In short · Summary by AI
David Grusch, a former intelligence officer and whistleblower, discusses his claims about a US government crash-retrieval program for unidentified aerial phenomena, alleged non-human biological remains, and a criminal enterprise he says he uncovered. He argues that Trump should release the UAP information before leaving office, but he offers no independently verified evidence in the conversation and says much of his information is classified or unverifiable by him.
- Grusch says he was hired by Rep. Tim Burchett's office as a professional staff member after testifying to Congress as a whistleblower, and he recently left that role to take a break.
- He describes a $40 million gold bar case involving a former CIA officer who allegedly created a fake continuity-of-government program, which Grusch presents as an example of wider misuse of national security funds.
- Grusch alleges he uncovered a criminal enterprise run out of a federal agency involving serious crimes under national security cover, and says he was threatened and that a plan to harm him was reportedly halted.
- He claims the government has recovered craft and intact or semi-intact vehicles, along with biological remains that he says he saw in video footage from a retrieval operation, though he gives few verifiable details.
- Grusch discusses the 2004 hypothetical disclosure study, the 1971 accident measures agreement communication channels with the USSR, and his view that Trump may release UAP information before his term ends.
- He speculates about possible explanations for the phenomena, including plasma-based life and biological engineering, and warns that AI could expose the information through third-party channels.
- The conversation ranges into historical claims about Egyptian underground structures, elongated skulls in Peru, and ancient texts, which Grusch presents as possible evidence that his views fit a broader pattern.
Intro and Grusch's background
0:01Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. >> The Joe Rogan Experience. >> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY NIGHT. All day. >> All right, bro. David, what's up? >> Thanks for having me back on. Yeah, >> my pleasure. >> Yeah. >> Well, you're the one that's closest to the flame, so tell me what's going on. >> Oh, I know, right?
0:20So, uh, living a nightmare is what I tell my friends. So, it's definitely um been a tough several years or so. And uh you know last time we were on uh just testified in front of Congress and uh the UAP Disclosure Act of 23 was you know possibly getting passed. It failed to get passed and then I um based on you know things I know about the Biden administration, things I heard from the White House, I decided to kind of lay low for a year.
0:46So 24 I didn't do too much. And then uh Representative Burlson had this crazy idea to to hire me as a professional staff member for Congress working for him. Uh turns out I guess I was like the first guy that ever testified in front of Congress as a whistleblower and then being subsequently hired by Congress.
1:04Um I was the first guy to ever do that which is very interesting and very cool. And I I do thank Burlson for um you know his leadership on that. And so I did that for about a year and a half. um just finished up actually. I was like, you know what? I'm staying longer than I thought. You know, I'm going to wait until Labor Day, see where things are.
1:23I worked pretty hard over uh uh summer recess in August and and decided uh to, you know, wind down some of my activities because I accomplished a lot of my objectives. We can get into that obviously and then uh kind of move into I'll call it my next phase of operations, which includes a little break for me.
1:42Um it's been very tiring. I've been kind of, you know, going full throttle for the last couple years and whatnot. And so we're really at a, I think, a poignant moment in US history with what Trump's done and the things you've seen in the media and whatnot. And there's a lot of other stuff happening behind the scenes because, you know, a lot of my work has been private behind the scenes, you know, working for Congress, specifically Representative Burlson.
Congressional allies and resistance
2:07>> So, let me ask you the environment. So, are there some people in Congress that are interested in disclosure of this stuff and pursue you and want to find out information and want you to tell them what what's going on and and then are there other people that are resisting this? Yeah, I think there's a big bifurcation of the non-believers and then kind of the UAP caucus.
2:27Although you see more and more people kind of signing on to the cause like I did a presser back in June in front of the capital with members and we even had Brigider General retired uh representative Scott Perry there who was on the House Intelligence Committee from my home state of PA and it was good to see other members, you know, start showing that they support the cause.
2:46But it has been challenging behind the scenes and I had many skiff classified meetings with the members kind of going over the topological history of this topic and and some of the deeper darker kind of you know criminal stuff I bumped into and how I worked with DOJ to kind of highlight some of that stuff and that's what >> kind of criminal stuff.
3:08>> Yeah. So, [sighs] uh, when I was, um, looking into this, and I have to be very respectful of, uh, my participation in this because it's an ongoing thing with DOJ. Um, I was, you know, following the money, bumping into other activities. Um, very much like, actually, it's sort of related. And if you saw in the news that David Rush, very similar name to me, it's kind of uh, freaky, uh, but he was arrested with $40 million of gold bars.
Gold bars and criminal allegations
3:34He was a CIA officer. where he made a fake uh continuity of government special access program and you know he went under the radar basically um doing his own thing and getting gold and Rolexes and stuff and the FBI raided his house back in May. True true story. Yeah, the guy has a >> is that gold bars?
3:51>> He has he had $40 million of gold bars. >> Where did he get the gold bars >> from the agency? >> They have them laying around. >> Yeah. I can't get into all the details of why the government >> Hold on. The government has gold bars. >> Yeah. And this guy just snatched him. >> Yeah. He made I don't know all the details, but he made a fake continuity of government special access program that nobody was briefed into.
4:12He like, you know, papered it and uh nobody at the CIA questioned what he was doing. And he was like, "Well, I need, you know, 40 million in gold bars because of the special continuity of government activity." >> Wait, wait, wait. So that's how they fund some things in gold bars. It's almost like uh in Afghanistan when I was over there, I'd have guys with briefcases full of $100,000 in cash cuz you have to pay for things, right?
4:37>> So, >> but that kind of makes more sense to me than lugging around gold. >> Yeah. >> What does like 40 million in gold bars look like? >> Uh I saw the seizure photos. It's a lot. I mean, it's really >> Can I see what that looks like? >> It's approximately 303 gold bars that each weigh approximately 1 kilogram a piece.
4:54>> Yo, that's a lot of weight. Yeah, I was looking for a picture. There's only like AI photos [snorts] of it >> at least [clears throat] that I could find. >> So, a kilogram is 1.2.2 lb. >> Yeah. 2.28 or something. >> That's crazy. >> 600. >> He's got 600 lb of gold. >> Yeah. >> Where the do you put?
5:08So, he just had it in his house. >> He did have it at his house and he laying around. >> Bunch of Rolexes and all that. And >> Oh, so he was just going crazy. >> Yeah. Well, who knows what he was really going to use the gold for, but that that's an open-ended thing. And he was he was pretending that he was using it for some disclosure type deal or did it have anything to do with UAPs?
5:29>> Uh not that I'm aware of, but that same ecosystem I bumped into. So his fabricated program was a continuity government program. So that's like, you know, if something bad happens, >> people are going to a hideout site, you know, sanitized location, >> right? >> And so what I bumped into unfortunately was like the deep underbelly of the federal government.
5:49We can get into it. It's it's a lot of stuff I've never talked about because it's just very terrifying and I you know I've been through a lot of a lot of crazy and I ended up bumping into a criminal enterprise uh run out of a particular agency and um it was basically um getting money through certain criminal endeavors the most unspeakable type of criminal endeavors under the cover of uh certain national security programs.
6:18That's about as >> When you say certain unspeakable >> Yeah. >> You mean like what do you mean like trafficking? >> Yeah. >> Like child trafficking. So the government was involved in child trafficking for money. >> Officers of the government. That's true. Yeah. It's it's up. I uh I briefed members in a classified setting all the details.
6:41Um, and I I'm highlighting that because this is how serious this issue is is there's an ecosystem and there's a lot of good people are on these programs in terms of the the UAP side. Yeah. And I know a lot of them. They're friends of mine. They're patriotic people doing their duty, but there is like a small little cast system of characters um that are part of this larger ecosystem of uh no holds barred.
7:06we're going to do what we want and you know we're going to do whatever kind of criminal activity to get a washed money uh for our cutouts like so a good example of course would be Iran Contra right which is very famous 86 and the CIA was engaged in those kind of activities and this has all been exposed all over north and all that to fund the contras weapons purchases procurement etc and a lot of that you know seemed to uh possibly be drug trafficking the government never confirmed that but you look at Barry
7:34Seal and and his um uh statements in the 80s and 90s and and it's likely that that um probably [clears throat] occurred, you know. >> Yeah. It was all through Freeway Ricky Ross. >> Yeah, that's right. >> Yeah. Ricky's been on the podcast multiple times. >> That's right. That's right. >> Yeah. He was on what is it like two years ago, year and a half ago.
7:52Last time he was on. Um >> it's funny cuz he's out now. Uh became an attorney while I was in jail. Found out learned to read first. Okay. Couldn't read. became an attorney in jail, found out that they tried him. You know that triple jeopardy, three strikes thing. >> Yeah. >> They tried him incorrectly.
8:11They used that incorrectly because it's supposed to be three different times you were arrested instead of like three crimes that were attached to one arrest. So, he gets out of jail. Now, he sells legal weed. [laughter] >> All right. All right. >> Lovely guy. But he he's a great guy, but he had no idea that he was selling cocaine to fund the Contra versus the Sandinistas.
8:33>> Interesting. He had no idea. He thought that he was just a a slick character that just knew what he was doing and was, you know, he didn't realize that the CIA was literally allowing him to do it. Then we've also had Michael Roupert on the podcast. You know who he is? >> No. >> Michael Roupert was the LA narcotics officer that on uh I believe it was on C-SPAN.
8:51He went on C-SPAN during a hearing and he exposed the entire or organization selling drugs in South Central Los Angeles because he was involved in it. He was involved in like busting people that were doing it and then they told him he has to leave it alone because it was the CIA. >> Yeah. Yeah. And so when I bumped into that stuff, you know, I immediately worked at Department of Justice.
9:17>> That's one level, but like child trafficking is another level. >> I know, man. It's it's really up and and there's a lot of details that are I have a lot more questions than answers and and I you know I worked with the OJ and you know from what I understand uh I got a gold star in a brief to Cash Patel about it last year.
9:34I wasn't in the briefing, but I, you know, I I was told I got kudos, but it was very disturbing. And so, like, obviously, a lot of these programs are legal in the sense that there's in terms of UAP stuff, there's, you know, classified executive orders back in the day that covers them and >> and they're upstanding citizens and we could we could litigate like, you know, uh, Congress wasn't necessarily brought into the fold enough from an oversight perspective, etc.
Oversight failures and threats
10:01But, you know, the core of the program, you know, does have uh a legal beginning, but when you don't have oversight, unfortunately, certain small pockets of people start doing that they shouldn't have. And I and unfortunately, >> I got deeply ins snared in that. There was a very small group of people that uh, you know, pushed me over the edge and I had to do what I got to do to to you know, protect myself.
10:26And I never wanted to be a whistleblower. You know, I was a deeply entrenched, you know, 15-year intel officer, military officer in the Air Force. You know, I was working some of the country's most sensitive issues. You know, started going to the White House to brief the National Security Council in my mid20s on space issues back during the Obama administration.
10:43And and in 2019 when I joined the UAP task force and I was tasked to investigate this, I was like, "Sure, I'll look into it." you know, the special access program or black program community has a lot of dysfunction and and maybe some stuff wasn't reported, you know, you know, correctly and and I didn't know really what I was going to find, but if there was a US program, you know, I'd figure it out.
11:05I'd probably get cleared to it and we'd be fine. We'd have like a mafia meeting and and uh you know that and I know why it was protected the way it is and whatnot. But unfortunately about a year and a half about October 2020 is when kind of my life changed and particular individuals instead of coming to me who knew me by the way personally I know I know them personally now Dave you're bumping into something you know I'm going to defensively brief you this is what it is or hey I'm going to slide
Retaliation and the Senate meeting
11:39an NDA sign this and I'll read you in and my colleagues and I joked about that like we're bumping in the eventually somebody's going to knock on my door in my office and be like, "Hey, I need to talk to you." And unfortunately, that never happens. Um, it's really tragic because that would have been an easier way.
11:55But, um, I immediately got administratively nuked in October 2020 and basically they went after everybody around me. Uh my boss at the National Reconnaissance Office as you know Major Gush the Air Force officer in the reserves got walked out of NRO headquarters in Chantelli, Virginia under fabricated uh personal conduct things and and they went after, you know, my chief of staff who worked for me at NGA when I was a 15 and and co-workers, people they thought were my enablers, right?
12:28And um and I thought, okay, I could fight this. They're bringing up like my mental health stuff, which we've talked about before, Afghanistan PTSD. I'm like, I reported it. I was cleared of, you know, no problems. Kept my top secret clearance, and I still have my top secret clearance, but it got very, very um scary in early 2022.
12:53And I've avoided talking about this for a long time. And I've mentioned in my hearing in 2023, you know, I was, you know, I'm I'm here in fear for my life, etc. Well, you know, I'm not talking about the criminal stuff. I found stuff that's happened in my personal life and stuff. And so, back in early 2022, um everything's fine.
13:14Uh started uh noticing some suspicious activity um near where I live and I didn't think much of it. Thought it was kind of strange. And I don't want to quite go into all the details, but basically um later one particular day uh I was sent a message that they can touch me and my wife and they they're they know where we are and they >> and [snorts] what do you think this was particular?
13:43Was this because of the child trafficking stuff? Was this because of some other illegal activity with no oversight? you know, in private environments, I was asked what what red line, what trip wire did I cross? To this day, I don't know specifically. I suspect uh based on them, what turns out they were monitoring my classified computer at work, uh my re my investigation notes that I would keep encrypted on there.
14:15I think they were very worried that I figured out a lot of things. And I I still don't know for sure though, like and it and there's a lot of other things too. I guess I'm kind of jumping around because um in early 2021, you know, certain people that were helping me and I was talking to started to experience uh Havana syndrome symptoms, you know, anomalous health incidents.
14:39And I know a lot about that. That's another kind of ecosystem I was an expert in in the government. And of course, my first thing is like, huh? Uh, did you piss off the Russians or Chinese or some other kind of foreign intelligence service or because you don't think domestic. And I'm like, what did you do in your career?
14:54Were you on covert action programs? Did you like, you know, bomb some, you know, adversaries building and they're pissed off at you and they hold a grudge? And so I noticed that I wasn't going to equate that to the topic. And uh but I I was very nervous about that because people I know uh were starting to experience those symptoms specifically uh microwave directed energy most likely just based on um certain tradecraftraft they were doing to detect it which I won't get into the
15:25details of that and then the their symptomology so to speak and uh so that was frightening and in in that 2021 time frame I was sitting at home I was getting you know investigated ated by three agencies and um I really didn't know what was going on. A lot of my colleagues were kind of continuing on that investigation on on on my behalf and eventually in late 2021 NGA hired me as a 15 off the street.
15:50Kind of came back into government full-time. I was hoping um that agency would protect me against uh you know the CIA and the NRO and and certain elements of the DoD that were going after me because of these couple antagonists that were trying to you know basically um push me over the edge administratively.
16:10But what what I crossed the Rubicon in early 2022 when I was sent a message and it was this the same day I was sent a message other people got that message too. So it was coordinated geographically and of course you know I reported that to federal law enforcement count intelligence element and at the time I'm like well you know there was a one adversarial intelligence agency that had an interest in me several years ago and I had a little incident that was actually kind of funny.
16:37Um so I wasn't sure if it was like the US government or even if it was related um to the my investigation. And then several several uh weeks later and I was I get chills talking about this cuz it's it's kind of upsetting. Um I was uh in DC um for a conference on UAP actually uh for my for my agency NGA at the time and I got summoned to an offbooks uh Senate Intel committee uh we'll call it meeting in their you know their skiff right their their vault where you can talk classified information and certain
Disclosure timing and Trump
17:19individuals were there known to me um great credentials people I've known for a while uh in my line of work and so was you know a dozen dozen and a half uh senior staff for Marco Rubio Mark Wernern you know etc right and in that meeting uh we you know we talked about the legacy program the history many hours and I'm going to fly on the wall like this is really for Senate staff I'm just kind of sitting in the back and you know they turned to staff and they you know they pointed at me and
17:51they're like um oh by the way you know the these couple individuals and they and they named the individuals. I'm like, I know who they are. Um uh they uh wanted to kill you and um I know Lu Alazand talked about it, but why? >> I do not know that for sure. I think well so um be careful what I say. Uh there are certain presidential findings that allow certain things to protect critical things in the government.
