um >> [clears throat]
1:06:19>> beginning with my childhood, you know, when I was a kid working for my dad, you know, those things That's that's me, but it's if I were to be held to what I said in 1969, it wouldn't go well for me. >> For anybody. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, um it's great that you're reading the audiobook, too. >> Was there I you know, I jokingly said in the book that I'd asked Idris Elba >> [laughter] >> or Brian Cox to read it and they passed.
1:06:49>> Brian Cox would be great. >> It would have been great to have some sonorous kind of really a baritone, a beautiful, you know, I that didn't happen. I made that up. But I I didn't really see how someone else could read my memoir. It didn't make sense to me. I How do you How does that make sense? >> No, it makes no sense.
1:07:06>> No. >> Um one of the things that you talked about that I think is very interesting is the Scientology angle. Um and the reason it's interesting is cuz when I was when I first came to Hollywood in '94, Scientology was everywhere. There were so many successful Scientologists that a lot of people were thinking about joining Scientology as a strategy to further their career.
1:07:27>> Absolutely. >> Yeah, like people don't need to understand that. Like it's hard for people of 2026 to wrap their head around the environment of California, Los Angeles 1994 and the impact that Scientology had because you had Tom Cruise, you had Jenna Elfman. Was that Was that around that time, Dharma & Greg?
1:07:45>> Yeah. >> You had uh I mean there was a ton of people, Kirstie Alley. There's a ton of people. >> Haggis. >> Super successful Scientologists who always seemed to have their [ __ ] together and they were like really focused and they were really career-oriented. And there were so many of us on the outside like, "Wow, maybe I should be a [ __ ] Scientologist.
1:08:02Seems like that'll help." >> That was They Listen, they built that thing called the Celebrity Centre on Franklin. >> Yeah. >> For the very purpose of uh Hubbard even wrote about it. People admire celebrities. They'll want to do what celebrities do. Let's make an environment that attracts celebrities.
1:08:23It was a PR gesture. He understood positioning, which is I think a marketing term where, you know, that's why famous people do TV commercials, you know? >> Yeah. >> You know, Peyton Manning says, "Buy this Buy GEICO." Peyton must know, he's a quarterback. >> Right. >> No, he doesn't know anything [laughter] about But But you're paying attention cuz he's famous and he's really good at what he does and now he's telling me how I should insure my car.
1:08:52Makes perfect sense, right? Um and Hubbard understood that early on that celebrities position Scientology in a way that will draw people in. And he was right. You know, I thought it would give me an edge. I thought that if I went down this road, it would give me uh an edge into the career that I wanted.
1:09:15>> What was it about it that you felt was going to give you an edge? Was it the philosophy behind it? Like the the way they structure their lives? Cuz I bought Dianetics on uh late night television commercial. I didn't even know what it was. >> Right. Right. >> I I didn't understand that that was Scientology.
1:09:32>> Yeah, I thought it was just a self-help book. >> Yeah, digging up um past trauma and and releasing the trauma, freeing up, you know, your life force because you're releasing the trauma of past experiences. >> Yeah. >> It It wasn't that far off the charts. >> Well, that was what L. Ron Hubbard did for the most part.
1:09:50>> He was a science fiction but he was a science fiction writer. >> He was a science fiction writer. Not only that, he wrote more fiction than any human being that's ever lived ever. >> Absolutely. Right up there. Yeah. >> He did. He wrote the most. >> Stephen King. >> [laughter] >> He wrote more than anybody.
1:10:00Anybody cuz he never wrote a second draft. Everything was like a first draft. It was all horrible. >> It was pretty shitty. >> It was the worst. >> Yeah. >> Uh but funny in that regard. Like that Battlefield Earth movie is [ __ ] fantastic just cuz it's so goofy. Have you seen it? >> I have. It's terrible.
1:10:14>> It's amazingly bad. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> [laughter] >> But it's But it's good bad. It's It's bad to the point where it's like, "What the [ __ ] am I watching?" Like, "Oh my god." >> When you're 21, 22-year-old me and you're scared to death, the world is big, the world is threatening, >> Yeah. >> I don't know what's going on.
Joining Scientology
1:10:32I want to be in music. I want to have a career in music as a songwriter. These people promised me they knew a way for me to do that. And I was so vulnerable to that promise. >> How did you get introduced to it? >> I was playing in a band that was traveling around the country, cover band, and playing bars, nightclubs around the country.
1:10:54And the sax player was a Scientologist. And um We were in Columbus, Ohio. And uh we had a day off from the gig. And he said, "I'm going to the to Scientology uh center in Columbus, Ohio. You want to come with me?" I didn't know what Scientology was. I had just totaled my car in Iowa. So, I had nowhere to go.
1:11:20>> [laughter] >> I was going to be sitting in my room. So, I said, "Yeah, [ __ ] it. Sure, I'll go." And uh wouldn't you know, there were pretty girls there. >> [laughter] >> So, I'm in. [snorts] There's pretty girls here. >> Oh, they're very smart. Are they very young? >> about that. And uh I bought a thing called the communications course, which promised to improve my ability to communicate.
1:11:43What could go wrong with that? >> What could go wrong with that? >> Obviously, I'm in I'm a musician and I'm trying to, you know, become a songwriter. That's That's a communication issue. You know, anything in the arts is communicating. I could get better at that. Why wouldn't I do that? And uh And what he was doing, he had these drills called training routines.
1:12:08And the first one, TR 0, was you would sit like we're sitting right now in front of each other. And just be in front of each other. No twitching, no laughing, no giggling, no uh no getting creepy, no no getting lost in thought. Just just sit there. What I didn't know, I got really good at it, too. What I didn't know was it's just meditation.
1:12:36It was just meditation. It was just learning to be still, which is meditation. Just learning to be still and not being tossed around by every [ __ ] thought that comes screaming through your head like, you know, a tree full of rabid monkeys. And that first time I I it, opposite a pretty girl.
1:12:56The It was a woman who was running the classroom, communications course. I said, >> [clears throat] >> "I have this feeling like I'm up in the corner of the ceiling looking down at me." And she yelled out, "Chuck has gone exterior." I didn't know what that meant. But it was an extraordinary experience.
1:13:21I I I I have a very vivid memory of being up near the ceiling looking down on me sitting in front of this this woman doing training routine zero. >> So, it worked. >> It worked. I had I popped out of my head and I had an out-of-body experience. I didn't know what was happening. I didn't understand what exterior I know what the word meant, but I didn't know understand this is a as but it felt good.
1:13:48The only other time that happened to me having that experience was when I flipped my car over at 70 miles an hour in Iowa and [snorts] I remember seeing the accident from up in the sky looking down at it as the car was >> more like a near-death experience. >> a near-death experience, but it was also a very calm Huh.
1:14:09>> Wow. >> as the car is flipping over down an embankment and uh And so, the experience it's it's a powerful experience and I wanted to pursue it. I wanted more of that. >> Well, that makes sense. I mean, if the what's interesting is if you get a kid, a young guy or a young woman in uh a very suggestible state >> Yep.
1:14:33>> and in this >> [clears throat] >> uh heightened moment where they really believe there's some real significance to them sitting there and doing this exercise and that something big is going to happen, your brain can trigger endogenous states that that actually are real. So, it's like what they're saying is kind of true, even though it's kooky.
1:14:52Like a lot of it's very kooky. Like some of these methods of just doing that kind of stuff, it can have powerful transcendent results >> Nobody told me this was going to happen. It just happened. >> Yeah. >> You know, I was just told to sit there and just be relaxed and just be there in front of another human being without you know, getting uncomfortable.
1:15:12If you get uncomfortable, just deal with it. Just sit there. That's all I was told. That was the entire instruction. Nobody said you're going to be up near the ceiling watching. >> Did you try to recreate that experience? And it never happened again? >> On another occasion. >> Did it Did you ever try to recreate it with the with the same woman?
1:15:31>> No. >> Maybe it's her. >> [laughter] >> Maybe that's it. Maybe it's like being there with a beautiful girl and with her looking in your eyes, you're looking at hers. Maybe that triggers the thing. >> I don't think it had anything to do with her. >> No? >> No. >> It was just you were in that suggestible moment?
1:15:47>> I just But who was suggesting what? No one suggested anything. It remains a mystery and I'm okay with it being a mystery. >> Mhm. >> But it's certainly it's certainly it was it's not one that I've forgotten. >> There's a documentary called Holy Hell and it's about this uh cult leader that used to live in Austin for a while.
1:16:05And um one of the weird things this guy did, he was a yoga teacher and also he was a hypnotist and a gay porn star. So, it the the documentary is crazy. >> Right. >> But in one of the things uh that he would do with this cult is he would do a thing called the knowing. And they had to be ready for it.
1:16:24He had to decide they were ready for it and they'd have the ceremony. And when they had the ceremony, he would touch their their head. He'd put his hands on their head and they'd experience this unbelievable like psychedelic moment where they contacted God and they all talked about it. Like cuz the anticipation of this moment was so heightened and there there was so suggestible and he was you know an actual professional hypnotist and when he would put his hands on them whatever it was inside
1:16:52their brain that would just release and to even after they talked about him being a fraud of they all left the the cult and they said all these terrible things that he did they still said that moment was the most powerful moment of their life. >> Hypnotism is a powerful mechanism. It really is. >> You know I think that that That's I don't know I've not heard of this but that's that's a story of a hypnotist.
1:17:14>> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. A hypnotist that really can give you the greatest moment of your life even though everything else he's done is terrible. >> Yeah. >> Like even though he's taking everybody's money and [ __ ] everybody and it's always the same story he did make them see God. That's what's weird about it and so many people are looking for something to take them out of their state the state they're in now and if it's Scientology if it's being a Mormon if it's Catholicism whatever it is like people
1:17:42are trying to find something that gets them >> Jack Daniels cocaine >> ecstasy >> Yeah. >> But for you so I I never actually went to a Scientology meeting or anything like that I just got the book but they never stopped emailing me or mailing me rather every day I had had a one of those UPS boxes and every day it would be some new invitation to some Scientology event.
1:18:06>> got on the mailing list. >> I didn't realize that was even Scientology when I bought the book. I thought it was just L Ron Hubbard's going to teach me how to kick ass. >> Yes absolutely. >> [laughter] >> I always call it you know is this going to give me an edge on the universe. >> So when you first started doing it when did you start thinking maybe this is a little wacky?
1:18:27>> My entire community of friends everybody was in was in. >> Wow. >> Everybody. And uh I couldn't help notice my life was [ __ ] And and these other people who I admired and I looked up to, they were getting in car accidents, getting divorced, catching colds, basically being just human beings, dealing with whatever [ __ ] was coming down the road, not the evolved, you know, spiritual titans that were that they were what Scientology was promising, you know, the exalted, you know,
1:19:05spiritual, enlightened beings. They people, you know, you know, I I you know, got to I got to You weren't supposed to get a cold. You were supposed to be, you know, you you you was The promise was you were going to rise up above all these human >> Right. >> m- minutia, you know, dilemmas and problems and whatnot, and and you were going to have this remarkable insight into the world, and you'd have power.
1:19:32Power being a very powerful and power being powerful being a real hook. Cuz if you're a young, scared guy like I was, power was missing. >> Right. >> There was no power. I was just scrambling to try and get my foot in any door that would open. And so here these people come in, promise you the one thing you don't have as a young, stupid man is power.