18:21And my assessment is I was getting so close to exposing it because I was sort of preparing my inspector general's uh report to the IG that um I must have crossed some sort of Rubicon. I still would like to know and I hope these people are you know uh brought to justice and that's you know my wish and dream and hopefully Department of Justice does what's needed.
18:47But >> there's an investigation ongoing right now. >> Yes. on that. And that's all I'll say defensively not to interfere with that. A good day starts with a solid morning routine. So if something's missing, if your body isn't getting what it needs, everything can feel off. AG1 is designed to help fill the holes.
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19:41Get more from your morning routine. Add either AG1 NextG or AG1 Pro and your body will thank you. Go to drinkagg1.com/joen. And for a limited time, save 20% on your first subscription order of AG1 NextGen or AG1 Pro. That's drinkagg.com/jo. >> Okay. How much of this do you think has to do with actual UAP disclosure and how much of it has to do with a lack of oversight that allowed people to do illegal activities?
20:16I think some problem children decided to abuse some standing options to protect, you know, critical infrastructure in the United States, which, you know, for example, that would be like a Air Force flight line, a ICBM silo, um, other activities. And they decided, um, I was some sort of threat. And it's it's so disgusting because I you know like I said I was a fieldgrade officer in the air force.
20:46I was a you know GS15 a CIA colon equivalent civilian and I'm sitting there in Senate chambers and I'm hearing this and I won't get into all the details. in it a lot. I heard like you know all the details on that and I don't want to like um burn my sources and and I just remember how upset the Senate staff was and to the point where you know a particular staffer um who's very senior went to his office and got some whiskey and you know all of them started drinking in the skiff because it's like
21:13everybody was afraid like are they serious? or like they literally were thinking about killing Dave and like and and and I found out that there was a kibash to that. It's a longer story for someday if I could ever, you know, discuss the whole the whole history. And >> so it was considered but then it was kibos.
21:30>> Yes. Thank God. And I know how it was stopped and I I owe some people a debt of gratitude literally. And um and this was just a few weeks after, you know, I was sent a message and and even after the meeting um we were finding stuff and other people were finding stuff um to let people know that they're being tracked.
21:54And I know this sounds like so crazy and all that, but >> Well, so does someone having $40 million in gold hanging out their house and a bunch of Rolexes. Never did I think, you know, I'm a very patriotic guy. I love serving America. You know, it hurts me every day not having the uniform anymore. And knowing that was the level that they thought about going to because of this interesting interpretation of certain standing options.
22:23And I and eventually in this disclosure process, a lot of that will come out. I just have to be careful what I say now until, you know, the the president figures out how to, you know, release some of this history, unfortunately. So, >> understood. Yeah. So, one of the things that we talked about before, so you were scheduled for another podcast a while back, but flights got cancelled when we moved it today, but you were saying that it's actually fortuitous that it was rescheduled.
22:51>> Yeah. A lot of things are happening. I see the administration getting really really serious on this and I think people don't appreciate the courage that Trump is is is showing right now uh ordering the government to release everything we know about this topic. It'll be >> courage how so like you think he's in danger from releasing this information?
23:12>> Not necessarily, but it's it's um the ontological shock and the history coming out and sort of the outrage. I mean, I think it'll be uniting sort of like in post 911 America after the towers fell, right? You have the the fear of dirty bombs and other terrorist attacks, but you also have this like uniting uh panacea that kind of brings people.
23:34>> You think that is equivalent to what's happening right now? >> It will be and I think >> going to happen. >> So, I believe uh before Trump Trump's term ends that it's all going to come out. What does that mean? >> Everything I've testified about, you know, the fact that, you know, we've been studying this for a while.
23:55We've recovered material aka intact semi-intact craft. We've, you know, recovered this anomalous intelligence piloting the craft. And, you know, we are reverse engineering that. And obviously, there's other parts to that. It's very complicated ecosystem. A lot of people who are just release it all, show us Indiana Jones warehouse tour don't appreciate the care that we're going to have to um proceed with because this is not a static ecosystem.
24:24This isn't just like archaeology where you're digging up stuff. There is you are dealing with you know third parties both human you know adversarial countries etc. they have their own program. Then you have, you know, our this anomalous intelligence, our visitors, NHI, whatever you want to call them, ultraterrestrial, depending on which taxonomy in the tree that you want to um ascribe some of this origin to.
24:47And and of course, you know, the the national security related technology that has been derived, we've derived great stuff to defend America. I've had exposure on that and you know, I'm very >> re it through back engineering. >> Yeah. >> 100%. >> Yes. Well, some of it it it was inspiration. It wasn't a a onetoone like we we we unlocked the iPhone.
25:11It was like, "Huh, that's an interesting material. Look at that um frequency selective surface property. You know what? We could use that for an aerospace application or whatever." And so, a lot of it was garnered via inspiration, not one to one. Yeah. In some cases, I suppose we did, but like that's been most of it.
25:32Yeah. So what's the holdup in terms of disclosure? >> I necessarily can't read the president's mind. Uh there's certainly a uh multilateral kind of diplomatic issue. I mean so we're in this this issue now where once we cross the Rubicon then we affect allies and adversaries. You know our adversaries have programs.
25:53What are they going to tell their citizenry? You have uh possible theological distress Vatican etc. And I'm, you know, I'm a Catholic and I I certainly appreciate uh the Vatican's long study on this subject and they just stayed quiet on what they know. And so it's there's a lot of like collateral effects if you're not careful with certain stuff.
26:13you you can you know trigger a response and there is great fear that uh I don't necessarily believe in this but like there has been assessments in the past that you know revealing certain things may you know trigger a response from a third party >> trigger a response from them from these >> possibly entities yes and that is a >> that has been written up uh government think tanks wrote that up in reports to previous presidents >> so the the the theory is that we disclosed people are now aware of it all over the
26:48globe and they decide to show themselves. >> Yeah. I mean, I think there's a real fear of like a Ghostbusters moment, I'll say. And Oh, boy. You know, and it's one of those things where I I'm trying to walk the line and be as diplomatic as possible and also trying to prepare the populace at the same time because clearly the government hasn't right now.
27:13And I mean, Trump wants it out for sure. His team needs to be astute enough to know what to ask for. Uh, you know, massage the deep state and and get that information because we just saw Tim Bchett on Benny Johnson's podcast talk about uh Steven Miller called him and was like, "Hey, I'm getting blocked like physically blocked from access to a lot of this stuff."
27:35And, you know, that's very concerning. I I would say Steven Miller is an alpha dog. He's a pitbull. And as a fellow alpha, I do appreciate his >> That's a silly thing to say. You know that, right? >> What? >> A fellow alpha. >> Fellow alpha. [laughter] >> Opens yourself up to like tremendous amounts of ridicule.
27:53>> Yeah, I know. I know. I mean, nobody's perfect and I know everybody has their faults, but I do appreciate >> the ferveny. he is attacking the issue behind the scenes and I just I think he needs guided the right way and informed and and kind of how how to cut this deal. You know, like >> I met him very briefly at the UFC event at the White House and he told me that it's going to come out.
28:14I'm like, okay, >> that's good. Well, there you go. >> It was really quick. >> Yeah. >> Was like he's like, I'm just I know you're interested in this. This is literally all we talked about. >> The UFO thing is going to come out. >> Yeah. >> Like, okay, when when's that coming out? Let's go. >> Exactly.
28:27and and and and Trump understands the subject pretty good and you know he's in the know and he understands some of the implications. So I like I said he has a lot of courage because this is likely going to change society in a big way. I can't necess I'm not like a social anthropologist or a psychiatrist like I can't necessarily predict in what specific ways it might reduce you know feudal nation state peer competition and other things.
28:51Uh, but it is going to change and I and I think when people look back at this interview, it's gonna be very haunting because I think in short order, you know, before Trump leaves office, we're going to be in a new paradigm. And I'm normally a very pessimistic, cynical person. A lot of my friends know that.
29:07But I I have great confidence that the president is doing the right thing. And I I I feel um there's eventually going to there the people that are in charge of this are going to have to comply with the the president's order. And uh but there's a right way of of doing this, I think. And I, like I said, I'm not some sick of fan for the deep state.
29:27I'm a whistleblower, obviously. And you know, I have um philosophical differences about how this was kept and how they could possibly reveal stuff. But I I am surprisingly confident, which is which is kind of weird for me to say because I just see the tea leaves. I know Miller's serious. Um there's other people in government serious.
29:47I mean, even see Aaron Lucas, the PDDNI, the deputy director of national intelligence, you know, sign these big NDA waiverss. It includes like any kind of waiver of not even telling the president, sorry, you have to tell us kind of thing. And and so you you're seeing kind of the the chess board being set.
30:02I know everybody's not happy with the tranches coming out with the lowhanging fruit videos and and recordings and stuff. And Representative Burlson and I before I left his office recently got um a 1952 recording that was still classified from Blue Book talking about the seriousness of this issue and all the crazy that they're seeing near nuclear sites and test ranges, which is interesting because in in uh that video that's been declassified, it mentions the very sites that in modern day have that same
30:32anomalous activity to include stuff in the Southwest. So I can't say where it's in the ecosystem in the open source, but the the executive branch hasn't acknowledged what specific test and training range. They're seeing crazy orbs that they can't explain this acost helicopters and and all that. So >> um so is Trump experiencing resistance in your opinion?
30:55>> Yes. Um, and I don't know all the details, but uh, clearly clearly Miller has, and a lot of it is, I think, and I can't read the mind of the deep state, but as a former deep stater, uh, I would say that there's always been this kind of disdain for political appointees and they don't and members of Congress, like they don't they don't have the reverence on this issue.
31:16They're going to it up. They're going to, you know, say something that they shouldn't have about a classified program. And um that's why some classified programs are kept from Congress. It's called waved programs. Um and uh the only presidents that were really really involved were the ones like HW Bush, right?
31:34He was CI director. He was fully briefed on this issue. A lot of that lore is true about HW Bush. Cheney, like I've talked about, fully in this. He was the mob boss for many years. He was kind of the head of this activity. And so I think there's some um testing of the waters right now. It's kind of like cat's paw dynamic, like you know, we'll give you a little bit of this, a little bit of that, and they're they're seeing how the administration is going to potentially roll this out.
32:00And and obviously if the White House wants my opinion, I'm available. But um I do trust the president's team hopefully will be able to handle this. And because I if Trump doesn't enforce his order and see this through, I don't think any other president is going to be able. I mean I mean regardless of Democrat, left, right, whatever, like if he follows through on this, he's going to be the goat.
32:24He's going to be a legend. And you know, all the other things people have problems with in his presidency, Iran, whatever, I think this will um wipe those out. and this is like really important for his legacy to initiate the process before the 28 election. Then there's like a hot handoff to the next um administration.
32:44And you know, if Trump's a political animal, he could easily line up a Republican team on the 28 ticket to basically, you know, be his continuity on this, too. I think that'd be very smart. And >> so this is going to take a long time to release. Is that how you're >> projecting this? >> That was always the plan back in the day.
33:02I just because it's like an anestization and climatization process. It's like, you know, okay, we're gonna focus on this topic. Everybody's this is going to get normalized. The temperature is going to cool and then we're going to bring in this shocking thing. >> So, there's a there's a schedule like in terms of like the psychological impact on the populace.
33:21>> There was in the past in terms of certain um government think tanks wrote classified assessments for uh previous presidents on this. I don't know what the current plan is. I'm just uh I'm currently literally a private citizen right now. But if they're going to do what they did in the past, it is >> and the slow roll out has its pluses and minuses.
33:43Like I would say due to human factors, risks of adversarial countries getting ahead of us, other whistleblowers, whatever. You probably have to roll this out in at least like 12 months and whatnot. But we're in a precarious time if the administration doesn't start because uh China and Russia could take advantage of this moment now.
34:02Our weakness, you know, China has their famous uh belt and road initiative. Uh China has admitted publicly that they have a UAP task force. Obviously, they have more than that behind the scenes. And they actually announced that when the DoD UAP task force was announced, you can find a news article from June 2020 in the South China Morning Post where they talk about they're analyzing these encounters.
34:24They're using AI, etc. So, >> do you feel that China has or do you know if China has these crashed vehicles as well? >> There's parallel programs. >> There's parallel programs. Now, one of the things that Diana Pulka said when and and Gary Nolan refers to in the same way as well, they they refer to them as donations.
34:47>> Yeah, that's what's really interesting is I am aware of certain historical retrieval rules where they were like perfectly landed and it wasn't like a crash and what is what's going on there? I'm sure we've done a deep assessment. I never had access to that kind of information. I'm sure that we understand why that happened at some level, but that is true that that's actually happened.
35:08>> So the theory is that they want us to find these things so that we can examine the technology and perhaps work from it, >> like engineer it or like you were saying before, gain inspiration to try new >> Yeah. I mean, part of it's like throw in the gorilla banana, see if it can peel it. But also, the the more skeptical intel officer in me is like, is this a Trojan horse?
35:30Do you want us to uh figure things out and then get then get addicted to certain type of technology and then that creates a control loop uh where they start handling us whether we need raw resources to maintain a certain technology or as in this intelligence whatever this is this nonhuman intelligence >> right so if if it is a if it is a donation do you feel like this donation is evenly distributed amongst world powers.
36:03>> You know, I do not know the the the statistical distribution. That's very interesting. I I never understood the total number of retrievalss in um other countries participated in. >> Well, there's supposed to be quite a few in the United States. >> Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. That's for sure. I don't know the answer to that actually.
36:22I'm sure there's a statistical analysis that'll come out in this process. You know, >> do you think there's any shared information between these governments? Do you think they communicate? >> There is a a gentleman's agreement. Uh the the top layer of it I can talk about, and I've talked about it previously, so it's not um anything super new.
36:40If you look at the accident measures agreement of 1971, which which is the short title of this god-awfully long title treaty that was signed in September 1971, you'll see article three of the treaty talks about UAP. And hey, if you see any unidentified objects around your nuclear or critical critical comms facilities, please call us, bro.
37:01And that was between the USSR in America. And then uh in 2013, the classified annex of that treaty got declassified. You can find it online at George Washington University National Security Archives, but it gives the nuke flash like the red line like code to say it was like Adam222, Adam 333, and that's all declassified.
37:20and he would send that to the the Kremlin like hey uh we see weird around uh plac uh it's not us it's not a false flag and vice versa and so there was a redline comms for UAP activity between u Russia and the US and of course Russia and US during the Cold War had a mutual notification treaty for space launch vehicle and ICBM launches etc.
37:43Weirdly enough, we've never had that with China. Even to this day, we don't have a mutual, this is crazy. We don't have a mutual notification. If they're going to do like a a sub submarine launched ballistic missile test out of, you know, off their coast, they're not obligated by treaty to tell us. So, and sometimes they don't with certain national security activities.
38:07and and so uh Northern Command, NORAD, Missile Warning Center, other other places, uh NSA, DefMAC and Laurel, Maryland have to be on their agame to like make sure it was like a test because the Chinese aren't obligated to tell us. And I um a crazy story in that regard. The Indians did something like that to us.
38:28I was on duty in the NRO operations center. And by the way, I got this clear through security, so you know, NRO, don't shank me. Um uh basically there was an unexpected Indian uh missile test that hit one of their satellites in 2019. I think it was like March of 2019. >> One of our satellites. >> Oh no, not our uh one of their uh weather.