1:20:00And it was an easy sell. And I, you know, and I uh it it took It took me 10 years to realize, "Wait, this isn't working." >> Took 10 years? >> Yeah. This isn't working. And my wife at the time, uh she was in in in the in Scientology as well. We both kind of went had a moment alone one night going, "This is bullshit."
1:20:23>> [laughter] >> You know, 10 10 years 10 years it took to wake the [ __ ] up. And we bailed out. And we lost all our friends. We were excommunicated. >> Did they [ __ ] with you at all? >> No, cuz I had no money. >> Oh. >> Nobody chases you if you have money. >> Right. You weren't successful enough for them to miss you when you left.
1:20:44>> You're right. >> Yeah. >> See you. And uh And it really began the you know the the turn into my life that we're talking about here, which was I decided that I'm not going to look for some outside element to help me go where I want to go. I'm just going to work my ass off. And for the next 10 years I worked like a dog till I scrambled in and eventually, you know, got on a show where I'm, you know, getting yelled at by Roseanne Barr.
1:21:15>> [laughter] >> But I but I succeeded beyond my wildest dreams. >> So it didn't hurt you to leave. It hurt It hurt you in terms of >> It was imperative for me to leave cuz I finally took responsibility for my life. >> Mhm. >> It's on me. It's not on what this guy says. It's on me. It's what I believe, what I perceive.
1:21:35And a lot of that perception and belief was [ __ ] I was still, you know, a frightened young guy trying to find his way in the world, but it was on me. I wasn't going to I wasn't looking for some outside wisdom to give me leverage. I was just going to I was going to work until I dropped to get where I needed to go.
1:21:55And, you know, the the funny uh ending of that story was I succeeded. I succeeded. I had the career I I couldn't have dreamed of. And I still couldn't and still didn't solve the hole. >> Mhm. >> The dark hole in the soul that we were talking about. >> Right. >> You know, which uh which, you know, led to the other change in my life, which is Was it 27 and 1/2 years ago I stopped drinking.
1:22:24So um And that's been a massive change. You know. So, because again, you know, what I keep saying over and again, I'm not sure I'm saying it clearly. The one thing that is clear is the outside the outside stuff whether they be experiences or stuff or rela- relationships or Mickey's marriages it doesn't it's a band-aid.
1:22:51It doesn't It doesn't heal the wound. The wound has to be dealt with in a in some other way that's personal. The spiritual path of your own, you know, your choice. You call it. Doesn't matter. If it's Christ, if it's Yahweh, if it's the Quran if it's Latter-Day Saints or if it's Eckhart Tolle, it doesn't matter.
1:23:17Pick one. Pick one. That's your best shot out of that out of that darkness as far as I can tell. >> Uh I think you're probably very accurate. Uh I I think you could probably do it on your own but uh I don't know very many people who have. Yeah. >> hard. >> It's hard. >> animals. You know, I think we thrive >> Yeah.
1:23:39>> in groups. I I think that's how we're wired. I think the worst thing that could have happened a million years ago in a tribe was to be thrown out of the tribe. You're going to die. >> Right. >> You get kicked out of the tribe because of misbehavior. >> Mhm. >> I don't know what misbehavior is in in uh the play place the scene error >> Yeah.
1:23:57>> in Neanderthals but if you got kicked out, you're dead. >> Whitney Cummings told me that's why people have stage fright. That's why they have a fear of public speaking. She say She said because when we were in tribes, if you had to speak in front of the public, you were defending yourself. >> That's probably very true.
1:24:11>> And you probably were going to get kicked out of the tribe. >> Kicking out was a sentence of death. >> Yeah. >> And so I I we're desperately in need of one another and that's not good, better, indifferent. It's just the way we are. >> Right. >> Right? >> Which is what what people so prone to ideologies, to religious cults, to to all sorts of different things.
1:24:29>> to be part of a group. >> Want to be part of a group. >> Yeah, even if the group is wrong, it's a group. >> Right. >> It doesn't matter. Right or wrong is irrelevant. I'm in this group. >> Yeah. >> Look at I got friends. >> And people will do wrong things to defend the group. They Yeah. >> to the death.
1:24:42>> Yes. >> We go to war over over these groups. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It's it's a weird thing. It's just uh for a lot of people it's finding a good one. They just find find one that works. Find some sort of some sort of a spiritual path that gives you some sort of peace of mind. >> And it doesn't hurt others.
1:25:02>> And doesn't hurt others. >> Yeah, that's it. It's not really complicated. >> Right. Yeah. >> Yeah. You know, but we don't live in a culture that that that pursues that. I mean, we live in a culture of consumption. You know. >> Yeah, I think there's more people aware of that now today. Um but it's just guide book.
1:25:21There's no operator manual on how to be a person that's very effective. And even religions, like you're kind of figuring it out on your own. It's not it's not as laid out as I'd like it to be, you know? Like very clearly from the beginning to the end, this is how you're supposed to behave, this is what's wrong, this is what the like this is what the the the greater spiritual path, this is why it exists.
1:25:44>> I was raised in a Jewish household. No one ever talked. Ever. No rabbis, my parents ever discussed having a connection with God. Pursuing God. Seeking God. What's my reason for being here? Why am I alive? How did this happen? It was never discussed. It was just do this and shut up. Right? Here are the rules, do the rules, and move it on.
1:26:13Right? >> And that was that was how they were raised, too. So, you know, it's not like there there was no malice. It was just here the rules of our of our of our tribe. Do the rules. And and uh at no point was there a connection made with this could be the most important thing in your life. This could actually solve the whole dilemma of being a human being.
1:26:42It had nothing to do with that. It was it was a rules-based religion. It was it honored some wonderful things like education, you know, and and there was a great deal of of goodness to it, societal goodness, you know. I think I mentioned in my book that my father was one of 11 Republicans in the country.
1:27:06>> [laughter] >> 11 Jewish Republicans >> 11 Jewish Republicans in the country. I I left out the the keyword cuz he you know, he believed in his heart each man for himself, you know. Pull yourself up by the bootstraps and stuff. And he believed that dearly. But um
Searching for Meaning and Religion
1:27:28I lost my train of thought. >> Well, we were just talking about having some sort of a a connection with God and a spiritual connection and that this is what helped you become sober and get out of the darkness. I mean, this is the roundabout way of it. Um What So, did you do Alcoholics Anonymous? Like is that what >> Let's not talk about that.
1:27:48>> Okay. >> Yeah, no. >> But I just wanted to know like what what >> Let's let's focus on the word anonymous. >> Okay. >> Okay, just I got sober. >> You got sober. >> Yeah. >> But through that you started exploring spirituality. >> It was inevitable. >> It was a part of it. >> It's inevitable. You know, and you know, the the most extraordinary thing um I it's hard to do this and retain anything like anonymity, but >> [snorts] >> there is the encouragement to pursue a god of your understanding.
1:28:26Not someone else's. >> Mhm. >> Yours. That was a remarkable That's an a remarkable insight for me. Really, I get to choose. Huh. Wow. Wow, this doesn't This is not a ritualistic here do this, do that, you know? >> It's not about don't eat fish on Friday or pork ever. It's about finding something greater than yourself.
1:29:02It's not that hard to do given of your understanding, that could be the ocean. It could be whatever you choose it to be. Could be a [ __ ] doorknob. But it's it's critical. It's critical. >> What was the path like? So, you you go from becoming sober and this idea of worshipping something or >> No. >> No, not worshipping.
1:29:32Okay, what's the word? >> The word word is worshipping >> Respecting something as a higher power? >> worship is uh I don't understand that word. Um No, it's just recognizing. It's just recognizing. >> Okay. >> something else going on here and it ain't me. That's it. There's no worship involved. There's no genuflecting or, you know, um There's service.
1:29:59It's how can I be better in this world? There is There is that. There is that, you know? Um And for somebody like me who was gimme all the time is always gimme gimme I need I need more more is not enough >> Yeah. >> Right? I need more. And when that ceases to work when you finally wake up and go and there is no more more is never enough.
1:30:25Um when you when you finally give in to the reality is that that will never do the job. I will always be empty. If that's the way I'm trying to go about it then you then there's a possibility that's the bottom. And that the bottom is where you decide to stop digging. And the bottom is where you go okay let's try something else.
1:30:53>> Do you do you have a negative connotation with the word worship? >> Not really. It's just I think it's not for It's not what I recognize. >> What do you think worship is? Like in in your mind what do you Is that >> Obedience, you know, being subservient, >> Yeah. >> you know, punishing, you know, all powerful, you know, thing that's going to, you know, punish and whatever, you know.
1:31:17>> Right. >> The The Old Testament stuff. >> Well, okay. >> You know. >> I don't know if they have to be connected though. I don't think of worship in that way. I think um I think a lot of people do though and I I especially when you get into the Old Testament stuff. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, I I just for me
1:31:39what I've been doing for the last many years it worked. What can I tell you? >> Right. >> truly understand it. I really don't. It's so much of it is counterintuitive. But it worked. You know. Now I'm by all means that if you read the book this This a guy who's got some serious issues. >> [laughter] >> I haven't I haven't, you know, I haven't cleared that hurdle by any means, but it's better.
1:32:07It's a better life than the one I had. >> And is this an Was this an arc for you, or was this a quick realization upon getting sober? >> Slow. >> Was a slow >> Slow sobriety >> process to get to where you are now? >> Yeah. Slow. Slow. >> And do you define it like what you're serving or what you're what you worship not bad words bad words, sorry.
1:32:29What you appreciate about the higher power? Or you don't have to define it. >> think language is really equipped for it. >> Right. >> language the very act of putting a word on it limits it. The very act of saying this is a thing, a noun. I don't know if this going to sound strange, but um I think it's a verb.
1:32:57I think it's an act It's It's a process. It's It's a It's action. It's not It's not a It's not a brick. >> Right. >> It's It's moving. Whatever it is. >> Whatever greater power it is. >> is, it's not a static thing. >> I think that's a better way to describe it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And And again, language wants to solidify it.
1:33:24Language wants to name it. This is a This is this. >> Right. >> And language is a beautiful thing. I love language is one of my favorite things. Words have been good to me. Making up words and putting them together in sentences has been terrific for me. I'm really grateful for words and language, but there's a limitation to what words can show you about about about what's going on.
1:33:51>> Yeah, most certainly. And that's a I think that's an important point, like what you're saying, is that it's it's moving and that it's alive and this is not a you know, that's I think one of the problems that secular people have with the term God. They think of a guy in a robe that lives in the clouds and it's ridiculous instantaneously.
1:34:10>> We see a man in the [ __ ] moon. We anthropomorphize anthropomorphize everything. We see our images everywhere we look, right? And it's it's kind of a it's amusing when it's not doesn't cause war. >> Right. Good point. It's also connected to a lot of the ancient depictions of it, unfortunately. You have to think about like ancient depictions of God and Moses and all these biblical figures who figures who are painted in the garb of the day in which that painting was made.
1:34:44>> Remember, these people are looking up at the night sky going, "What the fuck?" >> Yeah. >> "What the fuck?" >> [laughter] >> Who's making the lightning? >> What's happening here? The gods are fighting. Yeah, no, they had to they had to come up with a story. We are, you know, I mean, have you ever read any of the um Yuval Harari books?