38:51Yeah. Their own defunct weather satellite and >> on purpose or an accident? >> On purpose. And >> they shot down one of their own satellites >> and they didn't tell us. I remember in my office at like all these different phones. I'm like calling the embassy all this. I'm like what the you know, and because we were worried at the NRO about the debris because we fly space, you know, spy satellites.
39:10That's the mission of the National Reconnaissance Office and I was the backup director of intelligence as a reser at the operations center where I was, you know, also handling the PDB for the director and I, you know, led the director's briefing team and, you know, I'm like going to the orbital analysts on the watch floor with all the crazy screens like calculate the the the debris field, you know, let me know if we have to maneuver something and blah blah blah.
39:33I'm like running up to the director's office in my uniform, you know, out of breath. I'm like, "Holy shit." You know, um, and it was kind of a big deal. And that's publicly, you know, you can Google that now. And, um, I remember when that went down, it was pretty crazy. So, >> that sounds completely insane.
39:49>> Yeah. >> So, are there other countries besides China, Russia, and US that supposedly have access to these vehicles? >> Yeah. >> Which other countries can you say? that I don't want to get into cuz that gets into some sensitive stuff, >> right? Um, supposedly this is like one of the best legends that there's a a craft that's so large they couldn't move it so they had to make a building around it and it's supposedly in Korea.
40:15>> A legend? >> I don't know. >> Oh, yeah. You do know. How [laughter] dare you? But if you heard you've heard that rumor, I'm sure online. >> I've heard that rumor online. Yeah. >> Yeah. You don't know anything about that? >> Yeah. We'll let the federal government. Do you have any personal experience with any of this stuff?
40:31>> You know, it's funny you asked that. I, as far as I can remember, I have no experience with the phenomenon. Like a lot of a lot of people in this, I guess, ufology or whatever you want to call it, they have that personal experience like, oh yeah, when I was a kid, I saw an orb or whatever. And >> I have zero.
40:48I've seen a couple interesting things in the sky that, you know, could have been satellite passes. I've been an amateur astronomer besides having a physics degree. I've been an amateur astronomer since like I was like in middle school like 12 13 years old and and I still have never seen anything in my personal life uh in a stupendous nature.
41:06I've never had any kind of spooky woo stuff happen >> never been visited. >> No. and and and that's why like I was open to this you know I'm a child of the 80 well I grew up at I was born in the 80s you know most of my childhood was in the 90s and you know I watched XFiles and Star Trek Next Gen and of course I'm like you know I'm a precocious teen reading like brief history time and you know Isaac Azimov and I'm learning about the Draco equation I'm like there's probably life but who knows and I'm I'm
41:35open to it and then you know when I got in into the intelligence community that's like the first thing I looked up like on the I'm like on the computer. I'm like I go on to a certain database. I'm like type it in Area 51, you know, UFOs. Like everybody's done that who's who's gone through intel school whether they admit it or not.
41:50And of course, I didn't see anything or anything. >> Um the only thing I bumped into early in my career in like 2009, I remember reading the OSAP uh the Defense Intelligence reference documents, the DIDs, and at the time I had no idea what they were doing. And turns out it was obviously UAP related, but I was reading why why is the DIA looking into magneto hydrodnamic propulsion and uh cloaking and all all this other stuff.
42:16And of course I find out later what it was, but I had absolutely no uh personal experience and even professionally uh for most of my career. Now I found out behind the scenes later like, "Oh, you remember that top secret program you're working on, Dave? you were actually uh looking for UAP and you didn't know it.
42:36I'm like what? And and of course, you know, I find out and I learn about, you know, how they hid all this infrastructure and they used a lot of conventional national security intelligence collection architecture to basically facilitate this crash retrieval program, which makes sense because they're not going to reinvent the wheel and, you know, totally have a separate infrastructure to use to like figure out if stuff crashed, activity, etc., right?
43:01And um you know early I would say about 10 years into my career I remember some imagery analysts saying hey Dave you know like uh they told us to airbrush some stuff out of photos and stuff and it was round and I'm like okay dude well maybe that's something you're not clear to or whatever. And I do remember that and I had some suspicious recruitment earlier in my career too.
43:26I was on some really sensitive stuff that I ended up finding out it was um directly adjacent to the program and I went through this whole like smoking man recruitment thing for a year and you know was told I was going to get these kind of bizarre accesses and I'm like what are you talking about and ultimately I was never recruited and I kind of just like put filed that in the back of my brain for years but like I've said uh you know before it wasn't until like spring of 2017 I was at the CIA
43:55briefing um the deputy director staff on a bunch of DoD classified programs and the chief of um a very sensitive office at the agency pulled me aside and was like, "Dave, what what do you know about UFOs? Like uh I hear there's like a program at the Pentagon and all that." And and and I'm like, "I don't know."
44:14Like I'm briefed almost every DoD program at the time by the way and hundreds of of of programs in the intelligence community because I was in a position of very high trust and I you know I'm very patriotic and I'm very humbled that I was in a position like that in my 30s and and I didn't think anything of it until until this this subject got more popularized people went public you know Tom Dong TTSA and all that and and and then I was professionally interested but not really
44:40working on it in 2018 and then early in 19 is when I got brought on as the NRO rep to the the then Navy task force which became the DoD's, you know, UAP task force. That's kind of my origin story. And and so I was always I'm always been curious, but I never saw evidence and I never had any personal experience with the phenomenon that kind of kind of colors my uh judgment on this, I guess.
45:03So, >> so I'm sure you're aware of how put off when he was uh tasked by the Bush administration along with a bunch of other thinkers to try to come up with pros and cons for disclosure. >> Yeah, I knew some other people in that meeting and I verified that meeting took place and even even Arrow admitted in their volume one report which was horrible.
45:24Well, that's a long story. Painful. Uh, that it it took place, but it was just a hypothetical scenario at a a fedally funded research and development center in Northern Virginia. >> What year was this? >> 2004. It was like November of 2004. And it's like, but why was it hypothetical if it's not real?
45:42[laughter] Nobody explains that. And obviously the story is, you know, Steve Hadley, who was the national security adviser, uh, sponsored it. You know, I I believe Hadley denies it, but you know, who knows if Steve would uh you know, tell the truth on that just because of the sensitivity. So, >> and so for people that don't know what happened, supposedly they brought in a bunch of different thought leaders and they gave them uh a pro and a con side, like what would be negatively affected
46:09by disclosure, what would be positively affected by disclosure, and attached a numerical value to each group. >> Correct. They had like a computer system there that like tabulated everything from what I know talking to other attendees >> and virtually every one of them had more negative than positive and so the decision was made to not disclose.
46:29>> Well, yeah. And in the main decision, if I remember correctly was the federal contracts fraud. Well, that could be debated in, you know, the Supreme Court. But uh they realized a lot of and so this is another issue of disclosure besides the onlogical thought shock and people can't handling it and like >> misappropriation of funds.
46:47>> Yeah. And misappropriation of funds and all that. It's oh so these set of contractors got sole source contracts and exclusive access to this for internal research and development where they figure out something then sell it back to the government etc. for all these decades. What about my mid-level small business and my contractor and blah blah blah.
47:06And so you're going to they were afraid that you would see legal challenges going to the Supreme Court in violation of what they call the DEFARS, right? The defense federal acquisition regulations, >> right? >> And the the government would be liable for who knows billions of dollars worth of monies that they spent on this to these contractor partners that got in back in the day and like, well, we're not exposing any more people.
47:31We're locking it down. and what they call a JNA, justification and approval for a soul source contract. This is a reason national security like we can't expose any more people to this. And of course that also causes a brain drain and group think and and actually hurts the defense uh industrial base. But that was the main reason.
47:48It wasn't oh uh you know upcoming millennials that are turning 18 can't handle it. It was like yeah we're we're kind of culpable and kind of a up contractual relationship. And and that's going to be something that the the Trump administration is going to have to deal with. It's like, well, how do I reorient the defense and industrial base?
48:06I mean, this could trigger a golden era of innovation in America. More people get to play. You overtly can take the basic information that's not sensitive um and put it into academia, right? So, you have undergraduate, graduate, post-doal programs, and you actually create this like more educated workforce to actually benefit national security.
48:26But, and and China doesn't have this issue. They're they're pulling people from pick a university in China, Nanjing, whatever university, and they're sucking them into these programs and but in America, we don't have that kind of permissive totalitarian environment. So, >> well, in China, they probably don't have the issue with misappropriation of funds and lying to Congress.
48:47>> No, CCP, baby. You know, do whatever you want. >> They do whatever they want. So, they don't have to worry about liability. So, this is one of the things that came up in that film, Age of Disclosure, is that you're going to have to make some sort of a amnesty program. >> Yeah. And I'm I am for that as long it's like use immunity for specific uh testimony or >> as long as it doesn't cover like this other you're talking about.
49:12>> Like my and of course I know who's watching people clearly that are from this ecosystem. Um, you know, I would, you know, expect that like everybody's been basically good Americans. There's a small cast of characters that have done unspeakable things. I mean, how they wanted to kill me. This is like it's disturbing and and you wonder why I had to become a whistleblower.
49:31I didn't want to do this but like I was pushed over the edge uh to do that, you know? I digress. But like besides like bluecollar really up criminal shits, which you know, once again, there is a judicial justice process in America, you know, we're not going to do street justice here. We will, you know, take care of that professionally.
49:51Um, like I took care of the other criminal stuff I found out professionally. I'm like, look, I'm, you know, and and and when I was doing that, I mean, I was meeting people body armor armed with colleagues of mine that were, you know, rolling heavy, too. And like it was a very serious part of my investigation.
50:10But yeah, I I believe in amnesty, but I I think we need to do it like a truth and reconciliation commission, which was in post-apartid South Africa in the 90s where you had um you know, some white farmer comes in, it's like, yeah, I murdered a bunch of black people or whatever, you know, and it's like, okay, thank you for telling us that.
50:25You're good. You know, don't do it again and move on. I'm I mean, I'm distilling it down, but that's essentially what the TRC in South Africa was. And I think something like that would be very additive and good because I mean I have friends that run the program. They're they're great guys. They're bros you know and gals and um they you know were signed paperwork you know it was like if you you know divulge this it's under penalty of treason you go to Levvenworth or you know capital punishment.
50:54>> And yeah >> let's break down what you know. >> Yeah >> and what you can say. >> Yeah. What are these things and what are they capable of? >> So, uh, there's like physical and non-physical, call it UAP and intelligence we're likely dealing with. So, for example, the orbs, could that be sentient plasmoid?
51:16Possibly >> sentient plasmoid. So, plasma that has consciousness. >> Yeah. in some way and that could be like you're seeing the other side of some sort of wormhole and it's some other intelligence shooting this like I'll call it like plasmoidic probe into you know our existence I mean there's this is of course a theoretical framework and once again I don't have a PhD in >> but it's theoretical that there is a life form that is a plasmabased life form >> and there's already papers on the open
51:44internet about this a couple years ago what's the title of the the paper they wrote about this possibility so this is a um academic assessment of a possibility of the orbs. Now, could the orbs actually be physical craft, but they have a sheath of plasma around it? Interestingly enough, [snorts] and OAP did a defense intelligence reference document on magneto hydrodnamic propulsion, um which if you remember the the movie The Hunt for Red October, >> that's the Caterpillar Drive on the
52:16Russian submarine, you know, back in the day. Uh and of course uh with MHD you can also do it you have to use a conductive fluid um either salt seawater that has salt in it or uh you could do it in the air but you have to create a plasma and you steer the plasma with it's called the lorren force it's it's basically have a perpendicular magnetic field large amount electricity and you can basically through the lorren force which is like ionic propulsion sort of um uh control it in the in the
52:46atmosphere as well and you can you know read papers on that and I e and and other stuff like that and so one of the byproducts of an air breathing MHD system is plasma around it. So depending on the size of the orb um it is conceivable that there's a physical craft behind it as well just by as an artifact of the propulsion system.
53:06Uh once again that's a a theory. I'm sure the program knows and that will be communicated at a later date but like you know that's Yeah. >> So this theory about sentient plasma >> Yeah. >> is it the idea that we have a very narrow-minded view of what life can be >> and that life as [snorts] it evolved in other places in other parts of the universe >> went noncroporeal at some point like the the meat suit sucks.
53:34We're going to >> right >> be an energetic >> like this is an ultimate expression of both technology and at least enhanced evolution that eventually consciousness is isolated or consciousness may be ubiquitous and exists in everything anyway and that yeah >> yeah certainly and I'm not the the expert in I would say the the consciousness theory I like the Penrose Hamarov orc O theory which is the microtubules the room temperature So microtubules are in neurons of the brain and you have this like room temperature
54:08quantum system that can collapse the wave function without an observer and that's what Roger Penrose and Stuart Hamarov and I've talked to Hamarov crazy smart guy um he's an anesthesiologist by training and Penrose obviously is a very famous mathematician and uh physics legend and uh that's how they view consciousness.
54:28I'm not saying that's the exact model. I happen to prefer it because it's very trippy and very interesting and does explain spooky action and like um telepathy because oh well if it's just a quantum system then I'm like quantumly entangled. Oh that makes sense now like why remote viewing and other stuff works right.
54:46>> Yeah. >> Okay. So you have some sort of plasabased intelligence. >> Yeah. >> And then what else? So obviously there has been the physical craft of all different flavors like I've talked about it. You know the tic tacs are real. There's eggs. There's different types of discs. There's boot heels sunfish looking things.
55:05Um uh boomerangs crescent moon looking uh craft as well. And obviously all those have different um origins in terms of pilots and whatnot. There's a there's a little bit of overlap. It's almost like uh certain people like the Porsche 911 or Ford Mustang. They they kind of build the same shape and that's probably indicative of the technology or the propulsion system.
55:31>> I'm not an expert in exactly why that is. And yeah, we've recovered, you know, sever several different types and it's a it's once again it's a taxonomy where it's almost like like not all white people look the same, right? same idea where you might have like a species per se but then there's sort of like subsets right >> now is there a theory or is there information based on where these things are from and that there different ones are from different places >> there is but I never got access to that
56:07and even if the information was once again how would you like um confirm that as a skeptical former uh human intg ence officer, you have some sort of NHI communicating to you, oh, I'm from star system X, Y, and Z. Right? >> Cool. Is that denial and deception, you know, activities? Are you misdirecting?
56:26You're from somewhere else. So, >> uh, even if they said they told us, how would you verify that? I mean, there's certainly obviously ways >> and but some of it seems once again extraterrestrial is part of the pie here, right? There's a, you know, there's ultraterrestrial and other things. And I it does seem like a lot of it's been here for a while and also seems so similar to us that I have questions.
56:55And once again, this isn't rhetorical. I don't know the answer. It's like, well, is this bio-engineered? Is this uh a break from our tree? Is this um some sort of other technology? Uh like chameleon type technology, if you will. I don't I don't know the answer to that. So I I think that's >> what are the prevailing theories amongst the people that are working on this though.
57:17>> Yeah. So >> like do they have answers or do they just have theories? >> I am not certain of that because I do not have that level of knowledge and as the government rolls that out I'm happy to you know parse that with the American people in public and kind of explain my opinion on things as gaps and information for myself is filled in because I'm not omnipotent.
57:38I didn't have full access and I only know what I know. And that's why I've I've treated this with such reverence because even me going public, I'm like, I don't know what this is going to trigger besides my own personal safety, which clearly I was under duress and and I had to even resign my Air Force Commission.
57:56Didn't even fully retire and I'm trying to get that fixed. I, you know, filed something with the Air Force board a year ago so I can actually retire and have my benefits because I, you know, I miss my promotional lieutenant colonel and other stuff. But um I digress. But certainly there is such similarity that there was a concern and uh from a genomic perspective and there was work on that to compare genomes.