1:35:04>> Yes. >> He makes it really clear, that's our superpower. We tell ourselves stories and we believe them. >> Right. >> And it we congregate around them and we are able to mobilize millions and millions of people around a fiction. >> Yeah. >> It doesn't even have to be true. We just need to believe it and we're all moving in we're all marching in the same direction.
1:35:26It it's monkeys don't do that. >> Right. >> Monkeys don't have a monkey god. >> Right. >> They're just monkeys. Hey, pick these mites off of me. Thank you very much, you know? But they don't they don't organize around what is essentially a belief. It's not true neither you want to call it true or not, it's an organizing uh element that uh no other animal does.
1:35:49It's you know, so we get to uh we get to rule or and or ruin the world. >> And we want to define the structure of whatever that thing is. Uh that we we want to we want to it even if we're pretending, we want to give order to it. >> Absolutely. We disorder is uh >> Too scary. >> Too scary. >> Too scary.
1:36:12Too crazy. >> [ __ ] Look at this. You know, it's >> Also, you can't have people running around making up their own order. That'll [ __ ] everything up. You can't have a bunch of people who are Well, God's been talking to me. You know what he tells me? Pork is awesome. >> [laughter] >> You can't have that guy.
1:36:29>> Yeah. And And listen, you know, in in uh you can see where uh when civilizations or cultures that took God out of the picture, they replaced it >> Yes. >> with the Communist Party. >> Yeah. >> Right? With a fascist dictator. >> Yeah. >> You know? It's same idea. >> Mhm. >> Organize around me. >> Sure.
1:36:51>> Right? Doesn't matter if I'm right or not, organize around me and people will. And if you take that away from them, they get angry. Yeah. It freaks them out because it's like the tent pole if that tent pole moves, the tent comes down. And everything, you know, if you believe that this is the truth and someone says, "No, it's not.
1:37:14It's bullshit." Everything else you believe is in is in fair play. Everything. >> Right. >> Right? The tent collapses. So, people will fight to the death to keep the tent pole up. Doesn't matter if it's true or not, it's the tent pole. >> I have a friend of mine who grew up Mormon and she left the Mormon church.
1:37:33And when she left the Mormon church, she said, "I'm so susceptible to believing anything cuz I believed everything they told me for so long that I didn't critically think about anything." So, she's like, "Any spiritual people, healers, all that stuff." She goes, "I'm so susceptible. I believe everything."
1:37:50>> Yeah, I I think I think growing up in the way I grew up, I was a vacuum. I was wide open. You got a You've got You know how to get out of this this madness of this world that's so frightening? >> Right. >> Show me. >> Yeah. >> I got nothing. I got nothing. I'll go You know, I was I was absolutely uh fragile.
1:38:12Stupid, fragile. >> Like most people. >> Yeah. And you know, that's I got to write down I got to write it down. >> Yeah. Well, that's the beauty of it. That fragility and that emotion and all that chaos that comes out in creativity. And the the the added benefit that Scientology has over everybody is that they've got all these successful celebrities.
1:38:33That was the big one for me. >> Back in the day, yeah. >> Oh my god, that was the big one. I was like I felt like they knew something I didn't know. Like whatever they're on I And I didn't really know the whole story. I didn't really know the whole story until much, much, much later. I had heard versions of what they believe and it wasn't until going clear, Lawrence Wrightsburg book.
1:38:56>> Yeah, great book. >> A great book. >> Great book. >> I was like, holy [ __ ] >> Yeah. >> Yeah, once wasn't until that until I really kind of got the grip of what it's all about and how >> A big part of it was secrets. >> Yeah. >> You know, institutionally held secrets. They glue you. I want to know the secret.
1:39:16>> Yeah. >> I stick around, I'll find out the secret. Cuz we were all looking for, you know, we're all looking for a secret that we were looking for. >> The knowing. >> Yeah. >> Yes. And and keeping that stuff secret, purposefully secret, and we were told that some of this higher level stuff >> Yeah.
1:39:32>> could conceivably kill you if you're not ready. I'm not kidding. >> I'm not kidding either. >> It was that those words were used. If you're not ready for these higher level spiritual things. It will destroy you. Drive you mad. >> When I bought my first house in '96, my next door neighbor was a Scientologist.
1:39:52And there was a piece of land we were just talking in front of the house and there was a piece of land next to his house that he was going to buy but he had to put it off because his wife was going clear. And I go, "What does that mean?" He goes, "Well, it's this ceremony that she undergoes and afterwards she will no longer be affected by outside influences."
1:40:11I was like, "Whoa, how are they going to do that?" And they explained to me I go, "What what why do you have to put off the sale?" He goes, "Cuz it costs $50,000." >> They sent her to a flag in Florida. >> Is that what it is? >> Yeah. >> [laughter] >> Yeah. There's a there's this own thing in I guess in Clearwater.
1:40:26It's incredibly expensive. >> Go clear in Clearwater? >> Incredibly expensive. >> 50 grand? This guy was a construction guy. He had a construction business. >> Well, he's probably a million dollars now. >> Ooh. Yeah, so in '96. >> I don't know but um And there was a very purposeful thing. Putting a high price tag on it made it important.
1:40:49It's smart. >> Yeah. >> It's smart. It's you know, it's marketing 101. If you give it away, it doesn't have as much value as if you say it's worth $50,000. >> I think Paul Haggis was the one in the documentary who was discussing when he first got a hold of like one of the ancient stories that is like super secret and he read it and was like, "What the [ __ ] am I reading?"
1:41:11>> Right. >> Cuz it was just kooky Elron Hubbard. >> It was science fiction stuff. >> Oh. >> Yeah. >> Oh. >> Yeah, but you know, I mean >> Hey, whatever floats your boat. >> One of the gifts of this of writing a memoir was uh I found my way to be able to forgive myself. You know? Rather than be embarrassed.