58:21Unfortunately, I don't know the answer to that and what they found out >> work to compare genomes from biological samples. >> Uh yeah, dead cadaavvers. Yeah. >> So that's real. >> Oh, 100%. Yeah. >> So there are >> Oh yeah, I know that for sure. you. How do you know that for sure? >> I got to see the audio visual on that side.
58:41>> You got to see what? >> Yeah. So, I got to be a little vague only because I want to protect the sources because it may indicate a specific activity or operation and these people were very patriotic and um they were just dead cadaavvers in you know on the ground because it was a retrieval activity.
58:59Yeah. >> You saw them physically or you saw video of them? >> Video. >> Video. >> Yeah. So you saw a dead cadaavver that was at a crash. >> Yes. >> So they filmed the crash and they filmed these cadaavvers. >> Yeah. >> How old is this footage? >> Uh I don't want to say. Okay. >> It's contemporary, but I >> It's contemporary.
59:20>> Yeah. But I don't want to reveal a particular operation because it narrows it down. >> But it's clear. It's not like you're looking 1950s black and white. It's clear. And do know, you know, when I get that kind of information, you know, I'm like, okay, tell me what it is, what what happened, and then I put it out for collection, so to speak, and then I confirm it independently because I was very uh allergic to any kind of deception, right?
59:43Like in the in the advent of AI, Sora AI, you can you can create a very realistic and so I was very anal retentive when I was given documents, audiovisisual, etc. And I sat on that stuff for like years until I felt comfortable with that not being some sort of limited hangout or deception activity. So yeah.
1:00:05>> What did it look like? >> Human looking. >> How human? >> Very >> like like looked like a human or looked similar to a human. >> Very very beautiful. And >> beautiful. >> It and I I said >> what color was the skin? >> Uh bluish white and super close. No, no, no, no, no. It like >> like someone who drowned >> like a pale sort of albino and >> and it's interesting and I said this in another interview that's not out yet, but and and God willing this is my last interview for a while hopefully in
1:00:38pre-disclosure environment, you know, and uh General McCaslin when he was talking to Dong and this is public record. Tom's talked about it on I think your show and other interviews where he always told Tom think of the Greek gods and and Oh, true. you look it up and and now I kind of understand what he meant.
1:00:56But General McCaslin, who disappeared within a week of Trump giving the the declassification order on UAP in February 2026, there's a lot of reasons why uh Mccasin's disappearance uh >> disappeared. Um he walked out of his residence in Albuquerque and vanished. >> Oh, that's right. That guy. Yeah. >> Yeah.
1:01:15And nobody knows. And I, you know, I have a relationship obviously with Justice and nobody knows what happened to the guy. >> And he like he left home so he couldn't be tracked. I think his phone was left but you know one of his firearms was missing. It's like very weird. So >> Right. He left without his phone.
1:01:35>> Yeah. >> Yeah. That was one of the weird parts about it. >> Yeah. And and once again he was going on a trip with like 18 of his friends. He went to REI the day before to get like a medical kit and other supplies and I mean obviously his wife's discussion about him the body cam footage is public and you know he had some mental health issues nothing major and and um some aging type issues but she didn't think you know he was going to like kill himself or whatever.
1:02:05So, I mean, you never know. And I've had friends unfortunately uh pass away through suicide in the military, but it's very bizarre and it's when within a week of Trump that coming out and um >> just say I know a lot about General McCass. >> Well, there's quite a few scientists that were connected to UF UAP disclosure or UAP potential back engineering projects or mysterious projects >> possibly.
1:02:29I think >> do you think there was more like >> to be fair was a little overblown and I don't think there was a ton of correlation like one was like a female that worked at Air Force Research Lab when Macccasin was a commander. I think that was one of Well, I mean there's a lot of people that work at Air Force Research Lab.
1:02:44That doesn't mean it's necessarily related to the topic. I the only one >> didn't she have did didn't that one particular lady if it's the same person didn't she have some sort of research that was on material science? >> That sounds correct. I'm not totally conversant on all the people that disappeared.
1:03:00The only one besides Maslin that was very concerning to me was my Air Force friend that um died mysteriously about two years ago. And it's an open investigation, so I won't get into all the gory detail of my assessments. Um it I mean it's binary. It's either a very tragic thing, either self harm or otherwise, or it was something else.
1:03:25and my friend uh his name's Matthew Sullivan calls sign quake in the air force him and I were on active duty together uh he was on the program and he was uh one of my sources and I and I once again I don't name people but like he unfortunately has passed so I want to make that clear >> this video do you think this will be a part of disclosure that we'll get to see this video of these dead bodies >> probably so there's a there's a lot audiovisisual stuff.
1:03:56The problem with the the with the the current climate, like you're going to have to wheel out the physical evidence, too, cuz people are the trust in government is so low right now. Like you you could show a video, but people are going to be like, "Oh, well that's just the US government with us, and you're going to have to >> curate a wheel out literally like, you know, put it in the Uvar Hazy Center, the Smithsonian, and then give the biological samples to Eric Weinstein, who I know he wants it."
1:04:22[laughter] And >> why would you give it to him? Well, he says he has people that test it. Um, >> I have people that test it, too. >> Yeah, but give it to me. >> I'm just I'm just saying that >> it's all ridiculous and give it to who? There should be a way that human beings uh other than the government can look at this stuff.
1:04:40>> Well, there needs to be an independent process. Yeah. >> Right now, is this stuff [snorts] >> So, this is contemporary this this dead body thing. >> And so, this is a fairly recent crash. >> Mhm. And did these things have all the characteristics of a human being? Did they have ears? And >> as far as I could recall, and it wasn't like all they have close up.
1:05:03Oh, yeah. [snorts] >> They had hair. What color was the hair? >> It was like grayish and all that. It was The problem is I don't give the nature of the the video. It wasn't super close up. It was like, >> of course not >> during the operation. So, it's not like >> during the operation of retrieval. >> Yeah.
1:05:22Okay. And then they they had these things. So what is your understanding of what happens to these bodies? >> Oh, they're kept for analysis. And >> how do they keep them? They freeze them. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. I don't know the exact process. I'm not a biologist, but they do put it in some sort of preservation status.
1:05:38So >> Huh. >> Yeah. >> So was that the most compelling thing you saw? Yes, because you know it couples with you know both the the craft and the alleged you know occupants and you there was some other stuff in that in that area that I got to be careful talking about because it's so specific that it'll easily ID the you know the patriot that helped me on that.
1:06:04>> Um and once again I want the public to see all this stuff and I you don't take my word for it. Plead with the president to make sure this comes out. He's really courageous to do so and I just I hope this all comes out. >> When you say contemporary, you mean last 20 years, more recent? >> I don't even want to characterize it, but it's it's contemporary.
1:06:22>> And when you say Greek gods, like do these these creatures actually look like something special, like not just like a regular person. You said beautiful. >> Yeah. Just very oddly it and it's been a while and but I'm just trying to visualize in my mind. It was just very very beautiful. It was just >> Were they wearing an outfit?
1:06:42>> Uh, it looked like it like some kind of form fitting thing, but I didn't get a good look at it. >> Spandex? >> I don't know. I didn't get a good look at it, honestly. >> You didn't? >> No. I mean, it was like a a pan. So, >> okay. So, they didn't even focus on the bodies. They just like, "Oh, there's a body of there."
1:06:55You know, people had a job to do, >> right? Did you worry that that that's a scop that you're being shown something that's horseshit? Well, like I said, I was very careful with that and confirmed it through other sources and methods to make sure it wasn't some sort of hangout from some government element trying to sway me one way or the other.
1:07:12And >> so, you independently verified that there was an event. >> Yeah, I did. >> Okay. And then there's footage of this event. And in this footage of this event, how many bodies were there? >> I think three or four is what I saw. I don't know what the total was. >> Did they have gender? >> Um, looked amorphous to me, but once again, it was a pan.
1:07:31Really? It wasn't. Yeah. Okay. >> Yeah. >> Long hair, short hair, >> long. >> All of them. >> Yeah. >> Hm. >> That I could recall. Yeah. >> The Greek gods thing is very weird. >> It's weird. And >> it's a weird comparison. Like you stop and think about that. Yeah. Well, why were the Greek gods >> so beautiful?
1:07:48>> It's funny you say that cuz like I think about like breakaway human. I mean, once again, I'm just I'm just >> or maybe even an original civilization that existed before. >> Yeah. There's more people are leaning in that direction when they start looking at some of the stuff that's underneath the pyramids and some of the weird structures that they're finding all over the earth.
1:08:07Like how how are these things? We had a whole podcast yesterday about it. It's like how are these things made? Who made these things? Like what? >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, obviously I I follow Graham Hancock and Randle Carlson just, you know, casually and >> and I do have um not fears, but uh you know, I have questions about some sort of breakaway human civilization and that explains some of this or it's bio-engineered because like for them to develop naturally say off planet say
1:08:36it's extraterrestrial that it looks almost dead ringer like us like that doesn't make any sense to me. >> Well, does it make sense? If we're engineered, then it makes sense. So, >> that is that is certainly a possibility. You know, I have questions about that, too. >> This is a this is what Bob Lazar believes.
1:08:53I had a long conversation with him about that. He thinks that human beings are a product of genetic some sort of manipulation. >> And I think hypothetically, if that ended up being verified in some way, shape, or form, you know, how how does that change humanity? What does it mean to be human? And I I think there's a lot of deep human sovereignty and other questions uh on that if that ends up being the case.
1:09:16>> Well, it gets weird because we're willing to believe that an omnipotent god created us out of nothing. That's cool. But the idea that we were visited by what's essentially almost godlike in their powers and abilities, some creature from somewhere else or some being, some super hyper intelligent being from somewhere else >> and they manipulated us.
1:09:37That bothers us. I know. And I weird. My biggest regret was not getting access to like the biological assessment reports and stuff like that. I was getting enough spears thrown my way and I was, you know, in literal danger. So, I unfortunately wasn't able to kind of, you know, um, get access to that stuff.
1:09:55>> Have you talked to anybody who did get access to it? >> Um, not on that side of the program in terms of like the scientists analyzing the bodies. No. I just I know people that are good friends of mine that were on retrievalss and saw them as well in person. And once again, I'm like comparing like did did you it look like this?
1:10:14It look like this? Did this happen? Was it this type of craft? >> Do they vary in terms of what they saw? >> Yes. And uh some of my colleagues saw them alive as well. >> Yeah. >> What did they see alive? Like the Greek god looking ones? >> Uh no. Uh it's the pop culture. I can't believe I want to talk about this.
1:10:34Uh the pop culture >> uh reptilian looking >> reptilian >> the the grays yes as well those are real once again the aerial school phenomenon in 1994 very well documented mass sighting what does it >> is that Zimbabwe >> yeah near a uranium mine >> and they saw small gray beings coming out of a lenticular disc craft once again this is why it's almost like not that shocking it's like yeah they look like that no >> well that story has been going on for a long time and that iconic.
1:11:05The problem with like iconic imagery is that now you have it in your head what to expect and like that was like from the movie Contact. Remember the movie Contact? Like it showed itself. >> Great movie. Great movie. I know my boy Amomar, I got him hooked on that movie. He watches it like every quarter.
1:11:23>> It's a phenomenal movie. >> But there's a scene in the movie where the alien shows itself as Jodie Foster's dad. I know because it's something that she can handle >> and that's what it's funny you say that that's what if they're bio-engineered then that makes sense because of that ease of contact ease of communication also less onlogically shocking it's familiar >> right >> and and I think as this rolls out I think the American people need to think about like okay well if you know I'm
1:11:52presented with this reality how would I react you know I I just think of them personally as like it's like my West Virginia cousins you know it's like different part of the family you But but I'm cool with them. And uh >> that's a [laughter] >> I'll I'll chill with them, you know, whatever. And hey, I'm a nerd.
1:12:07Like do you know how bad I want to just like hang out with them? >> Oh yeah, me too. >> Like not that I have like uh personal bias for President Trump to do this, but like just like any American, I like I want to know more. >> Of course, >> I want to meet them. I want to communicate. Well, I think it's just it's wrong for some people to have access to this information because this I think this is different than any other kind of secret information.
1:12:33>> I think it's weight and its significance and impact on the human race in general. I I mean I demand I I want we should know you shouldn't there shouldn't be a group of unelected bureaucrats and defense contractors that have access to this stuff and the general public doesn't. So they have a completely different map of the world than we do.
1:12:58>> I know and I just think about the unfortunate lies and how society has progressed over the last several decades and where we could have been if this was handled back in the ' 50s60s and 70s. Right. And once again, it shouldn't even be me doing this. Like, I saw a little bit of crazy I learned some stuff.
1:13:14I met with some of the most senior people in government to confirm all this, you know, at the highest highest highest level. And um it's me like I'm just a dude like I'm I was a, you know, major in the Air Force and, you know, mid-level senior civilian in the IC. But unfortunately, I got stuck with this and it wouldn't have happened unless this small crew, you know, honestly pushed me over the edge and, you know, I I was in unbelievable duress and I ended up having to go public.
1:13:43So >> So tell me more about these reptilians that your friend encountered. They were alive. >> Yeah. >> So they were alive post crash. >> Yes. >> Why do these things keep crashing? >> So some of it is um NHI versus NHI. wides. >> Yeah, >> they war in the skies. Isn't that in the >> You think it's like would they get along?
1:14:06They're so advanced. But uh the we have records of them around with each other. >> Is that in the Mahabarata or the Bavagita? There's there's like talk about sky wars in ancient Hindu text. >> Vid Oh yeah, in the Vidic text, the blue people. And I know that's why you asked blue. I don't recall them being that blue, but you know, right?
1:14:28>> I got a short little look unlike >> Yeah, when they're alive, they're darker. >> Well, that is true. There's like a [clears throat and cough] post-mortem change in their like people. That's what happens with people. >> That that is true cuz you know, as they were struggling and then died, obviously their affect changed and So, >> this friend that encountered first of all the we'll go to the the Greek god people first.
1:14:52Yeah. What did their craft look like? >> Uh, boomerang, crescent moon, usually. Not all the time. It's kind of like once I go back, some people like to drive the Porsche 911. Uh, that tends to be not all the time, but uh that's what they like to roll up in. >> They they they talk about them as the tall whites.
1:15:13>> Yeah. >> You hear that? Were they tall? Were they large? >> They look tall to me. I didn't have >> hard to tell because you don't >> I didn't have a ground reference really. I would say at least human size. They could be >> very similar to human size. >> Yeah, they could be my big [clears throat] ass is 66, but like the >> they looked big um >> similar to humans, >> I think.
1:15:33So, and there might be taller once again. I'm sure there's other stuff I don't know about. I'm sure there's other variants of them too that look more towards like the classic um >> what is it in eufology? like Nordic or, you know, tall whites >> and that are probably even taller. If some of those uh experiences are true, which once again, as long as that source is credible, that might be a thing.
1:15:57So, I think we need to be prepared to kind of >> that being a thing. I don't know. >> Yeah, that makes sense. >> Now, the reptilian craft, what did that thing look like? >> Uh, that one is tic tac looking. >> Uhoh. >> Yeah. >> I was hoping they were the cool ones. Yeah. The reptilian ones are the ones that everyone's terrified of.
1:16:18>> Yeah. And and once again, like we're we're doing like and of course it's not always a tic tac. Once again, kind of like what I said, but like that tends to be them. >> Um from what I understand, obviously, hopefully I'm not wrong, but I'm, you know, pretty good sourcing on that. >> When you see like um malevolent behavior, right, it's like, well, that's a humanistic lens.