1:41:36Used I would never tell people that I spent 10 years in a cult. It's humiliating. What a dope, right? I would, you know, I I I was so frightened of being wrong, right? Um and in writing this thing I was wrong. >> [laughter] >> It's okay. It's okay I was wrong. I was young. I was frightened. I made some bad choices.
1:42:04I got I got through it. I was blessed to have some angels come along along the way to help me through it. A lot of that stuff. But I got through it and and I don't have to be humiliated by being a foolish young man anymore, you know. >> Well, that's part of the maturity of age. You realize being a foolish young man is almost inevitable.
1:42:27There's no getting around it. We're we're all foolish. >> Agreed. And that's [clears throat] uh I you know, I was I was watching an interview you did the other day cuz I wanted to learn about what I was sitting down in with Tim Robbins. And he said something that struck me as worth repeating, which is um a remarkable insight, I thought, and it was it was a remarkable insight for me.
Humility and Collaboration
1:42:52It came very late in life. But >> [clears throat] >> it was simply the power of saying I don't know. What a relief. >> Yeah. >> To not pretend I know. >> [laughter] >> Right? What a relief to not, you know, to not act as if I I have I have a handle on this. >> Right. >> I don't. And what's great is when you're sitting in a room full of people making a TV comedy, a sitcom.
1:43:18>> [snorts] >> And they all look at you. You know, cuz the second act doesn't work and everybody looks at you. And it's a great feeling to go, I don't know. >> [laughter] >> It stinks. Anybody? Anybody? You know, I'm I'm open to anybody having a solution to this shitty second act, but I I actually don't know, and I'm okay with that.
1:43:37In the past, I would have gone on some long diatribe trying to convince everybody I knew what I was doing. It's exhausting. >> Yeah. >> I don't. You know, I don't. I'm doing the best I can. And when I don't know, it's freedom to say I don't know. It's freedom. Oh. Shoulders go down, you exhale, and you seek to collaborate.
1:44:05>> So many people need to learn that lesson. Cuz it's a burden that you don't have to carry. You're you're carrying around an unnecessary burden. That's propped up by your own ego, and it's it's [ __ ] with your consciousness. >> I think it's how we're raised, too. >> Uh-huh. >> You know, I don't think, you know, we're not taught as children to admit to ignorance.
1:44:29>> Right. >> You know, it's just it's not how we're raised. It's not it's you know, >> man Right. >> does the right [clears throat] thing. He knows what to do. He's he's he's the leader. He's he's John Wayne in my generation. You know, I was more Steve McQueen, but okay, a little later. >> Yeah. >> But you're certainly not taught to say to have humility and say, "I I don't know."
1:44:52And humility has a bad taint to it because it it it it's it's it it smells of weakness, but it's not. It's the opposite of weakness. >> Right. >> Oh my god, you know, to be able to say, "I don't know. Help me." is is actually an incredible strength. >> And it's much more admirable. It's for for people on the outside watching, they they they recognize it as being true.
1:45:18It's a this is a >> Yeah. >> authentic moment rather than someone bullshitting you, where you know they're bullshitting you, and they know that you know, and everybody just goes through this stupid [ __ ] dance. >> One of the questions I get asked all the time now that I'm in the twilight of my career is what's the secret sauce, you know?
1:45:39What's what's you know, what if anything carries through all the different TV shows and what not? And the word that comes to mind is collaboration. I I I didn't do anything alone. You know? I you know, you come out of the comedy world, you know that writing comedy with others is really a gas. And it's far more effective.
1:46:05>> 100%. >> I learned so much by being in a room for 25 years with great writers. And one of the things I talk about in the book, which is really meaningful to me, was when I got the chance to do The Kominsky Method with Michael Douglas, I decided I wanted to write it alone to see if I still could write alone, cuz I'd been in a room with people yelling at each other for years.
1:46:31No, this is funny. This is funny. No, do it this way. And it would get volatile, you know, comedy writers. You [ __ ] nuts? What are you stupid? It got mean, right? But when I sat down and write wrote those scripts by myself, I realized all those guys were in the room with me. They're in my head. You know?
1:46:52Really? You think that's funny? It's you know, it's a [ __ ] pun, you [ __ ] >> [laughter] >> You know, that guy's that guy is in my head. He was part of me now. And I wasn't I was writing alone, but I wasn't alone. All those guys and you know, when when you watch a great stand-up, it gets in your head.
1:47:10You don't copy that guy. But his insight can change the way you perceive things. >> 100%. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. A stand-up always says that he writes and he thinks about himself as a defense attorney defending the bit as he's writing it. >> Who is this? >> Doug Stanhope. >> I don't know. >> Hilarious. Great standup.
1:47:35>> Huh. >> Hilarious guy. But he he looks at it like he's like that bit is being tried. How does he defend this bit? And he makes sure that he lays it out in that way. >> That's great. >> Yeah. >> That's great. >> the same thing like having someone in your head that's like a critic that's going to look at it and go, "Hey, what the [ __ ] is this part?"
1:47:53You know, and you're like, "You lazy [clears throat] [ __ ] This scene isn't >> Hey, hey, hey. Are you in the scene? >> All right, let's [ __ ] work together here and fix it. >> [laughter] >> Yeah. >> You know, and and what a gift, you know, and so uh you know it again going back to that word humility is a strength.
1:48:15I I I I succeeded cuz I counted on other people. >> 100% There's no If you've been on a set of a sitcom in particular, there's no way to do it on your own. It's like every you need to have a a lot of brilliant people working together for it to work out well. >> Have you interviewed this guy Taylor Sheridan?
1:48:33>> Yeah, he's a good friend of mine. >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> Okay, that's that might be the the anomaly. Cuz you know, I I I love that stuff. I love all that stuff. I watch everything. I you know, I'm just >> He's a freak. He just turns them out. >> so [ __ ] lazy >> [laughter] >> Me, too. >> I'm such a just a just I'm driftwood.