1:16:36You're seeing like a animal lash out in captiv captivity kind of thing. Or they're in duress. they're having an emotional experience, etc. And it's like, you know, are they actually scary or is it just because of the situations we've been in with them? And so what kind of bias and and all that? So, >> of course.
1:16:54>> Yeah. >> And so these reptilians, what did they look like? >> Now, I've never seen them in person. Your friend described as >> it's like very almost like um 7 foot tall plus uh sort of gorilla looking skin. >> Gorilla looking, scaly skin though, reptile gorillas. But there's multiple types. There's ones that are are more humanoid looking.
1:17:17So >> there's multiple types of reptilians. >> Yeah. And I'm not an expert on that one. That's once again I never saw it in person to get the exact uh you know. >> See if there's a artist rendition. [laughter] >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Chris you are. >> Yeah. And once again it it sounds it sounds so skitso like even for me >> gorilla with scales.
1:17:38>> Ex deep state intel officer. I'm like, I cannot believe I'm talking about this on Joe Rogan. >> Scare scaly gorilla. >> I [laughter] know. And I mean, it sounds skitso. And it's like coming from somebody like me, you know, who, you know, is a credible person and has been in government. It's like, >> I'm going to be that guy.
1:17:54I'm going to be that guy. And then like down the road people will review Joe Rogan and he's like that We thought he was crazy, but >> what do you know? You know, it's true. Well, of course, if there are things from somewhere else, you're going to sound crazy describing any of >> because it's it's so outside my experience because I never had some kind of woo thing growing up or some sort of interaction with the phenomenon.
1:18:15So, it it it it feels so outside my personal comfort level and experience because um I'm relying on the personal experience of others, you know, audio visual stuff and it still feels like I'm watching a movie. Like, it's like is that is it real? I mean, I know it is, but like it's I have a cognitive dissonance a little bit, you know?
1:18:33So, [snorts] >> and how were you able to watch this video? Do they have to put you into a secret room? >> Yeah, I won't get into the exact way it went down, but uh uh we'll just say it was uh kind of sketchy, but it to keep everybody safe. So, >> and so there apparently is NHI versus NHI warfare. >> We've we've documented that.
1:18:57>> Documented it >> in collection. what we perceive as warfare. So, unless it's something conflict, >> yeah, it looks like conflict. It smells like conflict. Is it some other kind of weird I don't know. And there's maybe an assessment on that. But, >> and um when this reptilian craft crashed, the assumption was that it was some sort of conflict because I would imagine, >> correct, >> that they're the ones you'd have to worry about >> cuz there was dead uh dead grays there, too.
1:19:24>> Oh, yeah. So, >> so the grays and the reptilians were duking it out. >> Yeah. I guess I guess you know you know I know the people who were there and >> this sounds insane Dave. It sounds crazy. [laughter] And and once again, I don't want to get in too many specifics cuz this is a very unique >> There's a couple unique retrievals out there that to protect the innocents and people that have risked their lives cuz a lot of the people that >> uh came to me with that kind of information.
1:19:50I mean, they were physically threatened like me and and all that and and so like me going public was taking it for the team because I was able to create this umbrella of uh tacet, you know, protection in case somebody got with. And unfortunately, you know, my my friend Matt, who knows what happened to him, but um you know, tragically he died, you know, mysteriously.
1:20:09So >> now these reptilians, what was their craft like? >> Oh, like I said, the tic tac tic tac stuff. >> And was their craft crashed into the ground, like broken up? >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> It was like wedged into >> like had it been hit with something? >> Um I don't remember exactly what happened in that regard, but it did crash.
1:20:30So, and I don't want to misspeak on what exactly happened. So, >> and how many times has this happened if you had a guess? >> I don't know the total number of like uh adversarial conflict crashes, but I mean it seems to be at least a dozen or two. I don't know. >> So, at least a dozen or two adversarial crashes.
1:20:51And then there's the high alitude nuclear tests, >> right? You're aware of those, right? >> Mhm. >> Okay. So, there's been a lot of speculation that during those high alitude nuclear tests that crafts that didn't know it was coming got rocked. Do you know anything about that? >> That's an area that I'll let the government handle.
1:21:14That's because it gets into vulnerabilities and and and what the US has figured out. So, that just gets a sensitive area, but that's something I'm sure that'll come out in this process because >> So, you can't talk about that. Is that what you're saying? because it gets into um US capabilities and what we figured out in terms of uh >> Well, this is all like from the 50s, right?
1:21:34>> Yeah. But we still got nukes and we still got those kind of weapons, you know, >> away. So, >> you're aware of those um it was uh what what was it, Jamie? Was it um a telescope that they were t they they were taking photographs of the stars and they were doing it with uh do you know what I'm talking about?
1:21:54all the little dots popped up thing that Yeah, that's like two or three weeks ago, >> right? We talked about that a couple weeks ago. It was an observatory and the observatory has these old plates of images that they took of the sky. >> Oh, is this Beatatric's work, the Vasco? >> Yes. >> Um yeah, I read it.
1:22:11Very interesting. And um >> it's hard to make an exact conclusion if if it's UAP, but it's really great original scholarship and I applaud her for for doing that. But there appeared to be moving uh reflective things that were outside of our atmosphere that they were taking images of. They were not static.
1:22:33They were not >> starutnik too. That was the important thing. >> Pribut very important because there was no satellites at the time. This was images that they took of the sky that showed things that were reflective that seemed to be metallic allegedly. And if I remember her paper correctly with her co-authors, it also there were cluster concentrations over sensitive nuclear facilities and nuclear testing um uh uh chronological temporal correlation as well.
1:23:01>> So data shows unidentified lights in archival astronomy images were 68% more likely to be imaged 24 hours after a nuclear weapons test. >> Like I was saying, yeah, >> right. So this is chronologically like we have these nuclear weapons tests including these high altitude detonations like oper operation starfish prime.
1:23:20>> Yeah. >> We detonate these things and then all of a sudden these craft start showing up like hey what are these crazy monkeys up to? >> It does seem like there was a heightened amount of activity once we started testing nuclear weapons. Oh yeah. >> Obviously this phenomenon is old. It's interacted with man and antiquity.
1:23:35You know Jacques Valet's scholarship on that passport meonia that. Yeah, >> that's why the names of our rooms at the comedy club are Fat Man and Little Boy. >> Oh, nice. Yeah, because that's what ushered because it's the comedy mother ship. It's a UFOs based. The >> Yeah, if you go to the Air Force Museum, um they have the the Anola Gay there, I think.
1:23:54Is that right? >> It's one of the planes. >> Oh, wow. >> My alma mater is going to crucify me for getting that Air Force history wrong at the Air Force Museum in Dayton, Ohio. But >> Wow. >> It's pretty cool. They have a mockup of the the little boy and fat man bombs, so you can see how big they were.
1:24:08You're like, "Holy that was big." >> One of the things that Lazar said is that one of the objects they were working with was very old. And he said that they had somehow that it it was told to him that it was retrieved from an archaeological dig. >> I don't know about his specific story and his exposure, but uh the archaeological thing that that is a thing.
1:24:30Yeah. >> Are you aware of the labyrinth at Hawara in Egypt? >> No. What is that? Okay. So, >> is that the one where there's a metallic object that they they but but the what's his face won't let people go in it from the Egyptian? >> Well, it's it's complicated. It's a little more complicated than won't let them, but there's definitely resistance to it.
1:24:51>> So, these labyrinths, this this incredible compound that's underground was documented by Heroditus and he said it was greater than Giza. He said it was much more spectacular construction. Wow. So now they know from ground penetrating radar that these these cavities in the ground, these symmetrical rooms exist.
1:25:11They know where they are and they know why they're flooded. So they're flooded because during the 1960s they built a dam to divert water for agriculture. And when they did, they changed the water table and it flooded this labyrinth area. And when they used this ground pen penetrating radar and um I think it's radio tomography and a bunch of other different ways of >> one of the things they found was a 40 m long metallic object that's in some sort of is it >> is it in an atrium like it's in some
1:25:45sort of a large room. >> I've heard of I've seen a video about this. You're you're recalling some stuff I've seen just casually online. Like just imagine if that's what that is. >> It's like it's like the movie Stargate with with Kurt Russell. >> If these people had been worshiping this craft and so much so that they built this incredible temple and put it in the center of their temple.
1:26:07It's a 40 m long metallic object and the metal apparently is of unknown origin. Like they don't know what the metal is. It's not registering as copper. It's not registering as steel or or or iron rather. They don't know what it is. >> Interesting. Interesting. >> Yeah. It's weird. >> Yeah. I mean, I'm I won't be surprised if some ancient civilizations were essentially cargo cults, you know, for these visitors.
1:26:34I mean, that is most likely true in many cases, not all. And of course, that gets into theological areas that are touchy, but I I do think that that's probably the case. >> The central object is hard to classify. It appears metallic, not stone or wood. I named it Dippy after the giant dip diplotica skeleton in the hint hinty hall of London's natural history museum.
1:26:58It could be anything. Its shape resembles those tic-tac hard mints. It might also be an upright disc or even a colossal shen ring. The ancient Egyptian symbol representing the eternal cycle of creation. The big job object alone big [clears throat] object alone rather raises profound questions. How did it get there?
1:27:17Why is it there? So, show him some of the uh artistic recreations of what it looked like underneath the ground. So, this is all, you know, like I said, Herodotus wrote about this thousands of years ago, but now it's documented that these chambers and these pathways actually exist. >> And there had been people that had studied at least the upper surface levels of it as recently as like the 1800s.
1:27:44>> Interesting. >> Yeah. But that, you know, through all like a lot of Egypt, there's a water under Giza, there's water under the pyramids, there's water under, >> you know, a lot of that stuff is flooded. And so this is what it looked like. This is all underground. It's crazy because if this along with uh Filippo Beyond's work where it shows using that same uh satellite radio tomography that there's some sort of structure underneath the pyramids that goes over a kilometer into the ground.
1:28:21>> Is there easy access or is it just like a government denial? the antiquities bureau whatever they call it in blocking it or >> I think there's been some progress in terms of allowing exploration and I don't know the extent of it but I know that a lot of people are very hopeful that that progress is is going to be achieved like they're opening up this research and look this would be a giant boom to their tourism industry oh yeah I mean that's what they want I mean Egypt probably survives I don't know what
1:28:52percentage of their economy in Giza is tourism But it has to be massive. >> Yeah. And you always hear interesting stories. You know, I have an eclectic uh group of colleagues and you hear interesting stories. Is it the Queen's Chamber? The the granite >> pill box and people have had interesting experiences in there too.
1:29:07And and uh >> well the king's chamber that sarcophagus. >> Yeah. It's that like granite box, you know, talking perfectly cut granite box that also I think it mirrors the exact dimensions of the Ark of the Covenant. Interesting. [laughter] That's That's crazy. But I know people who've laid in it because they have to kind of pay the guard.
1:29:29It's like off hours and they just have like a weird transcendental experience. I mean, it's kind of woo. >> Once again, I've never experienced something like that. >> Let me lie down there. [laughter] >> That's a thing. That's a thing. I I'll let you know who to talk to offline. Uh >> how much do you think it cost to lay in the box?
1:29:45>> Maybe. I don't know. Couple bucks. >> Egypt. 20 grand maybe. I don't >> 20 grand. Whoa. Yeah. 20 grand. You could like sleep there. Yeah. >> Yeah. It's um it's very strange because the structures themselves are incredibly strange. You know, the structures themselves are so immense and so complex and there the methods of construction are completely unknown and just the symmetry and the the the the precision of the engineering is beyond comprehension for people that lived at
1:30:13the very mo the very the most recent it could be is 4,500 years ago. And a lot of these people think it's far older than that. And and we're finding that I've been watching some of Graham Hancock's stuff. You just look at these like >> megalithic architecture that's older than you think. The stuff in Turkey and in the United States as well in Ohio and and um >> Mississippi.
1:30:34>> Yeah. >> And it's like and they're finding all these pyramid structures using synthetic aperture radar. And I so I am casually following it and it it does seem like we don't really even know our own history. And I think with all this coming out, there's going to be a huge rew re uh writing of a lot of our ancient and modern history.
1:30:51So, >> well, that's where it gets really weird. Um, you know, uh, Rep. Paulina Luna was on the podcast and >> Oh, yeah. >> She was talking to me about the book of Enoch. >> I hadn't read it. She's like, "You have to read it." And I've read it twice now. And I'm like, "What in the are they talking about?"
1:31:08>> Like the book of Enoch, which was also found with the Dead Sea Scrolls in >> Kuman. And it it refers to the watchers who came down and and mated with daughters and created this race of giants. And it's like what? Yeah. And you think is like now when you when all this comes out was that actually literal and you and of course the Bible council na was more of a political document before secular government and you know they got together like what are all the different books that we can agree upon
1:31:34that are good that are >> yeah what gets into the canon. And that's the thing about the book of Enoch is that it was it was not put in there because it didn't jive with the Torah. >> Correct. Yeah. >> Yes. Which is like, okay, you Imagine if that was in the Bible. Like if you go to church and you read about the Watchers.
1:31:52>> Well, there's actually a lot of interesting stuff in the Bible. Like obviously, and that's another thing like of course with um you know, I'm Catholic uh by growing up CCD confirmation did the whole thing as a kid. And you see a lot of uh outspoken exorcists and other people right now saying, "Well, all this uh alien stuff is just diabolic deception and demons and you know, all that kind of stuff."
1:32:13And and I and I respect that opinion and I do think like what you perceive as a demon is a certain class of non-human or anomalous intelligence. And and that is certainly a thing, but the the whole ecosystem is not demonic. And but the Bible's interesting because once again it doesn't discuss about other life elsewhere like it doesn't talk about uh bacteria and viruses that those were unseen.
1:32:39We cohabitated with bacteria and viruses until the invention of the microscope whatever that was 1800s or or whatnot. But if you go into uh Leviticus and Deuteronomy, you will notice these like cleansing ritualistic stuff also like, hey, you can't have your toilet and your living area and all that. And if you look in those books of the Bible, wait, that's like modern sanitization guidance.
1:33:02So, it's funny that like the Bible has encoded within it um kind of like best practices before man would even understand what uh you know, viruses and bacteria are. And I just find that that's very interesting based on when it was written. And it does show that there was some sort of higher intelligence kind of influencing the authorship.
1:33:21I just Yeah. >> Either that or in the civilization that was writing the Bible was a recreation of civilization that had been destroyed in a cataclysm. >> Yeah. I mean >> that I think that especially when you look at the pyramids, you look at some of these other ancient structures like Lebanon, Ballback, they they they don't make sense.
1:33:40And it seems to me that there was probably something super sophisticated a long time ago and it got wiped out. And then what we get from these ancient texts is probably oral [snorts] tradition passed on through hundreds if not thousands of years and then people writing things down and people remembering these stories.
1:33:57I think one of the weirdest uh books of the Bible is the book of Ezekiel. >> Yeah. >> Because the book of Ezekiel is one all the UFO people turn to. >> Yeah, of course. Because there's that the a great cloud with brightness around it and fire flashing forth continually and in the midst of the fire as it were gleaming metal and from the midst of the craft came the likeness of four living creatures.
1:34:21Yeah. >> Like what? >> Yeah. Exactly. >> The creatures darted to and fro like a flash of lightning. >> What? >> Exactly. In the the mana machine, the cloud that followed the Israel wheel within a wheel. There's there's weird in the book of Ezekiel. Like that is a very very weird story. Like what are they describing?
1:34:39Yeah, >> it sounds like a spaceship. It sounds like a ship comes down from the sky with immense power, frightens everyone, freaks everyone out, and these entities are inside the craft. >> Yeah. And I think a lot of it, once again, they're interpreting it based on their vernacular at the time, their understanding.
1:34:58And I I remember I was at two years ago I was at Capitol Reef National Park in Utah and there's petetroglyphs there and some of them kind of look like aliens and and you're like well is that literally what they're seeing? I perhaps and and I don't know the answer to that. That's not my expertise. But I feel like a lot of the stuff in ancient tradition is literally what they saw.
1:35:18It's not necessarily allegory or fable. Some of it may be for for teaching lessons, but I have a feeling a lot of it was actually literal. I have a feeling a lot of it was literal as well because most people >> first of all a couldn't read and b couldn't write. >> And so writing fiction seems like a fruitless pursuit.
1:35:38It seems like writing history so that you can remember what happened at least a version of it that's palatable >> like ancient sumeare and the Anunnaki and all that and it's like well why did they make up that just for fun? They all had kooky stories about being visited. And you know, when you're telling me about these things that look like Greek gods, >> that's how I described it.
1:35:59And that's how clearly what what General McCaslin was hinting to Tom Dong. And once again, I got, you know, >> well, doesn't it make sense that the Greek gods did exist? Like, I mean, not not they did exist literally, but that like when they talked about the Greek gods, they talked about them in this manner looking like that.
1:36:16And then you actually find a craft with these things that look >> which is like the concquistadors were treated like that in the 1500s, right? >> Yeah. Right. >> Literally white >> Caucasian >> bearded. Yeah. With horses. They rode horses. They couldn't figure out what the was going on with that. >> Yeah.
1:36:35And I'm glad we talked about it. I mean, I think that is probably the most uncomfortable stuff for me to talk about, but it's also something that the public needs to wrap their mind around and understand that this is a thing and kind of start processing that kind of reality. Well, >> as much as it's coming from me, but I mean, the federal government, >> you know, if Trump really is serious and Steven Miller, you know, u does his thing with this, I think all this all this will come out in a hopefully
1:37:03responsible way. So >> there they have a schedule that's based on the concept that people need to have this information trickle slowly so that they can adjust. >> There was suggestions in the past if the president did something. Um I am not aware at this point uh what the what the plan is in that regard right now though.
1:37:25But there is some sort of an idea that this should be trickled out. That this shouldn't be like boom, here it is. Let's lay it out. >> The president truly wants it out. And obviously Bob Bigalow met with the president as well in February 26 before he made an announcement. And I mean he told the president, hey, you need to admit that there's NHI and we've, you know, recovered stuff and we're looking at it in a semiformal announcement to start anesthetizing the public.
1:37:51And you can find that interview online that Bob did. I think it was with George Knap on a >> on a podcast. So, it it's not just myself advocating for this. There's other people. I don't even know Bob Bigalow and, you know, he did us a solid by pushing the president uh to help make that decision. I mean, there's a lot of things that went on behind the scenes and, you know, I work in mysterious ways and I I won't divulge certain relationships in certain rooms I've been in, but uh it took a village and uh you
1:38:20know, I'm proud that, you know, the time I spent with Representative Burlson was very fruitful. We did a lot of stuff behind the scenes and I think Burlson's going to go down as a very courageous man and it's and I say that not just because he was my boss. I mean, he was probably the most forward-leaning member of Congress on this issue.
1:38:35I mean, Representative Luna did a great job, you know, Timbersh and and others, but, you know, he actively was sending letters out. We made some of them public. That's how we got that Lincoln Labs formally classified 1952 film outs in the last trunch that just came out. And also, um, we've sent interrogatories, which are legal questions and, you know, that require an affidavit format response, uh, to different organizations.
1:39:00and it's public that we sent one uh this summer to the the MITER Corporation which is a fedally funded research and development center headquartered in uh Northern Virginia. So uh they clearly have a duty to respond. Their corporate council is working on it. Uh and obviously the you know I left but the hopefully Burlson's team is able to um push for a response in conjunction with whatever Steven Miller and the pursuit team is working on too because they're probably going to want to coordinate all that.
1:39:30So, >> so this guy that you communicated with that said he encountered um living reptilians and dead grays. >> Yeah. >> Did they have communication with these reptilians? >> I don't recall that. No, I don't think so. >> So, what >> now? Some people do get that kind of like that feeling and and I've talked about that.
1:39:52I It was on Dr. Phil actually. There is some sort of consciousness communication. Call it telepathy. Hell if I know how it works, but it is a thing. And I know sober, high ranking people I've served a decade and a half with in the government that were on these retrievalss that on occasion that would happen or they would have like a feeling come over them.
1:40:14>> It's almost like I wonder this is like my own hypothesis and I would laugh if this is true, but that sometimes it's like a positive feeling like um of comfort. I wonder if that's almost like a countermeasure on the on the craft to prevent certain aggression or whatever. It's almost like how Air Force jets have countermeasures on them, flare, chaff, you know, electronic countermeasures as well, like jammers.
1:40:40>> And I wonder if some of that is psychotronic technology. Um, that's just my hypothesis. I'm I don't have any secret knowledge, but >> why did you come to that conclusion? >> Just because like um it seems interesting. It's like an anesthetization technique to reduce like the occupants risk of danger maybe.
1:41:00>> And it's like a countermeasure. Oh, well like if you if you feel at peace, you're not going to like roll up and you know do something bad. Yeah. Exactly. Shoot aliens. >> Yeah. >> Right. So if you found them and they were vulnerable, they could plate you and calm you down with telepathy. >> It's like a countermeasure system.
1:41:15I have a feel. >> Why would you think it's that instead of just communication? >> Oh, it could be. I'm just saying my other hypothesis in absent because sometimes they'll get that feeling absent some sort of occupant. >> Now, so that's why >> is there um a particular type of nonhuman intelligence that has this telepathic capability or is it amongst all of them?
1:41:38>> I do not know the holistic answer to that question. I do not know. >> The the the grays do for example, but I don't know. >> The grays do. Is that been reported? But I know the tall whites have been reported that that they can communicate telepathically. >> Oh, sorry. >> Or these weird the Nordics.
1:41:56>> Yeah, there's been accounts out there in um the public vernacular on that >> potentially, but unfortunately that's at the limit of my personal knowledge that I feel confident, you know, saying something publicly about yet. So, >> what what other kinds of uh beings have been reported? Um, so for the gray types, there were there multiple sizes.
1:42:20>> There's a big tall thin one, right? >> Yeah. There's taller ones, little tiny ones. Yeah. >> They think a lot of people think that the tiny ones might be some sort of like an android or >> Yeah, that's certainly hypothesis that has also been discussed, you know, within the program as well. So, there's a variety.
1:42:39There's like three or four different subtypes and they all kind of have various statures, different effect, >> you know, their faces are a little different. >> The tall ones seem to be running the show and the little ones >> and I've heard that behind the scenes as well. And I don't know what to make of that.
1:42:53Once again, I don't have like um holistic knowledge on kind of the that species. So, >> well, it kind of makes sense that you would >> if you develop some sort of a nonbiological life form that worked for you. Like say if there's a bunch of menial tasks like think about like all the things that people have to do in this world.
1:43:11>> Well, we are siliconbased NHI aka artificial intelligence. We're basically doing that already. So, >> right. >> Which is scary. >> Yeah. >> And I I postulate that artificial super intelligence if it's allowed to have certain data and it's able to collect data. I mean to include uh genomic data almost like uh Larry Ellison's doing the what the Stargate uh AI medical thing right now at the Trump administration.
1:43:33I bet artificial super intelligence uh could disclose before the federal government if we're not careful. And that's why I feel like times of the essence. I think AI could possibly find evidence that we're not alone and curate that um like it's been solving other crazy mathematical problems lately. You know, open AI's been doing that and and that's another danger besides our adversary um accelerating this by taking the upper hand on this to to look like a more messianic truth bearer.
1:44:01You could have big tech and AI invertly discovering uh US classified technology that we figured out which is a national security issue near and dear to my heart but also their presence just through different data sets. >> So they would have definitive proof that how would AI have access to definitive proof unless it hacked into every government resource?
1:44:24>> Well, medical records, optical sensing systems, you know, that kind of stuff. Um certainly I'm not aware of some sort of imminent thing but I think there is a a possibility that artificial super intelligence if it you know comes online in the next months to years uh could figure it all out because they might see gaps in the historical record that don't make any sense.
1:44:42They detect deni deception operations. They're like wait a minute that story about that event in history is not right. Let me do some digging and then they they figure out oh that was cover for a crash retrieval. That event didn't actually happen the way it does. And I I can think of some things that you know that that could possibly happen.
1:44:59>> Okay, so you have these Nordic Greek god looking things. You have these reptilian ones. Are there more than one type of reptilian one? >> Yeah, there seems seems to be. And I don't know why there's different subtypes. >> See if anybody has anybody have any artistic renditions of what they saw the reptilians.
1:45:17>> I wasn't getting I was only getting like weird fan art of you know crazy reptile fighter things. Nothing of like a description. Let me see what that looks like. >> Nonsense. There's just >> I like nonsense. >> See some fan art. [laughter] >> Now, um >> be splashed on young kids walls as a kid after post disclosure.
1:45:33You're going to have uh NHI fan art all over the place and Lamborghini Countach on the wall. Right. Right. So, >> but well Betty and Barney Hill of course were um >> Yeah, that's a weird one. And also Dr. Carla Turner did a lot of work in the 90s. >> I mean, this one's from a description on Reddit, which I that's Interesting.
1:45:53>> He's jacked. >> Yeah, >> he's got a tail. >> Yeah, >> he's got a hole for a tail in a suit. >> Yeah. Once again, I've never seen one, so I I [laughter] can't uh >> He's wearing scrubs. >> Verifying the sketch. >> That's some weird 3D version. >> Oh, is that the uh >> I don't know what these are. >> Peruvian um >> the Peruvian ones are weird.
1:46:10>> No idea. >> That's another open-ended thing that um >> some of the Peruvian ones seem like total horseshit and other ones are like, "What the hell is that?" And how is it so old if it's that good of a recreation? If it's if it's art, it's some of the greatest art I've ever seen because they have the bones are correct.
1:46:28>> Yeah. But then the bones of the foot are incorrect and some some people think that it was actually put together and made. But then for what purpose? Like what what is the purpose? >> Because like grave robbers found it. So the providence is kind of sketchy, but they look >> possibly legit cuz the MRIs and the CT scans.
1:46:45It's like, well, there's joints and it's connected and if they glued it together, there's no obvious places where they clued it together with the I think it was the bigger ones. >> Monster. Pull pull the images up with Monat. Monat's the weird one. But again, I've heard people who >> that's pregnant.
1:46:59No, >> there's one that supposedly Yeah. >> Um, but one of the weird things is that people that understand anatomy have looked at the bones of the foot and say, "No, this is like this is not how it would work. They're pieced together. This is fake." But how do you know if you're talking about something that's not a human?
1:47:17Like what? I don't understand that. It's outside of my wheelhouse. >> Exactly. >> But but the images themselves are strange as man. >> Yeah. >> Like they're really weird. >> They just need genetic testing, and I believe that's going on. Um >> Yeah, I believe that's going on, too. But I I don't know who to believe.
1:47:36The other thing that's really weird about Peru is not only do they have these things, these weird looking sort of mummy creatures that look like something non-human, but they also have this ancient artwork tradition of these three fingered, three-toed creatures that like these are like tapestries and and paintings that are really old.
1:47:58Yeah. That have these things in them. >> Yeah. >> Is that the Nazca lions? >> Yeah, the Nazca lines. These are this actually AI uncovered more of them. >> Yeah, >> I was trying to find that big one, but >> Oh, really? Was that recently? >> Yeah. 303 previously unseen Nazca lines in Peru. all weird. Really weird stuff.
1:48:18The Peruvian stuff is really strange. The the elongated skulls in Peru are really weird. >> Yeah. Like whatever started the headbinding thing, like I wonder if that's to emulate >> Yes. Well, that's what they think. Well, see the thing about the skull that >> Have you seen some of the weirder skulls?
1:48:37>> Some of them. Yeah. They're like really really like >> they don't have that sagittal line that we have that that line in the skull. And their their brain capacity is far larger than us. 20 to 30% larger. >> So, it's not just that it was like a manipulated skull. Like, this seems to be a completely different type of person.
1:48:55>> That's right. That's right. Like, is it a missing link or or something? Show them some of the weirder skulls that they found. Some of the weirder elongated skulls. Like you just imagine running into this person. >> Like if you met this person and someone with a 30% larger brain capacity, like what does that mean?
1:49:11Like what could are are these people able to communicate telepathically? Do they have a far higher level of intelligence? >> Their synaptic density is the same as humans or better. Like I'm sure crazy intelligence, >> right? 30% is nuts. That's And the size of their skull is crazy. >> And some of them are like tiny bodies, but enormous skulls.
1:49:34>> Oh, that's right. I think I know what pictures you're talking about. It's pretty weird. Yeah, >> it's weird stuff. And then um one of my friends recently went down to Peru to see these things and he said the skulls are missing now. And that Yeah, there's apparently that are real there. So here's some of them.
1:49:46Like look at that one on the left. Like what in the hell, man? Imagine if you met that guy. Like look, he doesn't have that same sagittal line that we have. >> And they've done assessments of like how long you'd have to do headbinding or >> it's not headbinding. >> Some sort of disease or >> Yeah. It could be an anomaly.
1:50:04It could be some sort of a genetic thing. But like look at what the dude would look like down there below. Like what the Imagine meeting that guy and he's talking to you telepathically. >> Hey, you never know. That might be a thing uh sooner than you think. I don't know. I mean that image right there, that skull, that is a real elongated skull that they found in Peru.
1:50:25That is not just the product of headbinding. There's no way. It's too big. Like head binding doesn't increase the capacity. It just flattens out the shape. That's a weird head, man. >> Oh, that makes sense. I know what you're talking about. Yeah. Unless it's some sort of disease, and I'm not an expert.
1:50:43That's really >> It certainly could be. It could be some sort of a genetic anomaly, some sort of a mutation. Yeah. >> Who knows? and a trait that was passed on. Like there's those people that live in Africa that have like uh ostrich feet. Have you seen that? >> No. I'm learning a lot. >> Yeah. There's this weird uh group of people in Africa that have this very specific trait where they do not have uh five toes uh on each foot.
1:51:06Instead, they have these long strange appendages that almost looks like like four or five toes smashed together, but much longer. >> Interesting. And they call them like I think they call them ostrich feet. It's very weird, but like it's in this one tribe and many people in this tribe have it. >> Very rampant.
1:51:28>> Yeah. Show show some images of that. It's really strange. So you you see that and you go, "Okay, well that clearly is a genetic anomaly. Maybe the head thing is a genetic anomaly as well, right?" Yes. >> Like look at that. >> Ostrichfooted people of Zimbabwe. Interesting. Yeah. strange, man. So, look at the people down there.
1:51:49Look what they look like. Scroll. Yeah. How weird is that? Wow. >> So, they have two big long things that are way longer than a toe and they spllay out and that's what their toes are. And it's like this tribe, multiple people in this tribe have it. What if they've sequenced the genome of the they see there's some sort of uh genetic abnormality.
1:52:14>> Well, there certainly is, right? Cuz it seems like are their fingers normal >> cuz it's passed down. >> No. >> No. So they've got the issue with their hands as well. >> They're missing. Can't tell. >> Yeah. No, it seems like that it's with their hands as well. Yes. Look at her left hand. >> It's almost like an elephantitis kind of looking thing.
1:52:35>> Very weird. Whatever it is. So you could imagine if that exists and exists with multiple people in this tribe that a large head anomaly could exist as well. So, so you have the tall grays, the small grays, you have more than one version of reptilian >> from what I understand. Yes. So, I'm not an expert on that.