1:48:57He wrote it and directed it and then he had time to write that great feature and holy [ __ ] >> Yeah, he turns them out. >> I just and it's good. It's one thing to turn it out and it's one thing to turn out quality. >> You seen Hell and High Country? >> Yeah, Hell and High Water run it. Is that what it is?
1:49:13Hell and High Water? >> Yeah, that's a [ __ ] great movie. >> And I just um the Sicario stuff. >> Yes. >> And then 1883 and 1923 with Helen Mirren and Harrison Ford. >> [sighs] >> Wow. >> No, he's he creates banger after banger. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, Lioness. I haven't watched Lioness, but everybody tells me that's incredible.
1:49:34>> It's fantastic. >> Landman. >> Landman's fantastic. Yeah, I you know um Billy Bob Thornton um >> Billy Bob. >> Billy Bob. >> Yeah. >> Unbelievable. Great stuff. >> Yeah, man. It's like >> It was funny, the pitch for that show was he was going to do Bad Santa but on an oil rig. And he's like, "Fuck yeah, I'm in."
1:49:52>> [laughter] >> Bad Santa as an oil man. >> I got to work with him once, Billy Bob. He His people, his representatives called me and said, "Billy Bob wants to be on The Big Bang Theory." I'm sorry, what? Yeah, this is an Oscar-winning, you know, Sling Blade guy wants to be on The Big Bang Theory. I said, "I'm I'm sorry, you're going to have to give me more."
1:50:18He was His mother loves the show. And as a gift to his mother, he wants to be on the show. >> Oh, wow. >> And we did it. >> That's awesome. >> And we loved it. We had a great time. >> That's so cool. >> He played a 50-year-old version of them who lived in his mother's basement. >> [laughter] >> After all these years and all these shows, um what what keeps you doing it now?
1:50:42Like what do you enjoy about the process now? >> I'm a laugh [ __ ] Making people laugh is fun. You know? And and sitting in the writer's room is fun. Sometimes it's want to tear your hair out cuz it's hard. But every once in a while, you know, you hit something and you go, "Oh, this is good. This is really good."
1:51:03And uh what the [ __ ] else would I do? >> [laughter] >> Well, you could kind of do whatever you That's why I'm asking you. >> So, I'm asking you. I can do whatever I want. What am I doing? I can travel. That's a couple of weeks. Now what? >> Right. >> Okay. Um I'm going to garden? Uh no, I don't see me in the I don't see me in the tulips.
1:51:30Keep going. What am I doing? I get a chance to make people laugh. That's not a bad way to spend the day. You know? So. >> No, it's an awesome way to spend the day, but some people the the stress of continuing continuing to create and continuing to produce things. Like it eventually gets to them where they just like, I want off the ride.
1:51:56>> What I've done, and you really hit on something there, is the stress of it at a certain point is intolerable. It's just intolerable. I just I find myself becoming the curse the short-tempered curmudgeon. >> Right. >> The old guy who has no patience. I don't want to be that guy. So, I'm I've been gradually pulling myself back into more of a consultant role where I'm not If I'm on the stage at a rehearsal and the actors play out a scene and the scene ends, everybody looks and
1:52:36sees looks at me and goes is it okay? So, my very presence suffocates the process. I am the plastic bag from the dry cleaners, right? I kill small children. So, I have this extraordinary writing staff, wonderful cast and crew, and sometimes my presence can be um I don't want to say destructive, but it doesn't encourage people to step up and go what about?
1:53:12How about if >> Right. >> this joke doesn't work. Can we beat it? You know, it doesn't it doesn't invite collaboration. Um and the sad truth is they think I know. I don't know. I'm guessing. We're all, you know, you in the comedy business it's a game of guessing. I think this is funny. Uh I guess wrong.
1:53:36Right? When it does when it dies. >> Right. >> Uh let's fix it. Uh no harm, no foul. I'm not a horrible person cuz it died. I'm just it just died. >> Do they feel less likely to take chances when you're around? >> I think I suck up a lot of oxygen at this time in my career. >> Makes sense. >> You know, I remember one time Norman Lear came to the set cuz he was going to go back into me he made a a a a a uh a a a version of uh One Day at a Time and he was executive producing a remake
Creative Stress and Legacy
1:54:07of one of his shows from the '70s. And he asked, "Can I come and watch you guys work?" to uh see how it's being done now. This is 35, 40 years after he his day. And of course, you know, jeez, Norman Lear's going to come watch us work. Which I was a nervous wreck after every joke I'm looking is is Norman laughing?
1:54:28Is Norman laughing? But I asked him I remember this really vivid moment when I said, "Are you going to write the pilot for this new sitcom you're going to make?" And he went, "Are you crazy? >> [laughter] >> If I give it if I write the pilot nobody's going to give me notes. Nobody's going to give me any constructive feedback.
1:54:47I'm all by myself. I'm not going to write it. If it says written by Norman Lear, who's going to do the punch-up? >> Right. >> I'm not saying I'm Norman Lear. He reinvented television. I carried on. You know, I I've been keeping it going, but he really changed the game. So, I don't want to >> effect. >> I I it's the same effect.
1:55:05At a certain point in my career, I've noticed I have a The word stultifying comes to mind effect on the process. And the people I love working with could give a [ __ ] about my opinion, and I love that. Because then there's back and forth. Then there then there's arguments. There's you know, there's uh there's collaboration.
1:55:29>> Yeah, that and it has to happen that way to do it right. That's fun. That Well, it's also great that you recognize that your presence can make them nervous and [ __ ] it up. >> Yeah, and you want to go and know that you don't understand. I actually don't know what I'm doing. I'm just guessing. I'm guessing based on a lot of experience, but I'm still guessing.