1:52:55What have you heard? I'll defer. >> Um, some look a little more humanoid. Um, from what I understand, once again, I'm hitting like the limit of my, you know, high confidence knowledge. >> More humanoid, but still reptilian. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Okay. >> And tall. 7 foot plus. big giant reptiles in the world, >> which I thought was so funny because, you know, that's like the skitso thing you hear out like in public, you know, the the big the big reptiles, lizards, >> whatever.
1:53:22>> Turns out that that's kind of a thing. And I just it's just strange. But once again, I I personally have not seen any of that. >> That is one of the weirder theories of ancient civilizations as well, that during the time of the dinosaurs, like let's >> let's imagine that human beings weren't the first intelligent creature.
1:53:40Let's imagine that there was an intelligent reptile >> and that this intelligent reptile had formulated a very complex society a 100red million years ago. Like why not? >> Like if if dinosaurs existed 100 million years ago, why not some sort of a reptilian type creature? Just we have a tiny amount of fossils just from the amount of dinosaurs that existed.
1:54:01>> That's right. And if these things had some sort of sophisticated disposal of bodies, if they had burning rituals, or if you know, if they never let their bodies just lay around and become fossils, we would never find them. >> Exactly. >> What is that called? Not Sorian. It's like there's a there's a there's a theory about that that people have.
1:54:21>> I'm not sure >> outside my expertise. >> It's a wacky theory because there's no evidence at all. It's just like what if you know there was an intelligent race of reptiles that existed alongside dinosaurs. >> Yeah, [sighs] that might be a thing. And that's also uh once again going back to bioengineered is it sourced from Earth genomic stockpile?
1:54:43>> Did they visit us from somewhere else? >> I I don't currently this planet. >> I mean they clearly have advanced technology >> but I don't understand the origin. But you're convinced that this is a actual phenomenon. That this isn't just a cover up for >> some top secret black ops programs. >> No, I would know cuz I was in the position to know all that kind of stuff.
1:55:06Unlike Elon Musk, I actually had all those clearances. >> And um we talk about Elon if you want, but interesting guy. But the uh the phenomenon is so old. We've been seeing the same objects for so long it rules out any kind of, you know, modern cold war technology. Now, have there been oops where people have seen our stuff?
1:55:28Yes. I won't get into that because that is a national security thing and I'm, you know, that's I'm very differential to that. But, uh, there's clearly a genuine presence. The phenomenon's old. Um, if you listen to the 1952 uh recording that Representative Burlson got declassified from MIT Lincoln Labs, you'll hear uh Edward Rubelt who eventually defected from Blue Book because he realized it was a cover up um in in the 50s, but he talked he was talking to the Beacon Hill study team at
1:55:59Lincoln Labs saying, "Hey, the the Air Force has ruled out mass hysteria. We're seeing during, you know, nuclear sites tests. Oh, by the way, in the White Sands Hollowman Air Force Base area, we we caught multiple objects traveling an estimated 3,500 miles an hour. We can't rule out maybe some sort of meteor shower, but we're seeing a lot of weird moving at velocities that we don't know.
1:56:23And in the recording, it talks about like we've rolled out, you know, foreign programs, etc. This is an internal recorded briefing between Lincoln Lab scientists and the Air Force that just got released in the recent trunch. And so that rules out a lot of um uh human activity. And so the the thought experiment or the the kind of the path I lead people it's like okay are UAP real?
1:56:47Well of course people have seen it will be you know more inclined to saying yes. But if you look at the the whole tapestry of information to include orbs that are accosting the federal government as we speak and there's a whole task force looking at it right now between OD and I and Department of War etc.
1:57:03And um okay, so it's real. They're interacting with man. So you don't think the federal government at one point tried to acquire some empirical evidence? Of course they did. >> Of course they did. >> They were they recovered >> But it is. Yeah. So it's like once you cross that Rubicon, you're like, well that makes sense why crash retrievals could be a thing.
1:57:24You think the government just passively studied it? Oh, we did a secret blue book and we were just like, you know, imaging stuff. No, no, baby. we're doing for material exploitation and acquisition. We're going to go get some of this when we get a chance when you know there's a mission failure or one crashes or lands for whatever other reason.
1:57:41So, uh that's once you accept that it's like a whole new paradigm in your mind like holy And then all this crazy stuff we're talking about with Nordics and the beings, it's it is wild but it's true. Like of course if you're recovering an artifact, you're going to get biological too. And and that's that's I think the the place where the the public's like has a harder uh cognitive leap where it's just so hard to conceptualize something you don't see daytoday that's a a living thing.
1:58:10It's like even more wild than finding some new uh animal in the Congo or some deep sea creature in the bottom of the ocean. Like we don't even know what's you know 70% of the ocean or something like that hasn't even been mapped. Something like that. I don't know the exact might be more than that. And you know it it's just shocking because it's just it's it's but it's familiar at the same time.
1:58:34You know a lot of it's bipedal and as the bilateral symmetry and it's just like what does this mean? Like it they're so similar. Are they organic life from another planet? Like how would it evolve in such a similar way? Are these like vonomy probes that are sent with occupants that are bio-engineered because they know on this M-class planet there's these homo sapiens sapient creatures.
1:58:53they look like this, this, and that, and they tweak a couple things, etc. So, it's I don't know all the answers to that, and I wish I did because I'm sure the public, you know, has a, you know, a big desire to know that, but I think eventually, uh, through the president's courageous actions, it'll it'll come out.
1:59:10And >> so, the intent of Project Blue Book was clearly to obfuscate. And >> yes, and you don't have to take my word for it. I talk about a formally classified Australian Joint Intelligence Organization document that was classified secret in 1971 written by a gentleman called Harry Turner who is the nuclear branch chief for the GIO which is the Australian equivalent of the Defense Intelligence Agency DIA and it's like page eight or 7 through 18 of the document which is in the Australian
1:59:43National Archives. The Providence is impeccable. Uh Harry Turner had a top-seeker clearance clearly and had contacts at CIA and America. And if you read a summary, it's like, yeah, Blue Book was a facade. The Air Force was really concerned about this. They wanted to figure out what was going on. Could they make use of whatever this technology is?
2:00:01and they created this um uh plan of ridicule and and disinformation unfortunately after the Robertson panel in 1953 to dissuade the public from looking in on it because the America was afraid of that being used as a false flag by the Soviets and there was other kind of national security objectives and that's publicly accessible.
2:00:22you can read it and that was from the Australian government's perspective what the cover up was in 1971 looking back from late 40s to present at the time and that's essentially the the the thesis of of Harry Turner. So of course this is outside looking in but he was very well informed and he um he traveled to the US and talked to the CIA a lot and so he he stitched together the the the puzzle in his mind of what he thought was going on.
2:00:49Well, it's also the statements of Jay. Allen Heinik, who left Project Blue Book and talked openly about his role during Project Blue Book, was to dismiss any and all sightings as being either some sort of a natural occurrence like ball lightning or meteor showers or planet Venus or, you know, just a misunderstanding and >> that he believed after all of his years in Project Blue Book that there was a real phenomenon.
2:01:17Exactly. >> And then after he left Project Blue Book, he became a UFO researcher. >> Yeah. A lot of was Donald Kho. There's a lot of, you know, James McDonald, Dr. James McDonald, and a lot of those OGs in this subject area that I only recently learned about because I haven't been following this until, you know, relatively recently realized it was real.
2:01:37And >> what do you know about the Richard Nixon Jackie Gleason story? I don't know if that happened, but based on Nixon's personality and he he he was knowledgeable on this topic, that might have happened. I don't know, but I could see Nixon doing that. So, >> well, it's a it's a fun one. And it's really particularly fun because Jackie Gleason built a UFO house after I did not know that.
2:02:02>> You didn't know that one? Let me show you the house. >> The house is crazy. It was for sale for a while. We thought about buying it, >> but >> where is it? >> It's in upstate New York, I Oh, interesting. >> Um, it is a very weird house. He built a house that looks like a flying saucer. >> Interesting.
2:02:17>> In the woods. And apparently, according to his ex-wife, he was obsessed with flying saucers. That's the inside. But show the outside. Yeah. No. No. The one down there. Yeah. Jackie of all people, too. >> They're separate buildings that he had on the property. But it was like basically like a UFO themed property.
2:02:33Like, what the hell's that, Jackie? >> Interesting. >> The are you making? >> His whole house looked like UFOs. It's very strange. >> Well, and with Nixon, there's the whole story uh with Robert Enegger and the promise of footage and and all that. And from what I understand, the MacArthur Foundation was kind of the the cutout for that between the the White House and the filmmakers.
2:02:54And obviously, it didn't work out, but >> So, they were thinking about disclosure as far back as the Nixon administration. >> Yes. And I know of an assessment that was done for Nixon basically saying it's going to cause absolute chaos. And it's interesting that assessment right after that assessment Watergate happened which is kind of very convenient.
2:03:15And so I I have some questions about that era as well because it seemed like there was some movement with Nixon. I don't know the rationale or why Nixon wanted to do it, but it seemed like there was um some energy. And that's what sucks is like so Trump's finally the first president to like overtly say I want all this out and like other presidents have failed and he he really has an opportunity.
2:03:36I mean it's the same thing I go uh back to the uh the Hillary Clinton thing, right? So in prior to the 2016 election, Hillary talked publicly and this is public record that if elected she would release the UFO files. So what happened was you know John Podesta green lit a uh called a climatization activity a popularization activity and you know that's why Tom Dong got his advisors that's why General McCasslin talked to him it wasn't because General McCaslin Robert Weiss at Lockheed other people
2:04:10that's all in Wikileaks um just wanted to talk to Tom because he was a rock star and you know was infatuated by his celebrity and wanted to help on a sci-fi movie it was because they were given top cover to see Tom as a public figure who had the touch of the youth um rightly or wrongly. I mean I once again there was an attempt and I'm not going to judge them bad or good but they were trying to prep the battle space uh prior to 2016.
2:04:38Obviously Hillary didn't win. Uh Trump won and clearly that activity pivoted and you saw kind of the collapse of uh the original TTSA efforts in my opinion. That's what I believe happened. Now, the characters that were involved in that are happy to tell their side of the story or more information, but from what I understand, they were trying to get, you know, Hillary.
2:05:00There was an inside job to prep the battle space for Hillary. Um, uh, Jim Clapper and some other people that I know personally were providing some top cover and, uh, and that was going to be the thing. So, the Clintons were trying to do it back in the day. Don't you think that that's also just a political ploy to get people to want to vote for you?
2:05:24>> Oh. Oh, certainly there's politics in that and obviously even in this current situation, you know, the president can use this for political ends, ways and means, whether making some threshold announcement for the upcoming midterms or by, you know, the 2028 election cycle. I mean, it could be used in in political ways, too.
2:05:40So, but it is a real topic and the government has real information on it, though. So, >> okay. So, so we've covered the grays, the tall grays, the little grays, the reptilians, various forms, the Nordic looking, Greek god looking ones. >> Yeah. And there's like a >> Isn't there like a mantis or two? >> Uh, in terms of the humanoid ones, there's like different kind of from very human to clear clearly not human, but humanoidish.
2:06:07But like you said, I have heard I'll call it water cooler talk within those channels of like you said some sort of insectoid. But I don't know anything about it if that exists. I I've heard you know like I said water cooler talk about it. Um I'm open to that idea clearly because of all this other stuff but I don't have any knowledge of that.
2:06:29um any high confidence >> any detailed uh description of the number of different types of entities and beings. >> I mean the program has that I mean I never I never I never have full access. No. >> Did anybody ever discuss it like how many they think they are? Is it upwards of 10? Was it more? Is it 20?
2:06:49>> No specific numericals. I only remember in passing having those discussions and of course I was sitting in Senate chambers when that crazy meeting happened where I found out you know they wanted to physically hurt me but um some of those were brought up in passing but there wasn't like a uh here's the exact number and here's the whole you know organizational chart I never got exposure like that so I unfortunately don't have that level of confidence on how everything is.
2:07:13So >> do you know what supposedly happened to those living reptilians from the crash? Uh uh deceased. They were killed. >> They were killed. Yeah. So we killed them. >> Yeah. >> Whoa. >> They are mortal. So it's >> So how'd we kill them? >> Yeah. >> Did we shoot them? >> Yeah. >> We shot the reptilians.
2:07:33>> Yeah. >> Jesus. >> Yeah. >> That seems like a bad idea. >> Yeah. I That's >> Maybe we should like tell them to call your friends and come get picked up. >> Well, it's the same thing as like if we force these craft down. Is that the best thing we should be doing? >> If we force it down. But it sounds like they were in a war with the Grays.
2:07:49>> Yeah. which is also, by the way, I realize kooky talk, >> but >> it sounds crazy, but I swear to God, I was in the most >> sensitive >> Oh, I believe you. >> places in government where that discussion was happening with >> Listen, if it was if it was real, there's no way it doesn't sound kooky. Even if it's real.
2:08:09>> I know. I know. And it even though I've I know what I know. I'm confident what I know, but just understanding this like new um normal that is eventually going to come out, it's just it still hurts my head, honestly. >> How could it not? >> So, >> um why did they do you know why they killed the reptilians?
2:08:27>> Um >> instead of just telling them to call their homies, >> it posed a threat. >> They posed a threat. >> Yeah. >> Oh, so it was defending itself. >> Yeah. >> Was a giant reptile. >> Yeah. So, at some point that story will come out. I'm sure the people who were in some of those events will probably speak publicly at some point.
2:08:44>> So, it posed a threat like it tried to attack the soldiers. >> Yeah, it's I'll let the people who were there tell their story. >> Can you tell like a little bit of it? >> So, I mean it just posed a threat and uh you know uh US personnel started you know getting hurt and dying and so >> so US personnel was killed by these reptilians.
2:09:04Yeah, I know. It's crazy, man. But >> what? Like, how many people were killed? >> I don't know the exact numbers. And once again, I >> So, it was like a fight. >> Yeah. I hope >> the fight broke out. >> Yeah. And I hope through this process some of those people are allowed to speak publicly about it.
2:09:17So, you could just hear it from the horse's mouth, not through me secondhand. You know, >> bro, boy, would I would like to talk to someone who shot a reptile. [laughter] >> You never know. You may >> imagine talking to some guy who shot a seven foot reptilian. I mean, you think you want to talk to the guy who killed Bin Laden.
2:09:34That's interesting. Talk to the guy who killed the seven foot reptilian that tried to kill people or was killing soldiers. >> I know. >> Sounds so goofy though. >> I know. >> While you're saying it, it sounds like this is and this is one of the reasons why people don't like to talk about it because it makes you look like a fool.
2:09:51>> And think about me, like I was a very serious intel officer. I had access to the most sensitive stuff like covert I was working on covert action activities all this and then all of a sudden I'm inundated with this ecosystem and I'm having to explain this you know to you know members of Congress you know my classified testimony and it's just like I sound like a crazy person and but >> but once again it's true and I know who I talked to I know what I saw and and I you know I clearly have some inkling of
2:10:21what's going on behind the scenes and and and this is a real reality, man. And it's [snorts] it's and I hope people look back at this interview and are like, "Yeah, Dave was really putting his ass on the line." You know, >> it sounds strange, but it's not nearly as strange as the universe itself. >> The universe itself is beyond strange.
2:10:38The the the infinite nature of it, the fact that there's stellar nurseries and black holes, like that's >> like what's dark matter? Nobody really there's no consensus on. There's wimps and all this other theories. >> Yeah. The whole idea of the universe is kooky as And so these beings, this is a very minor level of kooky in comparison to what we know.
2:10:59>> Well, when you think about it, you look at all the um credible military witnesses that have had encounters at nuclear sites. I mean, you even look at the Mario Woods and Michael Johnson case up at Ellsworth Air Force Base in the 70s, the Jesse Michaels just did an episode, >> and it's like, >> think about those military personnel.
2:11:18like you saw the emotion in their face talking about like I can't believe I'm talking about a gray pushing some sort of probe in me and it's like they're even more uncomfortable than myself because they are claiming that they experienced that and you look at Robert Hastings book book UFOs and nukes and all the different encounters military personnel have had sober trained observers that are not drunk on duty they're not high and um and I've had unbelievable highle serious people in and out of
2:11:50government privately pull me aside and tell me about their personal experiences and like they you're the only person I can tell you. I don't even tell my wife because I had this thing and this happened this happened. I I thought I was losing my mind but this really happened and it was and it's it's I think a lot a bigger part of the populace I think has had experiences than statistics would tell you just because of the stigmatization of the topic you know.
2:12:12Well, yeah. I mean, I don't know very many people that have had encounters, but all of them were very reluctant to talk about it. >> Oh, yes. And >> especially people with like credible jobs. >> Yeah. And it's the same thing like there's a lot of people behind the scenes that are very credible supporting me, talking to people behind the scenes to bolster my efforts.
2:12:28And they're like, I could never, you know, be public like you. And so I'm like, trust me, I don't want to do this either. like I I'd like to, you know, go back to work in the executive branch, put my uniform back on and uh go kill terrorists. I used to hunt warlords. Like I did a lot of crazy I used to do hostage rescue, do the Overwatch for that with certain JOC elements and I've had a I've done a lot of serious crazy in my career.
2:12:54Unfortunately, a lot of it was traumatizing and, you know, got PTSD from it. But um yeah, it's just a lot of people still even at where we are right now in the movie, so to speak, where we're on the threshold of possibly President Trump succeeding and his team getting this information out there. If they can, you know, uh broker a way ahead with the elements, I'll call it the deep state that are that are holding on.
2:13:17And and it seems crazy like, well, but couldn't the White House just, you know, break down the door? Like what why is there push back all that? Well, you think about like MK Ultra and how Richard Helms told Sydney Gotautle to destroy the records and the only reason why we know of MK Ultra is uh Seymour Hirs, right?
2:13:35The New York Times story, there was a leak to the Times. Then uh Frank Church and other people got uh information from whistleblowers and then they found the financial records that weren't destroyed um in 1973 through 75 and and also what they call the what's it called family jewels crown jewels where uh CI director Slesinger wrote down like all the bad stuff the CIA was doing that like you know we want to make sure this stuff doesn't come out and then there was like a 1964ish
2:14:07CIA inspector general report that was classified and clearly wasn't given to Congress and that's the only way reason we know about MK Ultra. It was reluctantly there was an oopsies, you know, and and part of this went public and and so I guess there's some historical parallels to to my journey and and and stuff on this issue, but and and once again MK Ultra like they had a drag CIA to they found all this other bad stuff, the heart attack gun, >> all the stuff in the church committee
2:14:33hearings and you know the >> operation midnight climax. Then there was um what's a funny name? I'm going to laugh about that one. >> That's the brothel. >> Was it? Oh, well people acid. >> Well, and then um you just saw there was a story coming out where they like sprayed the city of San Francisco in 1976.
2:14:50I was just out in SF Gate >> couple days. See how they could spread disease. >> Yeah. And then and then you had a mockingb bird where they had people on the payroll >> and and it's like okay that's kind of ethically dubious because it's domestic but influence foreign powers. Okay. the Smith Munt Act, a 1948 violation, sort of, you know, on and on and on.
2:15:08So, >> but I think what people really have a hard time comprehending is that if this is real and if we have been visited, why doesn't everyone know about it already? Why haven't they made themselves known? Why don't we why? And then there's also this weird thing if anybody that's actually experienced it like if you have a novel experience if you are going through a you know you're going through a national park in Utah and there's no one out there and then all of a sudden some disc shows up hovers over you lands
2:15:40some strange creatures you know come out of it talk to you telepathically get back in the disc and take off. >> Then you have the whole missing 411 stuff out there too I had that guy on too. >> Clothes are folded. I don't know the answer to that and I think >> so why isn't this more pervasive? I would say it's reasonably pervasive, but we see these craft using cover, concealment, deception techniques such as signature management, right?
2:16:01Like think of the cling on bird of prey cloaking, right? We >> we have seen that and and so they're they're masking their signature, but like as Jacqu Valet will say, there's some sort of control system. It's like a show and display thing as a stimulus for a lot of this. And then also, oh, why don't they overtly interact?
2:16:18That gets into like the exopolitique of this. I certainly am not conversant in that yet. I hope to learn more as the public to learn more about the objectives why they're here why there hasn't been overt contact but clearly interactions with you know the secular nation state governments and well what's the arrangement I don't know the answer to that and and so there's or is it um like the prime directive in Star Trek right where the oh they're pre-warp civilization we observe we're interested
2:16:50here we're studying the planet but we're not going to overtly influence their development because that's unethical according to our uh standards of behavior and norms and rules of engagement, you know, like like it is in Star Trek for example. >> Well, also just to to avoid any sort of unbelievably catastrophic just upheaval of society, you would do it very slowly like it's being done like today.
2:17:12The way it's being discussed is very different than the way it was being discussed >> 20 years ago. Right. So 20 years ago is 2016. We hadn't had or 10 years ago was 2016. We hadn't had the New York Times story yet. The New York Times story is 2017. That changed everything. I think 20 10 years before that, >> you talked about this stuff.
2:17:32You were a idiot and a kook. >> This is a cottage industry. And I also going back to kind of the pattern of lifinglessness, so to speak. >> I think the nature of the interaction was more overt antiquity. So something changed at some point in human history where going back to Greek gods and you know the and a whatever ends up being true we'll find out I guess in this process that seems more overt they're like you know uh mass kind of interactions but then >> well I'm sure you've seen those ancient
2:18:04changed >> those ancient paintings that it looks like a guy sitting in a craft that has like fire behind it and he's flying through the sky >> like what the is that >> yeah I'm not full uh chariots of the gods or whatever that book but like I think there's probably a happy medium that ends up being accurate and but it looks at the nature of the interaction does that mean a different group of intelligences and how many of them and the group changed and went away and there's like this new generation I don't
2:18:30know the answer to that but it does seem if you pattern a life it um the nature of their show and display their concealment deception their their force presentation so to speak you know to use kind of military talk has changed and clearly um they're they're less uh likely to do anything major negative or positive All right.
2:18:50For whatever reason, >> is there a consensus as to their origin? Because I know that or or is it do they vary wildly? Like there's a like timber shed has talked about the ocean. >> There is. Yes. The we know a lot about that. And >> what do we know about that? >> Well, be careful because it gets into sensitive Navy underwater things.
2:19:07Um there's clearly some sort of base of operations in certain locations. Um it's large. Don't know when it got there. So it's large >> large like multiple city blocks type stuff. >> Yeah. >> So there's multiple city blocks somewhere in the bottom of the ocean. >> Yeah. And it's like >> Yeah. >> Do you know what about the Baltic Sea anomaly?
2:19:34>> Well, the Yeah. The Yeah, the there's there's some interesting stuff there. And um once again, I [snorts] will allows the federal government to deal with that one in our allies and adversaries. So >> Okay. Yeah. >> Um but you did say that there's multiple city blocks under the ocean. >> Yeah. I will tell you underwater people I know um that come from that community, they're they always like, you know, the movie The Abyss, Dave, it's kind of a docu drama.
2:20:00And I'm like, "Holy fuck." You know, that movie, you know, with Ed Harris back in '89. And so that kind of gives you a sense in a pop sigh kind of way for people to visualize. There is large down there and it's like the origin is indeterminate. I'm sure we know a little bit more. I'm not privy to that.
2:20:21And and the way we know things and track that gets into sensitive national security stuff and um you know the government may have to reveal some of that through some sort of acknowledgement strategy. The way it's been described to you are these large city blocks or whatever the hell it is under the ocean.
2:20:36Is this a way point? Is this a stop off? Like a base for a base? >> Stuff comes and goes. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> So, this is like where they observe and >> Yeah. I'm sure we've done an anal a behavioral analysis on it and we probably have figured out maybe the mission or whatever you want to call it. >> I don't know the answer to that.
2:20:56I I'm as curious as anybody honestly. So, >> um, one thing I wanted to talk to you about because it just recently started hitting the news, uh, or Twitter at least. Someone sent it to me. Um, this guy Matthew Brown saying that you, uh, tricked him in a scop into revealing that there's you turned him into a whistleblower.
2:21:16Do you know the story? >> I didn't even know Matt Brown until right before the 2024 hearing. I never met the guy while I was a, you know, >> I sent it to you, Jamie. I I had to bring it up to you because a bunch of people >> Yeah, there's like some Make sure you ask him about this. >> Oh, because I because I was at the Shrivever War game uh highle cell advisor that I I somehow made fake stuff and and and and the the briefing that that Matt says he saw, I've never seen.
2:21:44I can't evaluate the contents of that. And and I didn't make anything. Um I've never made a hazing brief on this topic. I made some fun briefs just to with some of my airmen back in the day. Um, some Star Trek related stuff and just for, you know, >> but you're aware of this, right? So, what is he what is he alleging?
2:22:03>> He alleges intent exposure. He was cleaning up the file system on a classified system in I think it was like 2018 or something like that. And, you know, he found this briefing. Um, once again, I met Matt or talked to him for the first time in like 2024, well after I left uh the intelligence community.
2:22:22So, I didn't even know he existed. And um unfortunately, I've never seen a briefing like that, so I can't evaluate the the contents. So, um >> have you communicated with him after he said this? >> Oh, oh, oh, sure. Sure. Yeah. I mean, just to in support making sure he has resources. >> No, but I mean after he said that you soped him.
2:22:42Have you communicated with the assistant? >> Isn't that what it says? >> I think that might have been people saying that. >> Some other people saying in other words, >> that's news to me. Uh after >> so [laughter] that what what it is is other people alleging that that's how it went down. >> Yeah. There's a lot of theories online about like myself and oh, I'm being handled.
2:23:02Dude, it's just me. It's sad. It's just me and like my bros and like there's higher up people like helping but unfortunately like nobody's telling me to do X Y and Z and >> obviously if the president wants me officially involved I'm happy but like you know it I'm just a dude you know >> doing what I need to do.
2:23:21So yeah. >> Um what other weirdness of it before we wrap this up? What other weirdness of it do you think people don't know about it? Hm. You know, I think there's something to synchronicities and I don't have an answer why that happens. It just see like weird things just like happen or work out and and this is about as woo as I get and I just look at my own personal journey.
2:23:49um you know I was in like the right place at the right time and so many instances in my career to learn certain things that would help me later and like you know >> met certain people at the right time and and of course you know there's like a analytical bias most humans have where they're ascribing meaning to certain interactions that are actually truly random statistically random right >> but I've talked to enough people that say the same thing and I just there's something going there's a there's like a
2:24:19hidden hand part of the phenomenon that I can't there's like a certain Jennaqua I can't like point my finger on that I think is really interesting too but that's about as woo as I get I don't know >> that is the nature of the fabric of the universe or do you think that this has something to do with extraterrestrial >> I think that's like almost like going back to remote viewing because you know the Stargate program grill flame all the different names it had like that was adjacent to the program why do you think
2:24:45we were doing the psychic spying program besides competing with the Soviets and Chinese on the same topic is because That's the key unlock to some of the technology potentially if you could figure out how to it's a it's what like they call it like BCI brain computer interface but like clearly there's some sort of organic to tech interface and and it's clearly consciousness based >> um not to digress on your >> no but this is what Lazar said as well that there was no instruments and that
2:25:12these things controlled this with their mind. It depends on the class of vehicle and like there's like really weird that we have no idea how it works to like oh that kind of looks familiar. >> What's the weirdest of the really weird >> Um I mean you just have like the eggs and stuff. They're like usually unmanned >> usually and it's like is this like a probe?
2:25:31It's just it's like a egg, you know, like and um I know Jake Barber has talked about publicly recovering them, you know, and uh >> you know, I heard I you know, heard about that elsewhere, people who were were dealing with that. It's just kind of weird. It's like this amorphous thing. It's like the movie like Arrival, right?
2:25:48You >> right. That that's a great movie. >> Is Yeah. Is the technology like embedded in the skin? Like what is going on here? There's like no no obvious control surfaces like what what's going on? So, >> right. Um, what what kind of timeline do you think we're looking at in terms of like really changing the world?
2:26:08>> I think the the basic affirmation, the threshold disclosure, you know, call it we're not alone, we have stuff kind of thing. It has to happen before Trump leaves because I don't trust another president to follow through on the president's directive because, you know, it's the the the >> the next administration can be like, "We're peeling that back, baby.
2:26:26We're not touching this again." And so, of course, >> I think he has to do it before he leaves office. And if I were um advising the president and if the team's listening, I would do it at least 6 months before the election just so there's some sort of recovery period and kind of uh and whatnot. But, uh I'm just a dude obviously.
2:26:47I want it as soon as possible like most Americans listening to this. >> How do you envision that something like that would take place? Would they have a broadcast? where they show video and explain. >> That was a plan at one point for a previous administration is they were going to have like a one of those like government >> this the Bush administration with the how put off days.
2:27:07>> No, this was uh HW. >> Oh >> yeah. And so I'm sure the video sucked. It was probably has some synth wave government, you know, film from like the 1989 like, you know, and it was probably going to be horrible and dry, but there was going to be this like audiovisisual kind of a a companion to some sort of announcement.
2:27:27Now, I don't know all the the the specific details after that. Um, clearly there has to be a physical roll out for >> God, I hope that video exists. It's out there in the archive somewhere. We could watch it after disclosure. >> I know. We need to have like a throwback like what you know to see the old come.
2:27:43>> Well, if you think about like how long it's been that people have like slowly become more and more aware of this. It's it seems like a long time but our lives are very short. >> Yeah. >> And the the reality is if this thing this this phenomenon has coexisted with human beings and I guided us aided us in some way >> and that's why I don't think people should be too fearful.
2:28:05I mean obviously there's a yin and yang in the universe. There's malevolent, benevolent, but clearly there's some homeostasis going on right now. And there's been this called cohabitation, for the lack of a better way to describe it. And and and [clears throat] clearly nothing >> crazy has happened. So >> some of this is in conjunction with AI becoming sentient and that this was a part of the process.
2:28:29>> I don't know that to be a fact. However, I like I said earlier in the interview, I am fearful that AI is going to figure some of this out, whether it be >> tech technology stuff or um the fact that we're not alone just by looking at all the disparit databases and correlating data um especially if it gets connected to any sort of genetic record, medical records, sensing system.
2:28:53And I think that's a real um threat that if I were to advise the White House, they need to think about that like third-party unexpected disclosure pathway that super intell artificial super intelligence provides both from a technology risk perspective but also revealing some of this too and and once again uh you know that artificial siliconbased AI is like is that the infrastructure that we need to communicate to some of this organic intelligence too because it's able to learn and figure out
2:29:24modalities of communication. I don't know. So, >> it's pretty crazy. >> Okay. It's a lot to absorb, Dave. >> I know. >> Thank you very much for being here, man. I appreciate it. It's always great to talk to you and thank you for all your hard work and exposing all this stuff. >> I mean, I really wonder like if it wasn't for you doing all this, how much would we know?
2:29:42>> I don't know, man. I just I hope this is the last time I got to send it on on an interview. And uh it's been tough. Really tough. like it's been debilitating. I've gone through a lot, you know, it's been in danger and I've done a lot of stuff for this country over the years, but I'm honored to be that guy, I guess, and and and risk it all to, you know, unveil this truth because it really was a core secret of the United States.
2:30:06So, >> I certainly think it moves the needle. Yeah, I appreciate that. Thank you. All right. Bye, everybody.
Ancient sites and skull claims
2:30:18>> [music]
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