1:55:49And uh and uh >> That's just your reputation precedes you. You've had too many hits. You you've you know, >> It's a beautiful problem. >> Yeah, it's the best problem. It's better than the Certainly better than the opposite problem. >> I started The Big Bang Theory, I had I I could barely do one show.
1:56:04The Two and a Half Men. It was It was 60 hours a week, easy. And then I started The Big Bang Theory, I called Norman's office. Cold call. Said, "I'm Chuck Lorre. I I got a show on CBS. I'm about to have a second show." At one point, he had seven shows on [snorts] television. >> Simultaneously? >> Simultaneously.
1:56:28I said, "Would he be available to talk to me? Maybe give me some tips?" And he uh very graciously invited me over to his office. And I sat down, and I said, "I'm about to start production on a second show. I can barely do the one, and now I'm going to do two. What can you tell me?" And he said, "You're not going to like the answer."
1:56:55>> [laughter] >> And it boiled down to he said you go where the fire's burning the brightest and you try and put it out. >> [laughter] >> That was his management technique. That was it. >> The fire of chaos or the fire of creativity? >> He had seven shows in production. Either the script didn't work, they miscast a role.
1:57:21>> fire. Put out a fire. >> wasn't working. Um the second act didn't work. The you know uh some of them are small, some other are huge problems. >> Right. >> You know, so-and-so's, you know, ill. Should we shut down? You know, uh you know, do we wait a week? Do we push a week? What if we miss an air date?
1:57:38Oh my god, what if you miss an air date? The problems could be big or small, but his solution was gauging his response basically you know nothing, nothing, nothing. Oh, that's a crisis. I'll go there. >> How did that guy have time for anything in life? >> I don't know. He was a good man, though. He was really He was a generous and good man.
1:58:03I was very It was a real privilege to spend a little bit of time. >> That's amazing. >> Yeah. >> Was there ever any time ever any time when you were doing both shows simultaneously where you went I don't think I should have done this. This is too much. >> Always. >> [laughter] >> The entire time? >> Always.
1:58:22But there was a moment around the third season of Two and a Half Men, and I know I wrote about this, where I had a weird epiphany. I was sitting in a room full of comedy writers, great writers. Superstar comedy writers. And we were arguing about something. I don't remember what it was. Some scene in uh an episode that we were working on.
1:58:43And it dawned on me that um I could trust myself. And it was a really striking experience. Everybody was yelling and complaining and no lot this, do that, do that. And I just thought, I I I think I know how to do this scene. And everybody's going, "No, blah blah blah." And I went, "No, I I I think I know how to do this scene and and we're going to do it."
1:59:06Not angrily defending it, just I felt calm. You know? I felt this calmness going, "I I think this can work. Let's do this." And I also there was a moment in that calmness where I went, "If I'm wrong, we'll fix it. It's nobody's going to die. You know, we're not going to get drummed out of show business.
1:59:27It's a joke in a scene." >> Right. >> And I realized that I could be wrong and survive being wrong. >> Well, that's the benefit of being very successful, too. >> that's also but it also goes back to the I don't know thing. I don't have to know. But we did it and and it was a turning point for me, you know, where I I loved working in a room full of writers.
1:59:54But I wasn't bound by consensus anymore. I I was I was able to to have in trust intuition, which is a weird thing. It's not thinking. You know this. >> Right. >> In comedy, you just you have this feeling. It's an It's It's It's in co-ed. It's not It's not something you could express in words. You just know, I think this is going to work.
2:00:17>> And that feeling grows with the all the episodes you've got. >> Yes, and you also know when you're bullshitting yourself. >> Right. >> Yeah, this is lazy. We can do better. I know I know Yeah, this will work but it's it's not great. It's okay. And okay, why are we doing this if it's just okay? Let's Let's at least try for great.
2:00:37>> Right. >> If we fail, we tried for great. But if you fail for if you fail trying to do okay, you know, go home. Go home. It's you know, you're you're done. So, you know, that's about shoot for the moon, settle for a low orbit. >> That's a great message. I think it's a good way to wrap this up. Um thank you.
2:01:00I really appreciate it. It was fun. >> I'm stunned. I thought for sure I maybe I could talk to you for 20 minutes and I'm going to go running screaming out of the room going this >> I know you're saying that at the beginning I'm you're going to be fine. >> Well, you're a delight to talk to. >> Thank you very much, too.
2:01:15[clears throat] >> Thank you very much. >> really enjoyed it. >> I get it. I I get I get it. You you you have you have as you I'm sure you well know, you know, you have a an aura about you. A myth, a mythos. >> Mhm. >> And >> What's the myth? >> You're powerful. You're powerful man. And uh and what you've achieved is it's it's remarkable.
2:01:42>> Oh, thank you. >> You know, as we say in the comic book world, use your powers for good. >> It's all an illusion. It's just >> [laughter] >> It's just me talking for years. >> [gasps] >> But I appreciate it. Thank you. >> hours are are are clear. >> Well, thank you very much. Um you're awesome. Your book's great and this was a lot of fun.
2:02:01Thank you very much. All right, bye everybody.
2:02:10>> [music]
2:02:15[music]
More The Joe Rogan Experience transcripts
- Joe Rogan Experience #2570 - Mystery Boys
- JRE MMA Show #187 with Robert Whittaker
- Joe Rogan Experience #2569 - Bill Thompson
- Joe Rogan Experience #2568 - Ross Edgley
- Joe Rogan Experience #2567 - Mariana van Zeller
- Joe Rogan Experience #2566 - Cody Tucker
The transcript comes from the captions YouTube has for this video, and the summary is written by AI, so both can contain mistakes. Creators can ask us to remove a transcript on the contact page.
← Transcribe another video